Hi There!

In short, yes, I aim for pretty. Being edgy, avant garde, fashion forward etc, are goals in my head, but pretty triumphs everything. What is pretty? Well, we have had the best minds: Poets, scientist, writers et al, on the pursuit of that very definition. I think beauty is indescribable and undefinable. I think that beauty is in everything and everyone. I do not think it is a loaded word or a sellout.

I do want to look pretty, yes I do!

And this thread continues to evolve in fascinating directions. Catnip, thanks in particular for chiming in again, especially since I put you in the spot in this post. And GAYLENE! Don't retire from YLF! If nothing else, comment on the musing threads!

Anna, my story is much like Echo's - when Iet DH I was rejecting pretty as definitively as possible. And the more I got to know him the better he looked.

Anna-

I have been with my SO for 23 years, married for 20. My hubs loves me for who I am and tells me I'm beautiful and sexy on a regular basis. I defy convention and am not considered conventionally beautiful. I do what I want and still receive the best compliments from my husband all of the time. He loves me the way I am and I swear that he love me more than I do myself. Bless his heart, because it makes me feel amazing!

I wasn't pretty when I met my husband and am not pretty now. I dressed and looked like this when we met, so clearly he either likes it or is willing to look past it. I'm not sure how this shows privilege, AG. I haven't gone to seed since we met! If anything, *he* now dresses better. Thank goodness.

What a fascinating discussion, and it's been interesting to read all the various perspectives. I don't aim for pretty -- or for edgy either, though setting those two up as opposite choices is revealing in itself. I sometimes aim for attractive, polished, confident, eclectic, or functional funky, but pretty isn't me. I have my own charm, but I'm not pretty, never have been, and if I'm honest, one of the blessed things about getting older is letting go of that old ache of "not being pretty." I'm finding I can become confident and stylish in new, different ways. In my life, pretty has been caught up in a lot of unpleasant, sad, destructive things, and codes of beauty that I couldn't fit, so good to be able to move on from that.

If someone is aiming for pretty, go for it and I offer my hearty support -- we may all aim to be authentic in our own ways. But I can understand that for some people, it's difficult to empty the word "pretty" of some difficult associations based in our own personal experience. It's not a word that can be declared neutral when to some women, it's not. As always, to each her own!

I'll chime in re: having a partner and subscribing to the belief in "pretty." Hmm. I am vain. I always have been. I think I'm the kind of person who *can* look pretty if you catch me at the right angle, with the right light, on a good hair day, etc., but I don't have that symmetrical willowy model-esque conventional beauty so valued in our society. I've always been insecure of my looks, and when I was younger, I tied a lot of my self-worth to whether men (or a particular man) found me attractive. Just being totally honest here. I had (and still have remnants of) a lot of hangups about attractiveness and self-worth. I am the child of a perfectionist and learned to turn a critical eye on myself from a very young age.

Now that I'm older, I know I will rarely be "the prettiest girl in the room" (even if I ever was), and I now realize that it's not important. At. All. Thank goodness! I do want to convey some type of attractiveness, and at this stage of life, whatever word the onlooker wants to use to label it, I'm OK with that, whether it's pretty, cute, beautiful, striking, or even though I cringe at the word being applied to me, handsome (sounds too mannish to me). These words are all defined by the user -- like Una says, one person's "breathtaking" can be another's not so much.

My husband and I have been a couple for almost 17 years, and he still compliments my appearance (as well as other qualities) on a regular basis. I do still want to "look pretty" for him as well as for me, but I don't know, is "pretty" the right word? I'm actually trying to remember the last time he used "pretty" when he complimented me, and I can't come up with it. He has used beautiful, gorgeous, sexy, hottie, etc.

I guess I do strive a little bit for "pretty" in how I look, but not "pretty" head-to-toe. I will wear a pretty top or a pretty pair of shoes, or maybe even my hair will look pretty. I dare say that when my husband and I go to a more formal event -- a wedding or an event with his business colleagues, my "pretty" style comes out more, and the rock'n'roll side takes a back seat. But my ideal preferred aspirational style mixes a little bit of pretty with other things that seem more interesting and more true to my personality and my identity.

Wow, 6 pages and I read every response. Do I aim for pretty while dressing? no. Pretty, to be honest never enters my thoughts. I describe my style as Urban Night Warrior. I choose to dress in a manner that I believe to be sexy, empowering, beautiful, and attractive.

"You look more attractive in this photo than any other I've seen of you. Before you return this gorgeous, flattering tee, please ask yourself why you don't want to look pretty."

I believe when a compliment is given it can also be given in a backhanded way I believe this to be a backhanded On the one hand a compliment is given but, on the other side I take away that pretty compliment by saying If you return that item "Why don't you want to look pretty". Maybe catnip did not mean any offense but, But I would have taken it as such.

I think pretty is a good solid word. I believe also that we say, or type things that can be perceived as negative. We are human and sometimes we say the incorrect thing. But it is the receivers choice to dwell or to move beyond what is said.

Now to the real meat of the subject. TLOTR
Gimli: I find has all the qualities I admire and find attractive in a person
Aragon: Is beautiful in his own tragic own way
Legolas: Beautifully, beautiful
Gandalf: Mature attractive

I don't find any man in this trilogy "pretty" only Arwen and she is a pretty woman.

I don't know that I absorbed Catnip's observations before. The flattering nature of the tee's colours and so forth. That may be true, I don't know, because the overall effect to me freaked me out. It does still right now just thinking back to the picture. In fact it's sort of seared on my brain as a... horror. Not that Una looked bad, but I did feel she looked simpy.

So to put this another way - I think it's really interesting that Catnip thinks the tee is pretty and I feel it's simpy. Maybe that's one of the problem's with "pretty." It's not that pretty = weak, but different people look at the same thing with this certain quality and one feels it's weak and another pretty. There's just something about pretty/simpy, where the line is blurry maybe.

ETA: But towards each end of the spectrum, it gets more clear. You know, for the record, I never once put the word pretty to MaryK's style. Although, reflecting, I see MaryK has a lot of pretty elements. I don't know why; the gestalt effect of style perhaps.

I am with rachy in that my subjective definition of pretty cannot account for MaryK. She reads powerfully feminine rather than pretty in my language.

Now, forgive me for being less than introspective or articulate for the next bit... A year,s sleep deprivation does that to your brain (una will understand the bheja fry reference here)...

To try and answer both AGs at once:
I HATE with a passion being called either pretty or cute. I was not yet a teen when I last aimed for pretty... Much water under bridge since and I view both words as fluffy and borderline condescending at this point. I have in fact often had to grapple with the 'take the compliment as it is meant' reminder when I have been complimented with cute on this forum a few times. It is a lasting battle when you are a dimpled dumpling who is not yet 5 feet tall and never will be... Except in your everyday fantasy!
My SO on the other hand IS pretty. (Team Legolas, then Faramir, if you please!) and 'pretty' is his favourite positive adjective. Our son in pretty. The sun is pretty at sunset. The violently colourful batik sarong he got me that I will never wear is pretty. His car is pretty. The lights we are debating are pretty. The taps likewise. The tiles too. Our house is pretty or should be. A book with a fab cover or a particularly hefty Dutch oven are pretty... I encounter plenty of pretty since I met him. (He hates wearing florals though... But he did unlike me play nice and wear a floral shirt i got him that he was seriously uncomfortable with.)
I like pretty men. And I hate to acknowledge the truth that I read the word differently if you remove gender:feminine from the equation. In fact, this is apparently how my SO uses it. and he now knows not to use either word for me. Because like Diana and rachy, hearing pretty or cute makes me want to turn around and go back to change... Or spend the rest of the day in a tizz because I am clearly sending the signals OPPOSITe to what I intend. In dress, then, I aim for interesting, or ethical, or unusual.

Hmm, Manidipa. Now I have to wonder more about experiences that feed into my recoil from the word "pretty." Of course, there's the emphasis in my family that's placed on smart, interesting, unique, good lines, good principles... pretty doesn't come up.

But then there was also the matter of cliques when I was young. Whenever I changed schools or went off to summer camp, I'd start off in the pretty party clique. I have an airhead side to my personality. But a few weeks in or so, I'd be driven nuts and feel a terrible desire to get away from these people. Like I remember my bunk mates and their trunks of hairspray, the curling irons, the ridiculous discussions on the merits of aqua fresh (tooth whitening! fresh breath! dental care! in one paste!). We were in the forest! There were no outlets! Why were they poisoning the wildlife with their hydrofluorocarbons?!

I suppose I've become *Death Before Pretty.* I have bad memories.

Manidipa, what a thought-provoking response.

And in addition to gender, we also need to consider extrinsic knowledge. We forum members KNOW MaryK and know better than to associate her "pretty" style with the negative connotations that pretty may invoke. She is undermining pretty by embodying it and shifting the paradigm, much as I like to shift the paradigms about Asian women. For example, I've surprised other people when they are talking rock climbing (and climbers can be as exclusive a group as any other group) and I'm able to chime in about the finer points of a particular 5.11 down by Mile 47 of the highway, or the best way to set up an anchor. I both resent and enjoy that their assumptions are being challenged..., I climb, ergo Asian women are climbers. MaryK is strong, ergo pretty women are strong.

But what if you don't know someone? What would I be saying to strangers about how I want to be perceived by dressing pretty? I confess that pretty gives me the same reaction as you. I felt a bit "simpy" as Rachy put it - and there's no reason to do that to a perfectly lovely tee that someone else will love!

I also want to respect the desires of forum members to be who THEY are and advise them accordingly.. I appreciate that y'all know me enough to tell me that something is too pretty for me. And if I needed to look pretty, I would make sure I stated that clearly.

I love the turns this thread has taken, and how everyone who has commented has moved it along so thoughtfully.

Rachy, why so strong a reaction to this shirt on another person? If someone else with a more congruent style wore it, would you transfer the same association? I'm really curious about that now!

Boy, that is such a good question, Una! I'm trying to pretend you're a complete stranger and I'm seeing you, oh say, in front of me in line at Starbucks, and can only assume I'm doing a very bad job.

I'm guessing if this were the case, I'd probably not see you at all. If for some reason, I was forced to see you, I'd be working really hard at being courteous and amusing, while having a difficult time bringing you into focus and working strenuously not to accidentally create any sort of relationship with you.

All because of the shirt. I have to be honest. My neighbor's boyfriend is such a case for me. His hair is long, and he doesn't wear deodorant. My mom is at my place all the time using the internet. He mustn't ever knock on the door such that she must open it to him. I will have done A VERY BAD THING. At the same time, you know, he grew a beard and mustache and I didn't notice...

If I saw someone else with a more congruent style... I really don't know. If it worked for them, struck me as pretty not simpy, maybe. But I can still hear in my head my mom saying, "Someone in this white tee with floral thingies knocked on your door. Who was that? Tell them you're at work all day and not to come by."

Lol. Ok. Yes. I'm scared of my mom. Which I feel is only right and proper. I mean, when I met bf #3's mom - whose house was covered in giant pale pink roses (walls, sofa, rag dolls) - my fear was extreme. I knew my mom was going to eat this woman alive.

Yes. I'm terrible. I'm a shallow airhead.

ETA: Oh, but I do myself have a sofa covered in floral chintz. So I break the rules...

Great point, Una, about making sure one doesn't present a misleading picture to the world. I keep that in mind, too. I do aim for pretty, but I also aim for my look to SAY "strong" and "powerful," and if you can't see those elements because you are blinded by the "pretty," well, that's where "underestimate me at your peril" comes in. Because I've given you all the clues you needed to figure me out.

ETA: Coming back to say, after giving this some more thought, that although I do aim for "pretty," it is further down on the list than "powerful," "formidable," and (here's an awesome word that we don't see used much in the fashion context, but which to which I aspire in both the fashion and non-fashion contests) "smart."

maryk's last comment is my mantra as well. well put.

and, annagybe, yes i have a significant other.

Rachy, you are beyond compare - you must write a book!

MaryK, I'd say you embody all those qualities admirably in your style - without knowing you, if I saw you I'd think, "That is one smart woman with places to go, and where DID she get those rainbow shoes?" Hence Business Bombshell really is an apt style descriptor.

Such an interesting set of reactions to such a simple word--you come up with the most provoking topics, Una!

As I'm reading the responses, I can't help but think, for many of us, the conventional concepts of "pretty" as an aspirational style start sliding down the list as we grow older and become more aware of who we are as individuals. The kind of aspirational "pretty" that lingers is more likely to be there because of the way "pretty" makes us feel internally--a very subjective, put-a-kick-in-my-step-and-smile-on-my-face emotion rather than an attempt to force myself into a conventional definition of "prettiness".

Which brings me to Anna's point: the "prettiness" I'd currently display at my age is far removed from the more conventional prettiness I might have aspired to when I was much younger and wanted to be noticed by the opposite sex. Nothing sweet, delicate, youthful or girlish---more sassy and lighthearted with a decided tinge of humor and quirkiness, which might not even read to an outside observer as "pretty", but which would be noticed by my husband and others who know me well. A grown-up kind of "pretty" that is strictly MY version--and, even more important, my choice as to when and how it is deployed.

My DD (10) and I just discussed this post in-depth. My girl is not necessarily the voice of the new generation, but she definitely has an opinion.

"Pretty is a feeling and everyone can be pretty. Pretty is not a label or a special club. It is an emotion. You can look at something or someone that appeals to you and think a happy thought "That is pretty!". You can do something nice that you like to do for yourself (put on lotion or braid your hair ) and think "I am pretty." Pink is not just pink or girly. It's a confidant happy feeling."

Kids tell it like it is and she is genuinely puzzled by fabbers who say they were never pretty/are not pretty because even based on limited visuals and no experiential interaction, she sees pretty--she really does. I'm with her.

Ha! LACeleste, my kiddo is 10 and pretty is the epitome of everything she wants in her fantasy idea of her life. Maybe later she'll be like me and start slicing and dicing her words, but for now, sparkly and pretty are all she needs for life to be triple-A-plus.

By the way, my husband agrees that I am not and never have been pretty. But, he says, I am very "alive." I'll take it.

I'm coming back because, after reading so many strong anti-pretty reactions, I've been thinking a little more about why I don't have a problem with "pretty" being applied to myself or used in general.

At some level, what I think it comes down to for me is this:

Ever since I was a kid, I've felt a bit lacking in all kinds of appearance/presentation-type traits. I'm ridiculously short. I've never been that thin. No one's ever described me as having natural grace or poise. I'm shy and can be a little awkward. I've never gotten the hang of styling my hair so it doesn't become a frizzy mess by the end of the day. Etcetera.

But what I do have to balance these out a little is that I've always seen myself as reasonably pretty. Not "beautiful" even on a good day. But "pretty" in the way that you're reflexively described as if you have long, thick hair; big eyes fringed with long eyelashes; smooth, clear skin; and a nice smile. So I can't help seeing "pretty" as positive because I've always held onto it as my consolation prize. (And I should add that of course I have other, entirely non-physical characteristics that I value even more. But sometimes reminding myself that I'm smart and caring and open-minded and can make incredibly delicious cookies only goes so far.)

This is a fascinating thread and I wanted to chime in earlier, but I was reading on my phone which I find really hard to reply with. I admit to aiming for pretty, but I've never thought the word had negative connotations as some people on the forum do. I don't think of it as pink or frilly or young - just pretty - as in not beautiful and not ugly.

I was an ugly duckling in high school (braces, big glasses, lank hair, thin but not fit) and so being called pretty now is a complement that I enjoy and strive for. I don't really think of my outfits or style as pretty, it's more an overall feeling when my hair and makeup look good. Certain outfits and clothing items help with that feeling of pretty though.

I do find it fascinating that many of us would give "pretty" as a sincere compliment but wouldn't necessarily perceive incoming as such.

I would love to be called pretty, so long as it didn't come with "you would be so pretty if you just..."

IK, of course. I'm thinking of just the word on its own. Obviously context is going to be a big part of how it's interpreted/felt, as well as the person it's coming from.

Aida, I think I'm indifferent to pretty for myself, and that feels like a relief. As Manidipa said, I tend to react to it the way I do to "adorable" or "cute" because those aren't my goals either. However, I will use it as a compliment when think it is the right word - but hopefully not generically.

LACeleste, that is so interesting! I love the evolution of words. I feel saying "we are all pretty" does not have the same meaning as "we are all beautiful". Your daughter's perspective is healthy and hopeful to me.

And Zap, you ARE the epitome of pretty to me in the best way. Your features and high ponytail and style are what I would aim for if I aimed for pretty!

Great thoughts about powerful and pretty, MaryK.

Anna: I've been married for decades and decades and could write books on topics related to marriage and dress and looks. Touchy, though, and really not relevant to this thread.

When I married DH he thought I should dress like his Mom. Mom is 4'10', pear shaped, and she always wore 1950s fitted bodice dresses with full gathered skirts. I was 5'9" and slender and it was the mid-1960s and shifts and A-line were coming into style. MIL could not have worn a shift dress--we tried to find one for her once and they didn't fit. DH also wanted me to wear tighter, shorter etc. that I wasn't comfortable wearing. He'd point out women whose looks he liked and I thought they looked frumpy and out of style.

It took a lot of years, but I've retrained him to appreciate my fashion and my style. (He still needs a lot more retraining in other areas.) I like to follow fashion and feel good in my clothes and to tell the truth, I usually dress for me, although if I have doubts I ask his opinion about an outfit. (I am planning on posting a dress he bought for me in 1970 in the next Throwback Thursday thread.)

Wow, I've been busy and haven't been able to keep up with the forum lately, so I'm late to the pretty party, but boy is it an fascinating one!

I do agree that the original question could have been misconstrued as a backhanded compliment, so I'm glad that Catnip chimed back in with an explanation. I'll take all compliments in the spirit they were given!

I totally agree with Angie! Team Pretty all the way! And I agree with MaryK and Zap, which is no surprise as my style is somewhat similar to theirs (Zap and I always end up finding out we bought the same item without even knowing it!). I aim for Pretty Powerful and Pretty Badass too. Perhaps the comfort level with the word pretty correlates with having a more typically feminine style? My style is always ladylike, so even when I try to do tough or edgy looks, they still end up looking "pretty".

I do find that I've been getting the P compliment a lot more since finding YLF., so I do think it may be more my style than my intrinsic looks, though my husband definitely thinks I'm pretty, and he loves my long straight hair. (He hates it when I've cut it short before.)

And Una, I do think you are very pretty, beautiful, edgy and badass. And I think you should definitely let your shadow Kate come out to play! Maybe not with that shirt since you didn't like it, but with something else you love!

PS Aragorn! (And Arwen, she is so pretty...)

You know, I realized that I have never been called pretty without the "if." Like I said above, usually what I hear is "you'd be so pretty IF..." It's never been used as a compliment, just as a reverse criticism. I think I'd enjoy the term more if it hadn't always been used as a standard that I was failing.

IK, that kind of comment is exactly the thing that makes some women resist striving for pretty, and come to even hate the term. My BFF is one of those people. When we were teenagers, her sister used to say the same "You'd be pretty if..." and then proceed to bug her to pluck her eyebrows, use makeup, wear dresses, etc. She would point to me and our other closest friend as examples because we did those things. But it just wasn't true to my friend -- she's still a tomboy to this day. Her husband actually does the same thing to her and picks on her to dye her grey hair, cut her hair differently, wear makeup, etc. It makes me angry for her because he married her full well knowing that she doesn't like to do those things and it's highly unlikely she's going to start at the age of 50!

Such an interesting thread! Una, I love Seinfeld and the episode re the "not so pretty baby!" As for the LOTR characters, I know them from reading the books with my students when I taught high school. Movies/shows like "Sex and the City," "Downton Abby" and "Mr. Selfridge" are more my speed - could those be called pretty shows? The fashions are beautiful!

And I love being called pretty/beautiful/you don't look like a toad/etc. I think the context in which you say it makes all the difference. I don't necessarily aspire to it, but I associate it with classy, classic, feminine, and therefore strong.