I regularly wear a pair of dark wash, wide leg trouser cut jeans with heels and a conservative top to interviews. They are fun and show a lot more personality and style than my boring black slacks, and I get calls back!

Angie I just always thought they should really spell it out in their policy (no faded, frayed, holey, worn denim) and then actually enforce it! And wow, Val that really surprises me- I wonder what industry you work in

I have always believed that jeans could be more than just casual-ware. To me they seem as basic as a pair of black trousers. I never look at someone and gauge how conservative their look is, I look at the whole ensemble and what care they took to look put together. A woman gets extra points when including jeans into her business attire!

This is something that would never fly where I work, which is a medical clinic. I am an administrative assistant. I just found out that we will be allowed to FINALLY wear capris at work! It blows my mind however because 80% of the staff wears scrubs…which in essense is like wearing pajamas in my book! (we can’t wear jeans, sleeveless shirts and we HAVE to wear nylons if we have open toed shoes, dresses, skirts, etc -UGGG)

I was going to be a rebel and wear jeans on the Friday after Thanksgiving, which I would have worn with heels, a cute top, etc. I mentioned it to someone and they said I would get sent home! Of course, I would have had to return to work…else I would try it every Friday!!

I know that the reason is because the area where I live (Central MN), most people dress very sloppily. You should see how they dress…it is rather pathetic. If they allowed jeans, most ladies would show up in “mom” jeans and a sweatshirt with an applique or all their grand kids names puffy painted on the front!!!

Susan D

Susan, I just spit coffee all over my monitor! I am a recent transplant to WI from the NYC area and I am amazed at what passes for fashion here. I sew a lot of my own clothes and even my worst “Becky-Home-Ecky” stuff is more polished than a lot of the stuff that the admin girls wear here. I get to wear jeans because I work in the lab. They don’t but, wow, would I love to do a mass makeover on them!

Our HR spelled out exactly the kind of jeans that are acceptable – darker washes with no blemishes. So far so good, no offenders! I am grateful for causal Fridays, not because I don’t like to dress up (I do like), but because it allows me to have fun with some more casual aspects of my wardrobe. I do see how it gets misinterpreted, and you end running into a bunch of frumpy people all day Friday.

Susan, I can’t believe they require women to wear pantyhose with open-toed shoes. That is so old school. Keep up you rebellious spirit!

As a teacher, I get away with dark denim jeans with a smart button-down or a knit. I also work with high school kiddies, so I need to be comfortable. Also, one gets bored of the typical black slacks. I think dark denim trouser or a skirt is a good alternative.

I agree that they should spell things out explicitly in the HR guidelines, because people will take advantage. I had a former employer that banned sandals that did not have an ankle strap because people took the notion of “sandals” and turned it into flip flops. I still thought the ban was ridiculous….a fashionable low heeled mule is no way on the same level as a beach flip flop.

But I also totally agree with your comments about things that they allow people to wear to work- ill fitting khakis and polos (on women!) and poor cared for comfortable shoes. And even still at my current place of employment they do not permit ladies to wear walking shorts, which became very in fashion a few summer ago in styles similar to dress slacks.

Danja – I clicked on your name to see your web site, but the link is broken. I was redirected to another site, but I am not sure if it is yours or not.

………last year we were finally able to WEAR open toed shoes.

Also, do you know how hard it is to find summer NON-Capri pants?? Glad we can finally wear them, however, I am only 5′2 and I think they aren’t the most flattering on me.

Susan D

Could not have said this better myself. I’ve been in corporate situation where people technically fit within the dress code but look sloppy and unprofessional. I agree, a pair of well fitting, dark denim with a blazer or other professional top looks pulled together and work appropriate, depending on the events of the day, of course.

I agree that dark denim trousers would be far more appropriate than many of the casual options people wear to work. BUT, I do feel for the poor HR people trying to set rules, because people will abuse them.

We had a “no denim” rule on casual Fridays, and I was stunned when my officemate showed up in leopard-print leggings! No kidding. She hadn’t broken the rule — but I ask you, how un-office-appropriate are leopard-print leggings?? I felt bad for the male VP who had to have one very uncomfortable conversation with her.

Bad taste knows no limits!

Like Susan D, I live in Minnesota…work in downtown St. Paul. I have no problem with a dress code that rules out jeans. It prevents the those who wear “ill-fitting khaki or corduroy pants with a T-shirt, cardigan and loafers” from dressing even more sloppy. And although the Khaki’s or corduroys may seem just as bad, I’d bet their choice of denim would be quite worse.

I absolutely agree that the right kind of denim can look smart and professional. However, I wouldn’t want to be the one to enforce a dress code that says some jeans are ok and some are not. Better to just say “no jeans”.

I was just complaining to my co-worker earlier this week that our other co-worker has shown up to work in jeans virtually every day this week. And they’re not dark wash jeans mind you; he’s wearing light wash ones in a baggy fit with a track jacket. We work at a school and while we can dress more casually during the summer, school’s still in session and so I think light wash jeans are totally inappropriate. Funny thing is, he showed up to work in jeans in November and got sent home by our boss. You think he would have learned his lesson.

I live in Silicon Valley, California and I’m not sure anyone has a dress code here anymore, which is a shame. People show up looking like they just came from gardening or washing their car: Baggy shorts, birkenstocks, torn vintage T’s, not to mention unkempt/unwashed hair, unshaven or beards that are in DIRE need of a trim. [Not to mention that it's unclear if they even showered that week]. I understand the ‘ Cally casual’ atmosphere and the need to be hip, but I’m a contractor so I’m always ‘applying’ for a job when in the workplace.

When I get asked “who’s getting married” when wearing a blazer, a button down shirt with some nice jewelry and a darkwash pair of jeans, things ain’t right.

my new go to outfit is wide leg dark wash denim pants with a crisp white button down with a silk cardigan with ballet flat type of shoe.
Denim is not allowed at my work place yet I have gone to meetings with upper management and was complimented on my outfit, while most have stuffy suits, in my department, we do not deal direct with clients so my appearance maybe over looked.
One of my co workers wears interlock pants and shirts (not professional at all) that are ill fitting. She if my age early 30’s, I feel my choice is better than hers.

Angie,
Please do a few flop proof outfits for nice business casual! I am desperate! I am going off to a top notch graduate school of business for a summer program and I need to look professional every day. I don’t want to just wear a uniform of black bottoms white shirt and gray sweater (boring). I am from California’s central coast and the only people who I know who dress up around here for work are attorneys and cell phone salesmen. I love your advice, especially the “flop proof outfits”!! Keep up the great blogging!

Kristers, I also work in Silicon Valley, and totally agree. California has taken the notion of “business casual” WAY too far. Some people actually make fun of me for “dressing up” at work, but I don’t care. I’d rather look neat and stylish than slacker/sloppy.

I think business casual dress should be abolished altogether for these reasons and more. No one can seem to pull if off. I personally hate casual business dress and just ignore it on Fridays. I work in San Francisco’s financial district.

Nadia, your comment about Central Coast dress is so right on! Why is it that the cell phone salesmen dress up?

I work in a very casual place. While technically the dress code says “Business Casual” it is definitely Smart Casual – they just don’t know the difference. I’ll admit it – some days I am lazy and am downright casual, but it is a small family place and it’s ok here; however, on most days I try to look presentable and smart. And yes, this often means nice jeans. I completely agree that people can often look better in crisp, dark jeans than in ill-fitting slacks or something perceived as dressier.

It’s an interesting debate as we have the same rules (but can wear a denim skirt any day we’d like.)

I SO agree with your assessment Angie.
Workplace dress codes are always so hard to write and communicate clearly in the first place (and sometimes so arbitrary such as the hose with open toed shoes rule) that adding denim to the mix can simply be too much of a headache I fear.
Having worked in retail management for the past 20 yrs, I can vouch for how hard it is to get large groups of employees to interpret the rules well. I think it is one of the reasons many retailers have gone to a “uniform” of basic slack (black or horror – khaki) and polo/golf shirt. What a horrible outcome!

My company went to a “business casual” with no denim policy about ten years ago. It worked fine in beginning – people who were used to wearing suits and ties just seemed to remove or mix up a piece or two with a more casual seperate. Over time however, things devolved downward.
It became hard in stores to have a seperate dress code for team who unloaded trucks, worked freight to sales floor, etc. and those who worked primarily selling. The teams were not cohesive in any way and sometimes those jobs overlapped.
It seemed that our corporate employees (planning, asst. buyers, admin) took the casual to a whole new level. Many were fresh out of college and didn’t understand how to step it up.
We were constantly having to create posters, fashion shows, breakroom demos. and yes, send people home to change.
Many HR issues arise in coaching people for dress code issues – if someone looks fantastic in a dress over leggings but someone else is wearing too tight leggings with a short top for example. The easier way to apply the laws/policy is to tell both they can’t wear leggings.

In any case, we evolved our dress code to “smart casual” but called it “corporate casual” and that helped. We still didn’t allow denim on paper (except for a few denim weeks each year – I hated those for the same reasons I outlined above – too much inconsistent interpretation!) but would allow a non-jean looking denim slack. So a trouser jean (no patch packets or contrasting thread) was ok.

Sorry to go on so long – I am very passionate about this topic!

I think it has to be spelled out clearly. Our business office has a rule for only dark wash jeans if at all. The rest of us (researchers and programmers) can show up in PJs if we wanted. I’ve seen some at work dressed almost in PJs sadly and also biking outfits all day seem to be common which bothers me a bit! Just because of this, I was shy to dress up when I first started there. I was so fed up with it and went back to normal in a few months. I adjusted my daily style to wearing jeans with nicer tops most of the time. Also denim skirts and jackets if I need to dress down some pieces. I don’t know what I would do if I were to work at a place with no jeans policy one day.

Oh my golly! I’m in CA central coast too (San Jose alot too) and I’m with you Cal-ie girls! It’s just gotten way too casual. I work in a very artsy community (costuming and stage) and while I’m carrying and moving and traipsing thru lots of stuff all day, I still try not to look like I just got up from sleeping on the floor of the shop or in my car. And yes, I see so much of that it scares me! You can be creative AND still look presentable AND appropriate. I guess for some people, you just have to spell it out. These people are supposed to be smart (I used to work with all engineers and programmers), but I think it must hurt their brains to dress like actual other people might see them. I, too have got the “do you have a court appearance?”, “are you going on a job interview” etc – when I even put on a skirt. Do you think maybe that why I get more gigs, ’cause I show up respectable and polished ?

I wear wide leg dark wash jeans to the office. No problem, cause I’m the office manager

fashionafterforty.blogspot.com

Our Dress Code policy had to actually spell out NO THONG UNDERWEAR! We had nurses wearing white scrub pants with a thong, which is clearly visible under any color scrubs. Not sure if they were hoping to “land” a doctor or what, but it sure wasn’t attractive!

Susan D

I agree that dark jeans that fit properly and that are in good condition are much more presentable than khakis, corduroys, or even dress pants that don’t fit, are worn out, or outdated. But it’s better to just have a no-jeans rule than to have people showing up for work looking like slobs. Besides, abolishing the jeans rule probably would not bring about any improvement. Those people who wear ill-fitting khakis and cords would very likely just trade them in for ill fitting jeans that are just as bad or worse.

Why is it that so many people grow to adulthood without enough sense to figure out what is appropriate attire and what isn’t. I’m glad that writing dress code rules/enforcing them is not part of my job.

Two things hold true here: Not everyone is fashionable, and not everyone knows (or cares about) what is and isn’t appropriate.

If whoever is setting the dress code rules is older than a certain age, it’s likely they will still think of jeans as something you wear around the house or over the weekend. It reminds me of that article someone posted on the forum about how jeans should be banned. Clearly these people are oblivious to the evolution of denim over the past decade and it will be hard to convince them otherwise with all the poorly-fitting, too-tight, too low rise jeans out there with all kinds of distressing and tacky embellishments. On an average day, I see far more bad denim than good.

I think clothing designers are at least partially to blame. There is a serious dearth of stylish and appropriate womens’ pants. Pants are either too casual, ill-fitting, or most of the time, both. The only other option is dress pants. Other than that, as others have mentioned, HR needs to be very specific about what is and isn’t permitted. Give a sloppy person an inch and they will take a mile.

Angie you are right in your assessment that business casual can get frumpy. However, I agree with most of the comments above. That the danger to include denim in business casual is how the interpretation might be. My previous company was very conservative so every one used to err towards the side of formal rather than casual..however..Fridays would turn the office into a frump fest. Same women(and men) who were so smartly dressed all week would go to baggy mom-jeans and ill fitting striped t-shirts!

However, I do want to note that I currently work in a company with business casual dress code in SoCal and havent yet seen the ‘too casual’ dressing in my workplace, that California seems to be known for. On the contrary even though we dont deal a lot with clients..I see everyone dressed really smartly in my office…with lots of pencil skirts and heels and pretty blouses and dark denim. It sort of keeps me on my toes. Even the scientists are dressed smart casually in their jeans and sneakers but nice tops and accessories. Of course I am a recent transplant to the state and live in orange county which can be called a slight exception to the rule since it seems to be bit of an ‘appearance oriented’ sort of place .

Angie – I’m curious to know what you, and the other readers, think of trouser jeans in a non-dark wash. I have a gray pair and fully intend to wear them to work, but what is your opinion? They are sharp looking, no tears or holes, and a straight cut. They also have ironed-in creases.

It just seems that even if you spell it out in company policy someone is always going to streatch that into something it’s not.

People are pretty casual, I always look over dressed. We attended a coctail party during the holidays and it was split 70/30. 30 percent of us had black tie dresses, and men with ties… 70 percent had…no kidding ..shorts, jeans , tennies and looked like they were going to a picnic. Out of about 200 people you can see how casual most people are.

Dressing denim up for work is a no brainer for some, but to the majority of people this means..wrinkled tee/ fadded out denim from the 80’s and tennies.

Just keepin it real…I see it everyday.

Problem with dress codes is that people interpret differently. Sure a bad pair of cords is no better than a pair of light denim jeans, but do you then have to specifically state exactly which shades of denim are OK, how much distressing or detail is on the jeans etc.? I’d also be banning cords and many chinos from the office if you’re banning denim!

One more comment: I used to work in a hospital and there was the written rule about wearing hosiery with open-toe’d shoes but I was under the impression it was a Health code rule to protect the worker from germs flying around. [And I'm thinking hosiery is that great a blocker for germs? Is that why some people run around with them on their head...?]

Nice to read that I’m not alone here in California.

And to K. Lauren, I agree that you probably get more gigs because of your appearance. A nice neat appearance makes one more approachable, don’t you think?

Kasmira – I like the sound of your grey jeans. So hard to find. I would try it.

I don’t care if my employees want to wear clown suits so long as they are doing their jobs and not meeting clients.

Frankly, I don’t see a big difference between khaki or corduroy pants + knitwear and jeans.
Now a crisp suit – yes, there is a difference.

I think this is a problem for companies. My company’s dress code specifically states no denim for business casual so clearly no jeans. However, as pointed out by several members, what some people consider business casual can be way more casual than a smart pair of jeans with the appropriate top, shoes and accessories. If they followed the dress code they would not be wearing what they consider business casual. Sadly, these are the same people who would not wear the right denim even with clear instructions. Companies have a difficult time policing dress code and managers don’t want to do it. It is simply easier to say no jeans.

Jeans are fine as long as it is clearly stated that they should not be frayed or too faded. They should have no holes or have that “rocker” look. Dark-colored ones are the safest.

i think a pair of dark straight cut jean with a nice top you can look very appropriate but you must make sure that the shoe are not to casual. add some accessories with the outfit

Full grown adults should be able to wear whatever they want, wherever they want. Dress codes are ignorant. People who disagree with this statement, in my opinion, are unimaginative and trapped within the societal box. They are not able to free their minds from the conformity with which we have all been indoctrinated. To me, it is ridiculous for a full-grown adult is told what to wear. Conformity is an offense to individuality. We are all individuals and that fact should be celebrated in every aspect of our lives.

My job performance is not affected by the kind of pants I choose to wear. I find that giving precedence to a superficial opinion of jeans as “low class” (or whatever problem corporate tools have with jeans) over the obvious rational conclusion that there is nothing really wrong with jeans other than truly meaningless superficial perception is stupid. Freedom for full-grown responsible adults to choose their own pants makes a whole lot more sense to me than reducing us to sheep of conformity without the freedom to pick our own friggen clothes! Dress codes and other conformity are tools of power exerted on us by our employers. I do not obey dress codes. I will quit a job if it becomes a problem. I will not be a corporate tool. I will be an individual human being.

Why so uptight about thongs? Here’s a great article (”Panty Ranting”) by journalist Mary Spicuzza about some high school girls fighting the good fight to wear thongs to school:

http://www.metroactive.com/pap.....-0050.html

Wear what looks good on you!
It be a pair of jeans or anythng…