Such a fascinating thread and thoughtful perspectives. My parents immigrated and have always have had a bargain-hunter mentality, which YLF helped me move past.

Lately, I find myself gravitating towards stores that have fewer sales and better quality, like Nordstrom and MM LaFleur, and thoroughly enjoy buying fewer just-right pieces. Sure, when I bought the perfect-for-me Hugo Boss suit from Nordstrom, I sought and secured a significant price adjustment when it went on sale, but would have kept the suit at full price because it was the right piece for me and my wardrobe.

In a way, I think that I've shifted my sense of satisfaction: it brings me more joy to have gotten the exact right item than a great price. Not that these are mutually exclusive, but the focus has shifted.

Penny, your comment about how your parents looking for bargains and how it first shaped your own consuming behavior is so true! Which makes me think that there should be some consumer's education, because shopping for clothes today has very little to do with what our parents experienced, yet the only training we got was from them... new ways such as not falling for sales and/or buying new would be frowned upon by older generations, yet it's because each generations lives in a different world!

I have been following this thread and thinking about my attitudes before replying, as I've definitely been a victim of buying things I don't need because they're on sale. However, after years as a frugal grad student, I can't quite sales completely. I love Loft, for instance, and yeah, they've trained me to know that their full prices aren't the real prices.

This is what I try to do now: keep a wishlist, as many have mentioned, and then wait until a price I'm happy with comes along. . If I buy something at 30% off and it's reduced the next week, I don't make a fuss.
This strategy applies to retailers I know reduce a lot. I recently wanted a jumpsuit (first ever), and found one that actually worked on me at Anthro, and didn't bother waiting for a sale. I've also learned to invest in shoes and won't wait for a sale most of the time.

Overall, I am trying to stay attuned to sales but only shopping what I need, which is hard for me - I've gotten better at it though. Here are some examples of sale purchases I've made recently:
I recently for some $14 final sale pants at Loft - they'd been sold out in my size for ages, though I wanted them. They popped up on the final sale rack, probably as a return. Score! But only because I'd wanted them to begin with. They're a very bright print that I loved, but I could see why there were still a few left at final sale time. I would have bought it for more if my size had popped up sooner.

I wanted a triclimate Columbia jacket for an upcoming trip, but they're expensive. However, I saw that REI was having a sale that included an option I liked for $75 off. As a bonus, my husband and I had a gc to REI that hadn't fully been spent, so I didn't pay a cent. But if it had gotten closer to my trip and I hadn't found a deal like this, I would have just paid full price.

With all that being said, I do agree at the frustration expressed at the start of the thread. With Loft and especially J Crew Factory, it's tough to know what the real price of something is. I just buy when the item hits a price I'm willing to pay for it. I'm trying to move away from the sale shopping mentality but don't mind when I get deals like the ones I mentioned above.

I seldom post but have been reading a lot of ylf for about five years. This thread has brought me out of lurking as I believe that several important factors around clothing prices have not been discussed.

First, I think that the cost of real estate has been a major factor in the US and probably abroad as well. A decade ago you could reliably buy sturdy basics from places like the Gap or llbean. Now those merchants are almost complete garbage imho. Whereas ten years ago Target clothing was mostly junk. Now a days Target clothes are cheaper and better than Gap and often not worse than llbean. But because they are not in fancy malls and don't have nearly the same high cost per square foot as those types of retailers, they can focus on quality. With Target in particular, I think that the choice is often whether to buy today while picking up groceries and other things or whether to make a clothing specific visit, and I think people do some of each. A lot of places respond to this real estate cost by cheaper components rather than higher prices. So to me, sales at Gap or llbean just aren't a compelling reason for shopping there any more.

However, I recently did purchase a lovely lambswool ultra thick men's sweater from llbean. It was in the super sales bin, but I would have bought it for full price too. But men's small is often left over, so that is a good trick to know for some items. So I am not sure to what extent any of these things we have been discussing apply as much for men's clothing.

Anyway, my point above is that real estate is a higher percentage of the cost for retail stores than it was previously, and playing games with prices is one way that merchants are trying to adjust.

I've seen supporting arguments that, as a result, retailers get better margins online than b&m now. Which brings me to my next factor, online shopping. It has hugely increased costs related to returns. So I think that the top of the season price assumes that some people are going to snap up inventory, hold it for a month or two, and then return it. And they still need to keep the stores well stocked at the same time. So hence the high opening price.

Conversely, retailers know that if the item is 40 % off, then more people will decide that it's worth the price tag and keep the item. This just happened to me. I bought a Talbots T-shirt online for 20 dollars marked down from 50. I felt like wearing it on the day after it arrived. Upon sober reflection, I realized that while it fits well through my big shoulders and chest, it is boxier through the middle than it appeared on the model (they must have pinned the back). If I were spending 50 dollars for it, it would need to be a work shirt and I would have returned it for something else more fitted, but for 20 it was still far nicer than any of my $7 dollar Target weekend tops.

So another point is that very often the sale price versus the full price determine the function of the garment in my wardrobe.

My last point for this moment pertains to returns. I pretty much refuse to shop at Nordstrom for anything besides shoes in special sizes (very small calf for boots). I feel like most of the sticker price there is for coverage of the cost of other people's returns. For anything short of ultra fancy items (say $150 and up) I actually have experienced the quality to be mostly comparable to much cheaper retailers.

I am decisive once I have gotten past the cash register so I enjoy Forever 21 prices. Since they only have a 21 days return period, and only for store credit. I actually think that the tremendous reduction in returned items makes them more environmentally friendly than most places: if you think about packaging and transportation costs in the equation. And furthermore, as a careful laundering expert, I have no issues with the longevity of the clothing, at least compared to anything else in the under $150 range.

As far as sales, I think that the most rational strategy is to care about the intersection of time and price. For example, I was recently trying to buy some shorts at Lands End. They didn't fit me well in a variety of styles that I tried. While I was there I found a replacement for ten year old fleece half-zip for $10. I was not looking for that category but it seemed worthwhile to get something newer and thus warmer because it hadn't stretched out. On the other hand, there was also a replacement for a ten year old cotton sweater. It was only slightly discounted, at about $65. Since I hadn't seen an equivalent replacement in a decade, there was no way I was going to wait for a better discount. I even checked their website when I got home and they weren't carrying this print online. This only confirmed my resolve to keep it.

So I shop sales, but only in terms of what happens to be in front of me when I out. Online, I look for sales primarily on dresses, because I find them to be the most hewi for me. And I have a harder time predicting workhorse items from closet orphans when it comes to dresses, so I am cautious about spending over $100 on a dress.

Wow!!

Some really interesting and thoughtful responses

Lots of twists and turns.

For me, I was talking about the 30% off everything in the store that I know will be here in a few weeks. Not really clearance, just the standard "everything is 30% off" sale.

I get end of season sales, but the only one I participate in is the winter one, because while the rest of the world is getting ready for spring, I have 4 more MONTHS of winter

Still, lots of good stuff on here to think about!

3style, I am so happy that this thread prompted you to post, because you bring up such enlighting and good points to this discussion. It was an eye opener to me to be thinking in terms of rent, but clearly this is what is happening, in North America anyway. Thank you also for sharing your refreshing outlook on returns. I will certainly be thinking of those considerations the next time I shop.

Earlier in the discussion someone thought my description of discount hypermarkets made them think of early 1970's discount outlets... and I couldn't help but chuckle, because what I had been describing were some Canadian markets I have visited... which sometimes is about the same thing! Not in terms of deco so much as in terms of poor choice, scarcity, repeats of the same or almost same cheaper items endlessly while rarity of anything remotely different, as if buyers had assumed everybody is built the same and has the same needs, on top of a smorgasbord of fashions from 5+ seasons ago and worse. I am not Canada bashing, don't take me wrong, just some places here known for their ceaseless sales and mark downs, which seem to have sprouted with enthusiasm, particularily in small towns (larger cities have been somehow able to grow bubbles of more interesting and better stocked stores, both in sizes and quality). To be fair: our population is relatively smaller, and taxes, electricity and winter-related costs etc. make it so that a lot of people can't afford even basic quality, sadly. Yet our real estate has experienced the same hikes as the US's, so what 3style said also applies here I'm sure.

Krishnidoux you are quite right that even places where the retail rent is cheaper tend to have stores with never ending markdowns. In the US, in those locations, it is the big general merchandise discount stores like Sam's Club, Walmart, Costco and BJ's who are the drivers of a race to the bottom on prices. I'm most familiar with BJ'S and by golly, they don't even want to spend the real estate dollars and labor costs to have dressing rooms where you can try things on! They just are counting on people returning what I would guess would probably more than half of the clothing they purchase. But they figure :"hey, maybe you will buy your groceries here when you come to return, when you wouldn't have been motivated otherwise, so that it's worth the effort to process returns."

Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but in the US each state sets the tax rate on clothing, and they vary significantly. I'm in Massachusetts and here we have no sales tax for clothing items under $175. Above that dollar amount, the remainder becomes taxable at 6.25%. Otherwise, us frugal Yankees would buy considerably less clothing. Its significant enough difference to my budget that I try not to buy clothing when visiting states which have tax on clothing.

Sigh. I am in North Carolina. I pay 7.5 percent tax on every single thing I buy.

Sterling, Ditto. What's a body to do?

Krishnidoux you are quite right that even places where the retail rent is cheaper tend to have stores with never ending markdowns. In the US, in those locations, it is the big general merchandise discount stores like Sam's Club, Walmart, Costco and BJ's who are the drivers of a race to the bottom on prices. I'm most familiar with BJ'S and by golly, they don't even want to spend the real estate dollars and labor costs to have dressing rooms where you can try things on! They just are counting on people returning what I would guess would probably more than half of the clothing they purchase. But they figure :"hey, maybe you will buy your groceries here when you come to return, when you wouldn't have been motivated otherwise, so that it's worth the effort to process returns."

Also, I don't know if you are aware of this, but in the US each state sets the tax rate on clothing, and they vary significantly. I'm in Massachusetts and here we have no sales tax for clothing items under $175. Above that dollar amount, the remainder becomes taxable at 6.25%. Otherwise, us frugal Yankees would buy considerably less clothing. Its significant enough difference to my budget that I try not to buy clothing when visiting states which have tax on clothing.

Interesting about the sales tax in Massachusetts. With additional local taxes, I think my sales tax (CA Bay Area) is 9.5% or 9.25%. No tax on food, though.

I find the Gap/BR/Talbot's etc. pattern of sales darn annoying, too. My success rate at those places isn't high enough to bother. Same with thrift stores and places like Ross; too many mistakes = too expensive.

Nordstrom has become my go-to place due to its generous return policy and its alterations. After owning one of their dresses for a year, I decided I hadn't worn it more because it was a little too long, and since I still have a lot of alteration credits, I am having the sleeves shortened in addition to the hem.

That being said, I rarely pay full price at Nordstrom, keeping numerous items on my Wish List until they are marked down, sell out, or I decide against them. I like contemplating items at my leisure.

My one big exception is Uniqlo; I have no problem paying full price there. Besides, their markdown specials are very modest. I will admit that after buying my down coat and vest in the store, I saw that they were on special online so I ordered there (and then some) and returned the coat and vest to the store.

Well, just to make you North Carolinans( Carolinians?) feel better, here in NZ we have a 15% GST ( Goods and Services Tax, a bit like VAT) on everything. That's double yours! No wonder I like to look for discounts and sales...

Here in GA, the sales tax is 7%. When on the hunt for something, I check the sales first just to see if I'll get lucky and find what I'm looking for. If not, then I head over to the regular-priced merchandise. I would be stupid not to consider the sales. I just don't build my wardrobe that way. It makes no sense to me to shop the sales just to fill my closet with more stuff.

For example, my DD is getting married next July, and it's going to be an outdoor wedding. I'm not sure if she's going to want me to wear a long dress or a short one, but that doesn't matter because I also have another cruise coming up in December. I shopped the NAS and found two really nice long dresses, one of which is more formal and the other a bit casual. I bought them both because they suit different needs in my lifestyle. I then found a really nice short dress on sale at Macy's, and decided it could also work for either a wedding or a cruise. I never would have bought 3 dresses had they not been on sale. Had I not found anything I liked, I would have waited to find the right thing. I purchased the dresses to take advantage of the lower prices, knowing that those dresses will get worn. Even without a family wedding, we cruise enough for me to get good use of those dresses.

Thistle, I feel sure you never thought your post would get so many and varied responses!

I just want to respond to Jenni's comment on taxes. I was shocked to hear your tax is 15%. That is exorbitant ! Sorry, I don't mean to make you feel bad. The state taxes in this country vary but I believe I am correct in saying none is double digit.

Also, think I am correct in saying "Carolinians" is correct spelling. Thanks for your post.

Not Jenni but also from NZ. We do pay 15% plus our income taxes are also higher than in the US. The flip side is a state health system and funded superannuation.

I almost forget about the GST as retail prices include it. But there is no doubt it makes shopping more expensive- by 15%!!

And working in our health system, while not perfect it is internationally streets ahead of the US. And because the GST is included in the price we are given, we do kind of forget about it.

Clearly I have missed a lot and must go back and read!

Combined sales tax (state and local) in California reaches over 10% depending...

Jenni, O.k, way off topic but I "have a few questions". First, not a question, a comment on Joy's post. I don't think I admitted to being a maximalist. (or maybe I did) . I think I have been diagnosed that I am by a real savvy and fun Doc. lol. Actually, I am a little embarrassed by the fact that my closest is so ("chocka). But I am in good company, seems like you and Joy are also. It is what it is. The questions for you and Sal on taxes what are VAT and superannuation and GST?

rachylou, I don't believe you have missed anything of any importance. I think 7% taxes here in N.C. is a lot but now I realize other states and countries have higher tax rates. And of course money that goes for taxes cuts into my clothes budget!

19% VAT (value added tax) here in Germany. 7% on food. And as Jenny NZ said - since it's included in the price you kind of forget about it....

We usually don't get those 30% off everything sales here in Germany but Boden is doing something similar online. Constantly having 10% off codes floating around made me think if that's why prices have gone up in recent years...

In Scandinavia: 25 (twenty-five) % VAT (value added tax) on clothes and most other items and services. Included in the price. -- No wonder we Scandinavians get pleasantly surprised about the prices when we go nearly anywhere else in the world. And a lot of people here do not exactly hate sales ...

Well I can answer on your new thread Bridgie! But "chocka" is I think short for chockablock which essentially means full to bursting! Which is what my wardrobe is!

I think this is one reason I enjoy shopping at a local boutique that carries smaller brands. She follows the old model of setting a full, fair price followed by late season sales of unsold items. I luck out very occasionally at the sales rack but usually the items/size I would want are long gone - she doesn't buy a lot of inventory of any given item. Now that she knows me she will often give me a small discount but it's not something I count on, just a nice surprise.
Of course, I can't return items (exchange only), and I can't hang on to items for weeks deciding whether they work. These are the 'games' we play as buyers, no?