Gaylene, sounds to me like you are setting lower standards for the things you're calling "bargains". How is that a bargain and not just a low-priced, lower quality item?

Thistle, sorry--didn't mean to take over your thread. You've started an interesting topic, and I just have lots of questions about the ideas people have posted in response to your "rant" (which isn't very ranty)

"Full price, in my mind, is for people who want to have the newest thing immediately."

Fashiontern's statement is something which I've heard many times, but with which I'd respectfully disagree. I do agree, though, with her point that the full price is the opening offer in a transaction between a seller and a potential buyer. It's the expected assumption of my role a passive player in this supposed negotiation which irritates me. To me that smacks more of manipulation than negotiation. By assuming the current price is the "real" price, I put the ball back in my court. I make my buying decision based on that price and walk away if I don't like it. If the item appeals to me at its opening price, and I have the means to buy it, I do so without regret. My focus on stays on the usefulness of the item to me, not its potential for a discounted future price or its "newness".

Like Angie, I see a sale price as a coincidence, not a triumph. I don't discuss the prices I paid with others, so I can't boast about "steals" or "scores". I define "thriftiness" as staying within my budget, not as a search for "bargains". Re-setting my mind like this puts me out of step with the many of my friends, but it makes me much happier when I look at my closet.

fashiontern, the smallest sizes go first (deliberately - which I've blogged about), and the best assortment is stocked at the start and middle of a retail season (again, deliberately). Most of the items I buy rarely go on sale - and when they do - my size is usually gone. I'm not a bargain shopper. Never have been - and that's not because I'm made of money. It's just not what is most important to me. So I'm not affected by sales marketing. If I want something and can afford it - I get it. If my budget is gone - it's gone. I don't feel fabulous or vindicated when I get a discount or could get two for the price of one. I feel fab and satisfied when the item is right for me and my wardrobe. That's the bang I want for my fashion buck - not the discount. The NAS appeals to me because its NEW items at the very beginning of the season. The discount is a bonus.  

Gaylene, high five.

Thanks, Angie, for expressing my thoughts so well. It was actually your blog which got me back on track about about this whole idea of "bargain" hunting many years ago.

My mother rarely bought items on sale even though she lived on a very modest budget. She never thought a low price made something a "bargain". A bargain, to her, was something which was worn over and over because she loved it. That's the definition I now use, Fashiontern.

Angie, I completely agree with you on getting things that are "right" being most important. The thing I can't get over is that so many people here seem to assume that's only possible at full price. What you say about your size is new to me, and I'm going to look up the post. Interesting to think that only some sizes could assume that there will be a wide array of items available to us. But the other thing you mention--getting new items at the start of the season--is something you must prioritize, given your line of work. For me, because I plan to wear things over and over for years (like Gaylenes mom, just at a lower price per wear), it doesn't matter if it is from "last season" when I start wearing it. I'll wear it in years 2-11 years after its debut, instead of 1-10. I understand that isn't something a stylist can do.

Fashiontern --I can't add to anything Gaylene or Angie have to say. They speak eloquently and to the point. I pay attention to every post they write ..... even if the information is not useful to me at that exact moment, it might be useful next year.

Personally I stopped shopping sales because for years I kept coming home with such fabulous bargains ("prices that were too good to pass up"). Yet those same items did nothing to build my wardrobe. I had a wardrobe of incredibly beautiful pieces that did not coordinate or form the foundation for getting dressed in the morning. I bought fashion as "art." My wardrobe was literally beautiful. Not functional, but really beautiful. I was so proud of my wardrobe, yet I couldn't get dressed in the morning. Desperation set in and and I was lucky enough to find YLF.

For me, I had to first understand that sales shopping was not aiding or abetting any coherent wardrobe plan. My problem was obvious, but it still took me a few years to see and understand the problem. I had to literally make a plan to stop shopping sales. Please don't get me wrong, I still like a bargain, but I am never going back to the way I was before. I do not shop sale racks right now because it is a slippery slope and I want progress, not regression.

I am not even sure you and are talking about the same issue anymore. Please forgive me if I accidentally went off topic. I love a bargain, but it has to be an actual bargain (not just something on sale that was "too good to pass up") for me before I will buy it. AND that brings me full circle back to Gaylene and it's usefulness in my wardrobe. And the key is my wardrobe.

Sorry, if I went off topic. Best wishes.

I think I've written before that it's helpful to me to take price out of the equation when shopping. These days, I look at items, check the fiber content, try them on, and THEN look at the price. If, at that point, it's something I can afford and I think it's worth the asking price, I buy it. If it's not, I either walk away or watch for a discount.

Online shopping has made it easy to comparison shop, so I will do that for major brands that are sold in multiple places, but I'm not really a price stalker, and I'm not usually a clearance shopper, as my tastes evolve from year to year, and I don't live in a place with seasons highly out of sync with the retail cycle.

ETA: I'm also willing to pay a premium to shop small brands and local businesses. Those things are important to me.

I'm with Gaylene and Angie - things need to be useful and right for me; price doesn't figure into the equation except in the can-I-afford-it sense. I've never been a bargain shopper. From what I've seen, bargains fill to the brim the closets of people who have nothing to wear.

Back to Thistle's point, yes, I dislike frequent sales too. Mostly they give me the impression that the merchant doesn't value their own merchandise. They're essentially saying, please take this crap off our hands, we'll let it go for much less than the tag says if you take it today. I'd much rather buy from a company that stands by the quality of its goods.

(Excuse my brevity - I'm boarding soon).

Gaylene, my Mama was like yours. I have the same definition of a fashion bargain. I'm tickled that you found YLF through what our Mums believed.

Fashiontern, I want to wear my items season after season like you. I love a seasonal refresh, but I love my golden oldies too. My favourite outfits combine new with old. I don't post outfit pics any more but you can check back if you like.

Take for example my Prada riding boots - (an extreme example because I don't just wear designer shoes!) - I saved up for them, bought them full price, and wore them into the ground season after season. Still wear them and love them. They never went on sale. They were not a discounted item. But one of my best footwear purchases ever. To me, an incredible score.

Sterling, I appreciate the kind words and am proud of how you zoned a successful shopping strategy for yourself.

I'm sad my favorite store plays the discounting game.

When I buy from Nordies, there's a chance at their mid-year sale, an item I bought will go on sake. I don't care about that. Not really. I've already gotten some wear out of it, made sue I got my size, etc.

But I don't shop Nordies a ton. While I shop them for shoes and a few trendier pieces, I spend a chunk of my budget at plain boring Talbots. I love their quality, their simple styles fit my taste, and the cut of their clothes is perfect for me.

They have numerous sales, and I wish I could adopt your mentality. But because I've been shopping with them for so many years, I've seen them raise their base prices pretty substantially to account for the discounts.

Perhaps I just have to reframe...

One last thought about waiting to buy at a discounted price. I guess I could accept the frugality argument better IF the money "saved" was earmarked for some other need. But, if the "savings" is just used to buy more clothes, what is the difference if we both are sticking to our budgets? Why should I feel scammed about having only three garments instead of half a dozen?

The issue I have with discounts is similar to Sterling's--I become overly focused on the price instead of the usefulness of the item itself. Like Thistle, a price focus made me feel triumphal when I bought something at a lower price than my neighbour, but dissatisfied when the reverse happened. My "sales goggles" made a branded item seem irresistible when the item could be mine for $50 instead of $500--without my ever questioning why the item was right now when it wasn't at its original pricepoint. Buying turned into a heady game of stalking, pouncing, and scoring. And, worst of all, I ended up with a wardrobe where too many of my "bargains" satin my closet until they got culled. That, to me, is true buyer's remorse.

It's not that I think paying full price is the only way to buy what is "right", but I do know paying the current price, with the full knowledge that item may well be reduced in a few weeks, sure makes me stop and reflect before I hand over my credit card. Once I walk away, though, that's it. A price drop doesn't make me re-visit my decision.

Sterling, I think we *are* talking about the same thing with "actual bargains"--good clothing that works for you and is low priced. That's exactly what I want. If you take any of those three things out of the equation, it isn't a bargain. Many people here seem to like to define bargain as "cheap crap that you don't need and that doesn't fit". I don't want that. Does anyone?

Thistle can wait for those jackets to go on sale or pay full price, or she can just stop looking at the catalogs and choose from the many things her favorite store has at a lower price right now. If there isn't anything that fits her needs, then look again in a few weeks. It's not as though sales are a once-in-a-lifetime chance. There will be ponte jackets on sale. If she totally loves a very specific jacket and must have exactly that one in a hurry, then full price it is, but otherwise, I don't see the need for such stress.

Caveat: I have learned a lot since starting here, and doubtless will learn more. I may change my mind. But right now, the things I'm cleaning out of my closet are more likely to be things I paid full price for many years ago than things like the $20 Anthro jacket in my recent packing post. Most of my things on that post were new (the skirt & purple top are ~10 years old, and bought on sale); the Patagonia dress is the only thing purchased for full price, because I support their business model. There is so much I've learned from you and others here, that I'm curious to see if I do change my mind on this, but I don't see it coming.

I suppose I have a hybrid approach. At retailers that frequently have sales, I keep a wishlist and then consider what to buy when those sales occur. But, since I'm a tall cusp size, a lot of things will no longer be available in my size by the time the sale rolls around. That's not usually a crisis for me since I have a big wardrobe, and if Item A isn't obtained I probably still have Item B that serves the same function. If it's something that's absolutely vital that needs to be replaced, or I'm totally in love with it, I will go ahead and buy something when I see it, rather than risking that it will be gone before it's discounted. My own time and serenity of mind are worth something to me too, and waiting to get the absolute lowest price available is stressful and time-consuming.

I share your frustration- it was simpler when there were two big drops in price during the year, here Jan- Feb for summer clothes, and July- Aug for winter. But there are so many different models- spend and save, three for two, 25% off all dresses etc

I tend to buy earlier in the season. But I do browse the sales and occasionally get some great deals. Sales merchandise is s struggle for me often- I get put off by crowded racks and not finding my size. I am a better thrift shopper than I am sales shopper.

There are trade offs we all make - quality vs quantity, time vs convenience etc. I also have local shops I like to support so I will do so - they do not tend to have the constant sales.

There is as Fashiontern says no real need to pay full price- at any one time there is always plenty of stock discounted. I do take this approach with gym wear and lingerie often- there are always gym tanks on sale if I am happy to buy last years styles.

My happiest purchases are ones where I love wearing the item AND I keep it AND and I had fun buying it in one way or another. Sometimes this means a good price- other times it might be on a day trip or from a thrift shop or just knowing I found a great piece.

Hi Thistle. This was a GREAT thread. Thank you so much for writing it.

May I say that if I can reframe/retrain my shopping strategy, you certainly can do it too with ease. I won't lie. It took me a while to figure out my sales addiction problems and then make the necessary adjustments.

If your favorite store(s) do play the discounting game. You can learn to play it too to your advantage. Time consuming, yes. Frustrating, yes. BUT you can do it.

If you are comfortable providing specifics, my sale shopping skills might benefit really you. My "hunting" skills are still pretty extraordinary. Let me know how I can help you in any way.

First of all, I do agree that the constant sale thing is annoying because it makes me feel like a patsy for paying full price. Having said that, Angie wrote a blog post awhile back about relaxing into missing the sale, or something like that. I can't quite remember the title. But I found her perspective helpful. I moved back to the U.S. two years ago and the whole constant sale thing had developed in my absence. I found the new system stressful. Now, I try to relax about it. If there is something I absolutely don't want to miss, and I can afford it, then I buy it. If it is something I am willing to miss, I wait for the sale. Or, if it is something I really want, but it doesn't fit my budget or perception of reasonable price, I wait for a sale. Two other factors for me are that I have very little time for shopping, so I need to be efficient with my shopping time, and also that I wear sizes on the small spectrum that sell out quickly. Besides all that I enjoy shopping at the beginning of a season when everything is available. It's easier to avoid compromises and wardrobe holes that way. I find focusing on closet needs and budget less stressful than chasing the marketing tricks.

In any case I found this thread to be a very interesting read, and I do understand your frustration, Thistle, especially when you have watched the whole thing develop before your eyes at your favorite store. It is a very annoying fact of life these days.

JCP tried the strategy of "no more sales, low prices al the time" and it failed miserably for them, so they went back to higher prices with sales and coupons all the time.

"I get put off by crowded racks and not finding my size. I am a better thrift shopper than I am sales shopper."

Sal, thanks for the support of the laconic approach to sales/new merch. I'm confused though by the above statement. Aren't the two things you can't abide by more likely at thrift shops than anywhere else?

I'm not sure that JCP gave that new strategy enough time to really show results - they had lost customers when they stopped sending out the big catalog.

In my opinion, once a merchant goes down the constant sales road, they attract the bargain-shoppers and over time lose the full-price-paying shopper who was used to high quality. When a previously 100% cotton item becomes a "cotton-rich" blend with nylon or polyester, I don't care if the price is the same as five years ago - I'm not buying it. I'd rather they kept the quality and increased the price accordingly.

I have a million thoughts about this thread and thank you so much Thistle for starting it. I am not sure I can arrange my thoughts and may need to post more than once. I feel this trend was definitely brought on by the GFC, I don't remember it so much before that, there were more just the end-of-season sales in our country, as Sal said. I'm a thrifty person. Always have been, probably upbringing as the child of older Depression era parents ( Mum was 40 when she had me, she was born 1922). I understand that as an accountant you will be perhaps more aware of price Thistle. It's possibly a thrifty profession! There is a different type of "price" to pay in waiting for sales, in obsessively checking one's wish lists or needing to pop in store all the time. Partly somewhere like Zara has done this to us, as clearly delineated in my recent read "To Die For-is Fashion wearing out the World?". With Zara, apparently if you don't buy it then, it won't be there next time you go in. Now I've only bought the one top ever from Zara, there and then, and it has been pretty much a failure. That was before we had a Zara here, I was in Melbourne. The one time I have been into our only Zara here, I was aware of that and bought nothing.
Maybe think of your charge-out rate as an accountant, or if not currently working what you would like your charge-out rate or hourly rate to be? Then think of how much time and angst it costs you to chase sales? I will have more thoughts after they have percolated more in my brain.

Fashiontern - it does seem contradictory!! I now mostly buy thrift at a higher end place so it is "curated" and you pay what I think of as cheap chain store prices for second hand. ie $35 for a dress, $50 for a jacket, $10 for a necklace. So it is not $5 or $7 an item, but the stock is picked over. I also shop at a recycled boutique which is similar prices to the first place but a business, rather than supporting a local charity.

Finally found something I said before and just spent ages searching for. "We do have some fabulous NZ designers who make their clothes here, Sabatini who I buy on sale are a case in point. But SO expensive some of them, I couldn't get the variety I crave and have to pay so much for everything. I don't mind designers making money obviously, but then sometimes they seem to make so MUCH money if the clothes are sold at full price I wonder if I would be a fool to pay those prices."
Is that kind of one thing you are saying here Thistle? I am not sure if you know but I am trying to buy more ethically and wean myself off my addiction to low prices. It may just be here, but our designers here (since we don't have that many, our country's population is under 5 million still I think) get written up quite a lot and sometimes shown in stories in their homes etc which always look exceedingly fancy... and I am thinking of one in particular, Trelise Cooper, whose bright colours and embellishments appeal to me. She has not always been thought to be the most ethical and sensible and she still makes in China anyway and I don't know about her supply chain... she doesn't seem to appear in the ethical fashion rankings, maybe not big enough to ask, but does have a stable of brands. If she appears to be so rich, and to maybe be a bit dodgy, then if I DID buy anything from her ( which I haven't yet), then wouldn't I try to get it for less? That's how I think anyway... please, forum, shoot me down if you feel strongly against what I'm saying here.

http://www.newshub.co.nz/enter.....hes-200911

This is a link mentioning the designer I discuss above who in 2009 sourced her "design" from a manufacturer in China who sold the exact same design of sequined pinky-red bow to Topshop in the UK- and one of NZ's gossip writers Rachel Glucina happened to try it on in London a while before it walked down the runway in Auckland! And then wrote about it! Why would you pay top dollar for that?!

I've returned to this thread after dinner and reading my latest fashion/economics book. I'm thinking about what Kkards said. You are probably right Kkards, that I as a customer have mostly suggested to the retailer that I will only buy on sale. You may be able to train me in how unfair that may be. I feel the retailer puts on such a mark-up that they are getting so much more profit than the maker of the clothing and the maker or grower of the raw material ( the cotton, or the polyester, or the worker that sewed it), that it's unfair. If I don't buy it at full price, someone else may do. The retailer probably still gets some profit from the sale price item, just not as much. The wholesaler, maker, sewer etc gets the same, right? And successful retailers seem rich in my city. I'm just making them a bit less rich, thereby keeping myself and my own family richer. This is a choice I feel I am within my rights to make? It's not like I actually NEED most of the stuff ( which is why I have gone over 6 months in the past year without buying a single item?)
Counter arguments from the forum?

No counter argument from me, Jenni.

My concern with the sales (the expected 40% coupon every other week) was brought up above by some of you: it is the ethics of slashing prices to the bottom. It's something that, to my eyes, brings brands like Gap, Ann Taylor, BR, etc closer to fast-fashion like H&M and Zara. Admittedly, the constant sales means that we don't quite know what the "true price" is anymore, but in this race to the bottom, someone has to pay, and it's usually the weakest link: workers in sweatshops, underpaid salespeople etc.

I do think you need to reassess your views, Thistle. Yes, think of the sale price as the "real" price and if you have to wait for a week for the sale to come on, just think of it as bad luck.

Anything that comes from BR or Gap HAS to be "on sale" (aka, the regular price) there's no two ways about that.

You are not "bargain hunting" when you want the 40% off. You are "ripoff avoiding"

If the 40% off were only a couple of times a year, then I would buy full price. But it seems to me that the sale is on 99% of the time.

Deleted this comment because it is too political/loaded.

A counterargument for JenniNZ:

When retailers know in advance that they'll be discounting the majority of their items , they work to raise their profit margins with that knowledge in hand at the beginning of the process. This means that buyers put pressure on factories at the CMT (cut, make and trim) level to lower prices and, thus, allow that discounting to happen, as much as possible, without disrupting profits. As long as we're working in this international system with CMT happening in developing countries, at the behest of retailers, we're in a system where the buyers have the power.

I have American maker friends who sell wholesale to stores like Anthropologie, Urban Outfitters, and West Elm. They generally get 50% of the retail price on delivery, and regardless of any discounting that might happen on the shop floor later. I seriously doubt that the 50% rule holds true for overseas factories when the retailer is controlling the process from top to bottom.