Privilege has many forms and degrees. The fact that we are all here discussing fashion on a style forum on the internet clearly demonstrates that every one of us enjoys a significant level of privilege. I will never for a moment deny that many aspects of my existence -- from my skin color to my height to the geographical location of my birth, as examples -- impart privilege on me. It's not a virtue, it's not something achieved. It's a consequence of genetics, luck, etc. I feel like a lot of people (not just here) misunderstand recent discussions of privilege, and it's a subject worth researching.

Oh nonononooooooooooo...this has gone all wrong. I haven't read through all the responses, and I can't till later because I'm rushing off to an appointment soon, but I've read enough.

Tanya, it did NOT mean to imply that you went "on and on" about your height. But since it appears that I did, I apologize. You were just relating the story, and the unfortunate comment wasn't even yours.

I also did not mean to imply that anyone said anything "stupid" or deliberately unkind. Tanya, you did not. Nobody did. That was emphatically not what I was trying to say.

Also, I think y'all are missing the point -- even the short people who have never noticed the discrimination. Is height is genetic -- of course! -- just like most other privileges. No one argues that thin privilege exists, or white privilege, or beauty privilege. I was just trying to point out that height privilege is real too, and to simply be mindful of how you talk about a privilege that you don't necessarily realize you have. To simply be sensitive to the topic.

Maybe an example would illustrate what I mean. You know when someone who is objectively thinner than average posts a picture of themselves and then say, Oh no, look how fat I am in this picture? That makes a LOT of women feel bad. But most of us don't do that, because we are conditioned to not talk about our thinness in that way -- or if we do, we do it to a different audience.

This is a bit like Suz's friends complaining of secondary infertility to her. They were certainly not trying to be cruel; I imagine they thought she would commiserate. But she was the wrong audience for that conversation.

Also, height privilege is not as important as white privilege, yes. But it IS as important as beauty privilege, and possibly even thin privilege. This has plenty of research to back it up.

Again, I'm sorry to all if I gave offence. It was kindly meant, and I may bow out of this conversation now unless I need to correct another comment that misunderstands my point.

I agree with viva and several others. I get tired of people taking offense to things other people say in the normal course of conversation - esp. as it's not being directed at anyone in particular in a negative way. We need to be free to express ourselves even if others don't relate to or love what we say.

[damn too slow again, xpost with AZ and Janet]

Back because whatever we want to think, there is "height privilege" -- which in this context simply means advantages related to treatment, power, money, etc that are embedded in a culture. And yes, it's been studied.

Race is genetic and yet we have "white privilege." Being born as a male is genetic and yet we have "male privilege."

Of course there are tiers or a spectrum...but you've got height in the mix along with "thin," "highly attractive," "hetero," and "without visible disability."

So I do get AZ's point.

Aziraphale, your apology is accepted. A lots of things written sometimes get lost in translation. I was being misquoted further down in the thread with "poor me" comments, and that is what got me.

You certainly did not say anyone said anything stupid. I was the first one to bring the word "stupid" into the conversation and I stand by it: I think that what my ex-BF said to me WAS stupid. I just never expected me reporting on that to somehow get interpreted as me whining about my height. And at this point I will bow out of the conversation too, there is lots of work waiting for me.

Aziraphale, I think this is a good thread. I think you are getting so many reactions because many of us feel deeply about all of these issues one way or the other, but rarely have an outlet to discuss it all so openly. I don't even know what all the issues in this thread are anymore--height, privilege, misunderstanding each other, taking offense lightly... But I tend to think conversation and putting things out in the open is always a good thing regardless of whether we all agree, as long as we do it respectfully. I respect all of you in this forum and appreciate the supportive and sometimes candid conversations very much.

I apologize in advance if this post is too bold. Please, feel free to blame my non-PC European background.

TraceyLiz95, what you wrote is exactly what I think and how I feel as well. I couldn't have said it better, so I'm repeating it here:

"The number one agreement for a peaceful life is "Don't take things personally" It is our job for that inner peace, not the job of the rest of the world to walk on eggshells about what they say." (by TraceyLiz95) 

I also feel that while one should expect a certain level of tact and sensitivity from people closest to us, the rest of the world doesn't owe us the same consideration. It's nice to receive it, of course, but that doesn't mean we're entitled to it or that we should expect it from everyone. 
In my opinion that would be a highly unrealistic expectation that couldn't end in anything but hurt and disappointment.

Above all else, I want to say to Tanya : I am sorry that you were named. I have been on here a very long time and you HAVE been nothing but kind and decent and nonjudgmental. I think that there is nothing that can be said that can make you feel not singled out because your name was used. I didn't feel that it had anything to do with you or even your boyfriend. I felt it was an example that was used as a descriptor. But it has hurt you, understandably.

Next, the word PRIVILEGE is being misused. This is not minor. Especially in today's climate in the US. Privilege is not dependent on genetics. It is something granted to someone else ( whether it is society, culture, country, laws ). There is a transfer of a right or advantage or power purely based on an attribute ( that may or may not be genetic) and very often is an attribute out of our control - such as gender or sexuality or height. In this country, being a cis white Christian male is the ultimate privilege. In some societies, America included, being tall is a privilege. Tall people, in general , are given advantages that short people don't get. It is a fact that height is a great predictor of who will be elected to a public office in the US. Just as a white person is given enormous advantages over non-whites. Just as names that sound white, Christian and male on a resume are given advantages. Those are indisputable facts. And historical ones at that. So health and height are both privileges if they are seen as advantages.

I want to make a comment about the $300-$600 flats observation, I can say that I have always felt perfectly comfortable here talking about my $3 Hanes Tshirt to my $400 Brahmin bag. I remember once posting a picture in my JCPenney score ! And we had our wonderful $1 Wonder member ! But it is the nature of Angie's private business that her clients are more well heeled ( financially speaking ) than those of us who cannot afford a stylist. That's ok. It can be inspirational and aspirational and we get her expertise ( and Greg and Inge's ) for nothing or practically nothing. I for one often use the inspiration here to find something cheaper. I often use the "dupe" search on Amazon. So if I like a very expensive lipstick in a certain color, I google " xyz dupe". Or a "similar" pair of shoes. And there have been many, many conversations on this site over the years about social justice and clothing.

Anyway, NOW I will comment on my height. LOL One thing that I have found fascinating in this thread is how much of it is relative. Personally, I feel HUGE in the Azores. I mean HUGE. I have about 45 first cousins...and I top them ALL ! LOL

I am about 5.4 1/2. I used to be almost 5.6 but lost height after cancer treatments. In the US, I am about average but I will tailor my shoe height to whom I am going to be with. If I am out with my best friend, who is 5'10" I love to wear heels...up to 3 inches. If I am out with my mom, who is 5'1 feet, I will wear flats or a 1 inch heel. I feel more comfortable in heels in a big city. Not so much in my town...there aren't a lot of tall people here. I am definitely one of those people who at times, feels huge and a bit off wearing heels.

Closing out, I just want to say that these types of conversations are what make YLF such a freaking special place. That we can have them.

THE END

We all have our sensitive areas and trigger points, and it can be good talk about them. But somehow I'm just shaking my head that this discussion arose out of an offhand, silly comment that someone's ex-boyfriend made. Sometimes it's just good to say to yourself, "Get a grip." It's just exhausting to get upset over stuff like that. My 2 cents, FWIW. Cheers!

Xtabay and Elizabeth, we really did take the "scenic" route on this one.

Thanks, everyone, for your contributions! I can see things from all of your perspectives, although I may not necessarily agree.

I can't resist one more comment: the funny thing is, smallness isn't even really a trigger for me. While I think I've made it clear that I've experienced discrimination for being small, it has not been an insurmountable problem. I don't stay up at night fretting about being tiny. I just thought yesterday's blog post would be a good place to mention the tall privilege thing -- sort of a "while we're on the topic of tall..." side note. I kind of knew I'd get a lot of "don't be so sensitive" remarks, because lots of people don't notice what a huge advantage it is to be tall.

What moved me to comment was that I noticed that a few other people felt awkward about the blog topic. This includes one very tall woman, who couldn't quite articulate why she felt weird about it, but acknowledged that she'd re-typed her response several times. So I thought, what the hell, I'll endure whatever firestorm ensues in order to point out something that I wish more people knew about. But I promise, I really didn't intend to imply that anyone had said anything hurtful!

I kind of wish I'd never brought it up, but anyway, it is what it is. Knowledge makes the world a better place.

5'0 tall checking in here...I wear (low/moderate) heels not to appear or be taller but because I find them more comfortable than flats with zero arch support.

I never thought of height as being a privilege.

I have thought a lot about how:

1. My feet dangle and don't touch the ground in most chairs. Bar stools are the absolute worst! But even deep seating lounge chairs or sofas swallow me right up.

2. I needed an ergonomic workspace because of my height and petitely proportioned limbs -- and there was no off-the-shelf solution that could fit me. I needed a full custom set up: desk, chair, everything. The price was too costly, so that's the story of how I wound up working from home!

3. I know everyone thinks we shorties have it made on airplanes. Not true. My feet dangle, and the lumbar does not conform to my back. Long flights are torture. Also I need help getting my luggage into and out of the overhead bin, because I can't reach it.

4. Renovating this past year, I discovered that the standard heights for everything -- from cabinets and countertops to toilets -- are too high for me. Yes my feet dangle when I use most toilets. I can only reach the bottom shelf in the kitchen. I'll probably burn myself getting things out of the microwave because it's a pinch too high.

5. You all know my frustrations with petite clothing. It's great we have more choices now than when I was a young adult. But it's always black, white, and grey. The quality is nowhere near as good either. And don't get me started about how they don't make petite underwear, or lounge wear, or scaled-down accessories.

6. Going to the movies or theater or a concert, chances are my view will be blocked by the person in front of me.

7. Podiums are too high for me to see over, or be seen.

8. My tall friends and colleagues have this way of stooping uncomfortably and awkwardly when trying to talk to me.

9. I have to take 2 or 3 steps to every one a tall person takes to cover the same distance. I get out of breath trying to keep up, even when they're walking at a leisurely pace!

10. I need child-size everything medical wise: child-size dental x-rays, butterfly needles, medication amounts, etc.

11. I can only eat small bird-sized portions of food.

12. I'm limited in the cars I can drive -- many just don't fit my body. Same goes for bicycles: I can't reach the pedals on a standard size adult bike.

Having lots of very tall friends, I very well know that the other extreme has similar disadvantages and struggles.

Tanya, eons and eons ago, when I was in my 20s, I dated a guy who broke up with me over my height. He was about 5'8. He told me he couldn't "bring me home to his mother" because she insisted he marry someone at least his height, if not taller, to produce taller grand-babies.

Aziraphale, every time something is said, one takes a risk on being misunderstood. I think that you made a valiant effort at clearing it up. But more importantly, YOU were able to take the feedback and then apologize to Tanya.  And equally important, Tanya was her ever gracious self and accepted beautifully.  

The issue of privilege,  and what it is, is always an important concept to grapple with because awareness ( in one form or another ) comes from it.  To me, this isn't about "walking on eggshells" but rather about our one commonality : our humanity and acknowledging all aspects of it.  And Awareness is always growth and never trivial. I know that i learned today from the awesome example that both Tanya and Az displayed. And I definitely thought about privilege and what it means and confers.

( And I just want to say that just because we don't experience something on an individual level, doesn't mean it doesn't exist in a more general population.  )

It's funny, have to admit when I saw the post title " Too Tall for Heels" I felt a little pang of insecurity but for the opposite reason . I've always felt insecure about my height. I'm 5'9 and have been since I was 12...I'm almost 60. 5'9 isn't as tall (in my opinion) as it used to be but the insecurities have carried through my life. Always being the tallest, feeling as though you tower over people, not being able to find pants or dresses long enough, being called names in your developing years didn't feel like an advantage, trust me. I would have given anything to take off a couple inches just to fit in and not stand out. I would have loved to be petite. Once I read the post the feeling subsided because I know I am sensitive to any discussion about being "Tall" Big" Large", whatever the label, and know there is a ying and yang, positives and negatives to everything. I don't agree that it is a privilege...unless you have walked in the same shoes its not possible to make that judgement, in my opinion;) xoxo

My comments will be general. First, Angie and Greg have created a lovely safe place with password protection where people, mostly women but a few men, can talk about a topic they love but also have insecurities about. Secondly, being able to have the time, the access, and yes the money in many cases, to interact and to consider buying the items shown here, puts us in a certain privileged group in this world of ours. I appreciate getting Angie's expertise for free- I did pay for a stylist once in 2010 as I've said before who did help me but didn't have Angie's skill. Being in a country at the other end of the world, I can't easily reward Angie and Greg financially by clicking through on Finds and buying items- I prefer to try on in store mostly and also not to ship across the world too much, though I have done it from Australia once and the US once. Therefore I can only reward them by trying to be a thoughtful and kind forum member. This thread is mostly an example of members trying to be thoughtful and kind while stating their views. There is often going to be research into something which contradicts our immediate reaction. And I think Az was trying to point out something that has been shown by researchers even although some of you weren't aware of that or even agreed that it mattered in terms of the much bigger privilege issues in the world. I have had enough of those other privileges to succeed without being tall and so that's not an issue for me personally. Perhaps for some people it has been. Not as much as other things that people get discriminated against for, and which they also can't help and which may also be genetic, but still there for some.

As Janet, Isabel, and Jenni NZ point out, there's a lot of knee-jerk negative reaction to the word "privilege." Without understanding how the term was intended in the OP, it's easy to get off track, to take it personally, get defensive, and start punching down, rather than pausing to understand at the meta level what Aziraphale was trying to convey.

Here are a couple of articles which explain the concept:

Peggy McIntosh on her process of becoming aware of her own white privilege:
https://nationalseedproject.or.....e-knapsack

John Scalzi's explanation of unearned advantage, without using the word privilege:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/201.....-there-is/

From Peggy McIntosh's notes section:
"My work is not about blame, shame, guilt, or whether one is a "nice person." It's about observing, realizing, thinking systemically and personally. It is about seeing privilege, the "up-side" of oppression and discrimination. It is about unearned advantage, which can also be described as exemption from discrimination."

For those who don't understand how height is a privilege: it just is. I'm not inventing this! It's a well-documented socioeconomic advantage to be tall. Just because you've never experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Of course, this doesn't mean that being tall (especially if you are very tall) doesn't come with inconveniences (pants not long enough!) or sometimes insecurities (not liking to stand out; not wanting to tower over a partner etc).

For Jennie NZ, Isabel, K.M., Janet, smittie, Suz, Tanya, Vix -- I very much appreciate the words of support.

Also, for those who mentioned that we would all do best do develop self-confidence and learn to appreciate what we've got: well said. I don't think anybody could disagree with that!

Thanks, minimalist! We cross-posted. Those are helpful links.

I think everyone's a bit edgy these day (myself included), and what you say about "knee-jerk reaction" to the word privilege is true. People don't like to think that social rules have changed and they can't keep up, which is the sort of thing that gives rise to reflexive anti-political correctness. But political correctness comes from a place of empathy. The world could do with more of that.

Some of us are born with things, or are born into a situation, that give us a material advantage in the world. It doesn't make us bad people, but it's good to be aware of the privileges you have. That's why I wanted to point out to tall people that, even if you felt awkward being the tall girl growing up (as some of you did!), or have other perfectly valid issues relating to your height, being tall is in fact a blessing.

Does anybody have a link regarding tall women privilege studies?

As I mentioned before, I'm 177cm /5'10" and certainly don't feel discriminated because of my height, but I think for women it's probably not a matter of the taller, the more privileged.
I have a cousin who is 190cm / 6'4" and I'm sure she would be surprised to learn that her height is supposed to be an advantage.

BTW this is what shopping often feels like

Wow Minnie, that photo is quite telling! Opposite problem to me trying on supposedly "cropped" pants which are full length on me. (Actually I prefer full length pants so it can sometimes be quite helpful). Just the way it is. It's nice for me in those cases that I don't have to hem the pants, it saves me trouble. I'm sorry, I don't have a link, I have read articles in the past which interested me as I have a very tall husband 6 foot 4 to my 5 foot 2, and I didn't know about it before that. My son has inherited much of the height, he is 6 foot 2, where my 2 daughters got only a bit of it and have ended out average height. I felt kind of pleased for my son that it might make his life even easier than it would be already- and also empathetic towards my very short for a man 5 foot 5 father, who may have already died by the time I learned about this. ( He died in 2010).

I'd be curious as well, Minnie. I know height privilege exists but I picture a graph where the privilege (economic advantage?) probably peaks somewhere around 5'8-10 for women and then actually declines, if slowly. Just guessing. I think our culture still values men being taller than women.

Interesting. I've always viewed being petite as more of a privilege than height for a woman - socially, at least. There is a huge, unspoken expectation that a woman be shorter than her date. There is clear discrimination against a woman who is "larger" than her date (while this is often about weight, height does help to offset the perception). From my experience, a short woman is rarely stared at, while a woman over 6' tall often gets stares. Short women rarely get comments about wearing flat shoes, while I've witnessed tall women questioned about why they would wear heels and make themselves even taller. While all of these perceptions and situations may be "wrong", it doesn't change the fact that they often occur.

Height - or lack thereof - has worked to my advantage in that I tend to tell it like it is (or how it is according to how I see it). I have never curbed this tendency with a male boss. Because my height makes me more "cute" than threatening, I can use that to my advantage and be as blunt as I need to be. As for salary, while it impacts a woman's earnings, it impacts a man's earnings far more. I've always felt it was my own job to research and be prepared with the salary I could reasonably demand in job negotiations. Perhaps I have been lucky that I do not feel my height has ever impacted my earnings.

There are, however, conflicting studies. While studies universally say that tall women are judged (in isolation) to be more assertive, intelligent and capable, many also say that those perceptions don't last long IRL. As for salary information, I've had difficulty finding reputable studies that can isolate height as the cause. Indeed, most studies indicate that height matters more for men and weight matters far more for women as far as earnings go.

Regardless, I will never argue that everyone has their own struggles. But people ought to feel just as comfortable saying that they wish they were a few inches taller (even if average height already) as someone else who says they wish they were proportioned differently. Attempting to silence voices is never a good thing, IMO.

Aziraphale, you've reiterated that tall is a privilege. I've indeed seen articles about studies of this (though in my recollection it seems more tilted to the men). And yet what are we taller gals supposed to do; breakdown the details of the failures, humiliations, mediocrities of our personal/work/salary and other life experiences to prove we haven't felt particularly privileged?

We're not all treated like Giselle Bundchen, and, from personal experience, if not otherwise endowed with typical Western White normal physical attributes of attractiveness, quite the opposite. And if you're not particularly intelligent, or are shy or not clever or charming (i.e. just being a normal average fool), all bets are off.

If tall is a privilege, why do I feel like a huge clomping mastodon? Why has my lifelong fantasy alter ego been a petite person? Here I am gettng bent when in my comment yesterday I said I wouldn't. Oh the humanity.

A couple of articles :

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/Car.....ll.people/

http://diverseeducation.com/article/87919/

Here is the abstract to a paper and then a long list of references to other studies :

http://journals.sagepub.com/do.....0212437211

A list of research references :

http://journals.sagepub.com/ac.....rticlesCha

Jules, you would be exactly correct. There is a peak for women, though I don't remember what it is. There is a point where men find taller women intimidating and even "aggressive" and "overpowering" unless they are very thin ( like models ).

I love how the author for diverse education calls it "unearned privilege".

binkle: much as it's an extremely funny turn of phrase, I am sure you don't resemble a "huge clomping mastodon" even a tiny bit.

What you say it totally valid. If you feel too tall, you feel too tall. Nobody can tell you what you should feel! Plus, you're not the first tall woman to say that there are in fact downsides to being very tall. Jules's imagined graph of "peak height privilege for a woman" topping out somewhere around 5 foot ten is probably pretty accurate. But the reality is that there is a distinct advantage in terms of being judged competent and getting good jobs if you're tall. And before anyone says it, of course plenty of short women get good jobs and are judged competent -- it's just that height is an advantage. Just like being good-looking is an advantage.

Here's an analogy: there are women with body dysmorphic disorder have deep insecurities about their beauty -- who feel ugly -- but because the outside world judges them as beautiful, they still possess beauty privilege. We give attractive people (both men and women) more breaks, whether we intend to or not, and whether they believe they are beautiful or not.

The argument you're using is like when straight white men try to argue they're not privileged, because they've personally had hardships in life. Sure, that happens all the time. One type of privilege does not indicate that you have ALL the privilege, or that success in life is guaranteed. Height is by no means the only factor that influences success (or the most important one) -- it's just one that people forget a lot.

Thank you Isabel !

Minnie,

Why can't we celebrate what we have and who we are, rather spending all this time and ink on labeling other people having "privilege"? We can be tall or short; we can be white, black, brown, or some shade in between. Our phenotype or genotype is entirely out of our control, no one here can choose to be tall or short, white or black, born here or there!

Be thankful that you are short, that you still have your legs, that you have not lost them to cancer or motor vehicle accidents. Be thankful that you are tall, that you did not have a stroke that paralyzes one side of your body and make you unable to talk.

Be thankful that you live in a free country and you can say what you want, you may be censored by others, but you will never go to jail because of what you believe.

What a privilege I have that I can actually write all of these on my computer, sitting in my comfortable room, not worrying about my next meals or where I will sleep. I can turn up or down the thermostat, I can turn on or off the light. Clean water freely runs in the faucet and my bathroom is just a few steps away. I say that is a privilege!

Elizabeth, what you describe is exactly how the word "privilege " is used in the vernacular.

In the context of examining social systems, the p-word has a particular meaning, which can take some effort to wrap one's head around.

This article describes the concept of privilege as well as explaining what it's not:
http://everydayfeminism.com/20.....privilege/

And this one takes a different tack, using bicycling in car traffic as an analogy:
https://alittlemoresauce.com/2.....privilege/

Clean tap water ... that is so interesting you mention that, Elizabeth. That IS a privilege, one still not available in Flint, MI. And I dare say most of us think it should be available, but the weight of fixing that is immense. No one feels able.

I heard an interesting thing on the radio about a woman who went to Louisiana to study why people there hate federal government so much. Lots there, but one thing, folks are tired of hearing about others' problems when they have so many problems of their own. They want to know when they get to talk about their issues.

I suppose, Az, that's the thing with this topic about height. On both sides of the coin. And the height problem has to get behind potable water, unless it's taken as an individual's peccadillo.