So no one on Team Gimli then????! Bwahaaaaaaa......

LOL @ Shannon!!

I am not actually responding to the subject. Too busy watching the director's commentary on the extended edition of return of the king!

why do I only know 2 of the LOTR characters being discussed? Someone needs to post up pics for those not quite in the loop

for Mo

left to right : Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir, Legolas

I agree 1000% with Angie's eloquent response a few pages back.

I also identify most with MK's reply. I embrace pretty and aim for it most of the time. But I also have no issue expressing my strong thoughts and feelings so to quote mk underestimate me at your own peril. Go team pretty badass or team badass pretty haha

Una, this is an awesome thread! I love these deep subjects and it's awesome how we can all have different viewpoints but express them and respect each other. Very cool indeed.

Thanks I recognize them all, just didn't know 2 of the names. I have trouble paying attention to movies and TV. My BF can quote exact lines and I'm like, "have we seen this movie before??". lol

And here's Gimli (reference from Transcona Shannon):

wow, what a discussion. i think of "pretty" as an overarching style descriptor. alaskagirl, your style can be authoritative, assertive, uwp, rate, etc. and still be pretty. it's not an either/or. my only issue with the term pretty is that to me, it has a feminine connotation and i try to stay away from gender loaded words. but in general, yes i try to be pretty. but i also try to be professional, assertive, in charge, etc. i don't think thing pretty as a style descriptor takes away from other style goals.

I have a hard time telling any of the LOTR scruffy males apart TBH. At least I can pick out Legolas from the crowd.

Honestly I think this whole kerfuffle is not about the word pretty. I think it's about the phrasing of:
You look more attractive in this photo than any other I've seen of
you. Before you return this gorgeous, flattering tee, please ask
yourself why you don't want to look pretty.

However it was meant, it reads as if Alaskagirl did not look pretty/attractive/good/pick-your-term before, and is sabotaging herself now. So, if it was meant that way, I personally would have responded negatively. And if it wasn't, it's a good lesson in thinking about how someone else may read what you write!

Finally finished reading this whole thing!

I personally don't strive for "pretty" per se. On the other hand, I strive to look good in whatever way I can, and I feel like "pretty" (along with its close cousin "cute") is kind of the lowest-hanging fruit of looking good for someone with my appearance and taste in clothes. And I'm fine if that's what other people see.

I think looking "pretty" (with a big focus on practicality and a little quirkiness mixed in to cut the sweetness) is probably also authentic for me in a way that a more directly challenging aesthetic wouldn't be. But I can completely appreciate those who go in different directions. And I agree with others that I'm not a fan of prettiness presented as the only thing women should be aiming for with their looks and clothing choices.

Yes Team Pretty Badass! LOL

And Legolas definitely isn't scruffy! He bats for Team Dressy and Team Polished!

Another one for Legolas. And he was very badass really!

Legolas being bad-ass: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DvBE7Vt7Vg

Hahaha! If we are going there some of my friends were Team Hobbit!

Agree that there is potential controversy in the question itself, as IK and others point out. But I decided not to take it that way but to explore the idea of pretty itself for me.

Here's the thing; I feel women often tell other women they look pretty in the same way we will say "You look thin!". It's an unspoken given in our culture that thin and pretty are always better than the alternatives. NOT here at YLF where people are more aware of different style goals and body positiveness, but Out There.

And often it is a generic compliment because let's face it, who is going to say "wow, you look like you could handle an apocalypse with ease!"

Let's say I was aiming to look truly androgynous and NOT pretty, and someone said to me, "You look pretty!".... I wouldn't be insulted but I wouldn't feel I'd accomplished my mission. On the other hand, if as Angie says, pretty can stretch all across the spectrum then how can I measure it?

Does anyone remember the episode of Seinfeld with the ugly baby that the hot male doctor calls "breathtaking", after calling Elaine the same thing, and she's all offended? Not only is pretty in the eyes of the beholder, but the MEANING of pretty as well - and that is where I suspect the disconnect arises.

MaryK, I feel you are the definition of pretty as YOU define it! Being a small Asian female means always being underestimated. And you inspire me to carry on and prove them all wrong.

Beth Ann, I am dying to hear more from you. I never thought of pretty as having an expiration date. Look at Jessica Tandy - pretty/beautiful always....

And Greyscale, can you ask your transgender friends that question? Have you read "She's Not There" by Jenny Finlan Boyle about transitioning as a middle aged college English professor, male to female? She talks about shopping for women's clothes and being just as dowdy (las a woman as she was when a guy... I kind of appreciated that perspective. Not everyone has to transition to Jessica Rabbit!

MaryK you ARE powerful.

Fascinating discussion--thanks for bringing it up, AK.

Holy crap, 5 pages and discussion and counting! [Even if ~ 2 were LotR-related.]

Una, the worms are out of the can. Great that you're exploring vs knickers-in-a-twist.

I'm in the camp of "words have meaning, until they don't."

Pretty is one of those words for me. As so many have eloquently described upthread, it carries a lot of societal baggage (ditto "ladylike" IMO) but often those who use pretty mean it in a generic way that encompasses attractive, gorgeous, beautiful blah blah. Which may still press buttons.

Personally I have a really narrow definition of pretty -- girlish, youthfully feminine, delicate, symmetrical features.

But when people wear colors (clothing, hair, and/or makeup) that flatter them I tend to think "oh, so pretty" -- and risking ageism, I'll say maybe it's the youthfulness/softness angle since the opposite of young in that sense is a look that's agING, harsh.

I find pretty (by my standard) young women often evolve into pretty older women, whereas those of us who didn't/don't meet the definition can end up self-describing as any number of subjective words -- some more gendered than others -- handsome, chic, beautiful, attractive, interesting-looking, womanly, etc....

Una, since your style tends to RATE/tomboy/edgy which by definition isn't about softness ("prettiness") I do think Catnip's is intriguing and hope you'll answer! /nosy

LOVED reading all this yesterday, and had to Google the men in question as well- go Aragorn
I am one that considers my DDs to be pretty, but don't like the word for grown-ups at all!
I agree that your top was 'pretty'.
'Pretty' when I was growing-up got me into trouble, so I would so rather be complemented on my overall style than my face.

Popping back to add a link to a (sewing) blog post I read years ago that always stuck with me: You Don't Have to Be Pretty. My very favourite line is: "Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked "female"." So empowering.

Also, I need to join Team Faramir as well as Team Aragorn. And if we're talking dwarves, I'm all for Richard Armitage/Thorin! Even in his crazy Dwarvish getup. heehee

Dude, no one told me Richard Armitage was an option. He has my vote.

Also, I tend to use the word lovely instead of pretty to describe something on someone else - especially in real life. There's too many ways that pretty can be misinterpreted, I think.

Well, heading out for a walk on a windy spring day, but I popped up to say that I think I"m struggling with the expectations of my environment --- an environment that so very nicely but persistently hints that "pretty" is only for the young and thin. I live in a very conventional middle-of-the-road suburb. Lots of sports teamwear, but no boyfriend jeans. Pretty is just for high schoolers, and we all seem to live vicariously through our children or the celebrities we follow. I care for a lot of these people, and I don't mock their choices, but I always feel a bit out of step. I'll gladly listen to Beyonce, but it's Barbara Bonney singing Strauss and Copland's Emily Dickinson Songs that is loaded in my car's sound system. I don't stick to black pants, but gladly wear cobalt on my size 14 arse. Very few of my contemporaries would consider that.

I am inspired by many older women, and find them lovely and, yes, even pretty: Jessica Tandy, Helen Mirren, Susan Sarandon, and many women on this forum! I think we often associate "pretty" with a certain uplifting mood and freshness. I do think some older women "radiate" this quality, even with wrinkles and age spots. Some manage to find spiritual wisdom and know how to love oneself without being the slightest bit self-absorbed They can dress in a way that is generally seen as "pretty" and still seem grounded and the farthest thing from vain.

I just move forward -- keeping spiritually grounded myself, and dressing in a way that makes me feel, if not "pretty", exactly, lovely and alive without trying to hard to prove something. This is behind my new style acronym: "SING" --- dressing with simplicity, imagination, nuance and grace.

Coming out of semi-retirement because this thread is irresistible. My two cents:

1. "Pretty" as a compliment or description of an item: Fine. Sounds a bit twee to my ears at 65, but, hey, a compliment is a compliment.
2. "Pretty" as an aspirational goal--not for me, but, if it works for another, why not? My aspirational goals for dressing are more likely to incorporate words like elegant, creative, sophisticated, and self-confident, but that's my bent and it certainly doesn't need to be another's. And while I can see "pretty" being useful in certain circumstance, and understand the power in being underestimated, I prefer to wield my power in a more straightforward way. Same goes for compliments involving words like "hot". Definitely in the boudoir, but not from random males. As a teenager, I shuddered at the "you are pretty" comments because my tribe, like Rachylou's, just viewed symmetrical, conventionally pretty, features as genetic luck. "Hot", too, just made me feel like a male fantasy instead of an intelligent individual.
3. Aragon, of course, but the one in my imagination when I first read the Trilogy in university. If I'm looking for a movie image, I'll take Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke--those blue eyes and that image of him without a shirt seared into my impressionable teenage brain and I've never found another that compared. Although Caro's reference to Alan Rickman made me realize Paul has a close contender.
4. Finally, I'm nodding my head that replacing "you look pretty" with "you look lovely", or "you look wonderful" seems like a fine idea. Somehow "lovely" (or "wonderful" or "delightful" or even "good") seems to incorporate all that is pretty, but with a breadth and depth that make it more inviting and less contentious.

Mm, if we must vote on LOTR men, then Legolas gets my vote. I have a thing for tall (VERY tall) blonds...

Though without the height impediment, Thorin wasn't too hard on the eyes, either.

I am fascinated by this thread and how much feeling the word pretty evokes.

I am certain I have used the word pretty to describe you Una and meant it only as a compliment with no disrespect for your other attributes. I am quite sure you understood that.

My natural expression is a frown - resting bitch face. When I was younger I was frequently told by strangers to smile. I scowled. I do look prettier when I smile no doubt.

To me pretty is pleasant to look at without being threatening or challenging. It is nice to look at pretty things and I am happy to look pretty sometimes, but it is more thrilling to look stunning or edgy because these, along with truly beautiful, also unnerves the viewer and makes them look away. You don't turn away from pretty.

On the other hand, pretty coupled with other attributes is a powerful combination. MaryK I want you on my side!

Anyone else have Julie Andrews singing in their head due to this thread? I seem to have persistent issues with earworms.

Hmm, only one person acknowledged my question.
The reason I asked if you have a significant other: I believe it's easier to opt out of pretty standards if you have a significant other who finds you attractive on a fundamental level. It shows a certain degree of privilege.

annagybe, I am married and I strive to be pretty in terms of the WNTW reference early in the thread ... that is, not necessarily wearing "pretty" things as looking pretty myself - having some make-up on, looking polished, fresh and healthy, etc. even in a tee and jeans.

I definitely do this for my husband. Although there's no pressure to be picture-perfect, I think it would not be well-received if I let 'pretty' go completely (nor would I appreciate if he let himself go). I also try to stay "pretty' for myself because I just feel good when I'm pulled together and polished up a little and a little bit feminine and glossy. But it's my 'pretty'. Back to definitions of terms!

Definitely before we were married, I was more focused on my appearance. My husband will still say he appreciates figure-flattery (that's about all he would notice! that and a cool color) For sure at the beginning, appearances matter, if only because it's the first round of information a person has to go on. To make it the only thing would be pretty shallow, but it's bound to be something.

I think the trouble starts when we are held (or hold ourselves) to standards that neither reflect who we are or what we aspire to be. I tried to be pretty (by my def.) because I like pretty, and lo, I met a man who likes pretty. You don't want to attract someone who wants somebody you don't want to be, that's for sure. Exhausting prospect. Best foot forward and all, but it must indeed be YOUR foot!

At the end of the day, the word 'pretty' itself is fairly innocuous, it's the energy behind it that makes it positive or negative, imo.

Think I took that on a total tangeant ... sorry ... but thanks again AG and Catnip for a terrific and fascinating topic. Jeez that was a long response. Sorry again!

Anna: I'm sure having been with the same man for 30 years colors my feelings about looking conventionally pretty. I think you have to dress and present yourself in a way that works best for you. Your style has great flair and edge, which goes so nicely with your soft blond hair and fair complexion --- like something out of "Game of Thrones." As for what attracted my man? He is oblivious to dress. I hope it was my character, which he knew something of because we hung out in the same group in college. If it was anything physical it was my hair. He complains about it being too short now. It was waist length then. Really l-o-n-g hair is the oldest story in the book. Of course, I was 18 when he met me.

I don't agree that the tone has been strident. I think people are just mulling over an interesting idea. Thanks, Una, for asking the question!

I have a DH. However, I think that having a spouse or SO can work in the opposite manner from which Anna assumes. Many women ask their DH's opinion about clothing, and it goes without saying that many men just simply don't "get" a lot of trends. Many men prefer something far more traditionally "pretty".

While single, I didn't think even once about what a man might consider attractive, and I dressed in full-on UWP. DH met me then, and he was obviously attracted to me then, so I don't much worry about his opinion now!

torontogirl makes an excellent point in saying that we cannot hold ourselves to a standard that doesn't embody who we are. We cannot dress "pretty" for the sake of others if that isn't who we are, because that will make us appear uncomfortable in our own skins and unhappy to boot. Finding a partner has everything to do with being and dressing like who we are, not what we imagine some other person might want us to be. I don't think being single ties a person to "pretty" any more or less than if they were married.

Hi Anna,

No, I don't have a significant other. I've been a widow for 12 years after a long, reasonably happy marriage. I'm chiming in again because I want you to know that life can be great without a partner. After my husband died, I thought I would never be happy again, but I am... and not because I've found someone else (not easy at age 70). I've found good friends, many interests, and the pleasure of being myself. Please don't be an embittered singleton. Life is too short for bitterness, whether about your looks or your partnership status. My next door neighbors are a young, attractive couple who last night had the fight of the decade. It was so bad I was on the verge of calling the police when someone from building management came up to investigate. Things are never what they seem to outsiders, and there are many pluses to living alone. I met my husband only after I had given up on ever meeting anyone and decided I needed to get on with my life.