If I were better at searching I would find a simliar thread I started along the same lines of this question, wondering if people here were being honest with feedback or just being kind. I wish I could find it!

Well, Annagybe, that is pretty much the A+ textbook example of not being constructive, isn't it? Certainly not what *I* mean by honest criticism.

I am 100% honest and sincere, 100% of the time (even right now). If you ask for my opinion I'll give it, but like you would give an opinion to a friend - I'm going to be nice about it while still getting my point across. I also look for orphan threads and comment on those. I never don't comment - if I've opened your post, I'm commenting. Your outfit might not be my style, but it doesn't have to be - it has to be your style, and I can appreciate that and comment on what you did well, or make a suggestion. And yes, a suggestion made in a nice manner. Unless you're wearing this, then maybe I'd have to tell you that I honestly don't like it - but wait! There are polka dots. Ya gotta love polka dots

I don't vote "go for it", IK. The care with which the forum members comment is the tone I want this forum to emulate. The care with which the forum members have gracefully answered your thread is testament to that unique tone. This is what sets YLF apart - one of the most successful fashion forums online.

Perhaps I am phrasing it too broadly, Angie. This is your forum and the tone is set by you, of course.

I would never give false praise to anyone...I have too much respect for the women of YLF to do that...
That said, I also would not be critical of anyone's style because that is just who I am...I can't speak in a way that might hurt someone either my friends or the people I befriend on the internet...If you ask for specific feedback, I am comfortable answering in a positive way, what is asked...You can always find one part of an outfit to compliment..You can always find one positive thing to say..,.(In fashion, in life,)
Angie sets the tone here for kindness...She is the absolute expert and I feel when an outfit needs professional critiquing, she is the one to do that...

So...I'm curious, IK.

Do you feel that comments on your own threads have been unhelpful because too unspecific?

Do you feel that comments on others' threads are too "nice" when the outfit itself is awful?

I guess I'm asking where, specifically, you feel that honesty is lacking? Or what is bugging you, to put it more colloquially. (I say this undefensively in a spirit of genuine puzzlement, which I'm not sure comes across in the words themselves.)

In my early days I would sometimes look at WIW posts and feel confused. I didn't think the outfit looked good but everyone was cheering.

As I read further I discovered two things.

1. Sometimes I just didn't get it. I wasn't very style savvy (still probably am not by many people's standards). So I didn't know how to interpret the outfit. As I tuned in more, I became more aware. (Not saying that is your situation by any means! Just saying that for some of us, that explains occasional feelings of HUNH??????)

2. Sometimes the poster was working within some serious limitations. There are many kinds of limitation -- budget, shopping options, body type, fear of creating waves, need to dress in a specific way for a specific job or audience, fear of being too ordinary, need to impress, etc.

As I saw more of the person's posts, I could put her outfits into context. Maybe she was looking really great for her and had made great strides with the outfit that everybody raved about. Maybe she was stretching herself somehow. Maybe she had hit her personal "groove." Maybe she had set a specific challenge for herself (like a capsule wardrobe) and was acing it.

You strike me as someone who was actually quite confident and sure of your style before you arrived here -- and while you've bought some great stuff during your time here, and created some fab outfits, your basic self-presentation hasn't really changed.

But many members here arrive without any defined style. They (we) need time and practice to blossom. So the rest of us comment in the context of that experimentation.

Oh - and one more thing -- the quality of the photos unfortunately affects the degree to which I am able to comment, honestly or otherwise. It's really hard to see details sometimes, and when I can't see it, I can't really comment on it! Super frustrating but true.

Honestly, I'm clearly in the minority in thinking that more criticism and not cheerleading is needed. But yes, when I see an outfit that I think really doesn't work, and the forum gushes, I question the forum's collective usefulness. I find it disingenuous and it reduces my own pleasure at getting similar yay votes. Really I'm not out to harsh the buzz or encourage cruelty. I just think we might be doing a disservice to people seeking ways to up their game, when we don't share our own -again constructive and tactful - opinion. But maybe cheerleading is the way to get there, after all, since so many less certain members find it so empowering.

IK, perhaps even if the outfit doesn't work to your eye, it does to the eyes of the other people leaving positive feedback? So they're encouraging what they see as a good outfit (vs empty cheerleading)? Sometimes I don't care for forum trends, but I assume that those who praise them genuinely do like them. I'm also mystified most of the time that forum members describe items as dated, as they usually look normal/fine to me, but presumably they do look dated to those giving feedback. Different strokes and all that.

I've gotten a lot of use out of this thread, because it's given me clues on how to phrase my WIW posts to elicit more critiques, which I happen to like, so thanks for beginning it.

Well, perhaps you need to be the change you wish to see. If you have a constructive criticism, share it kindly and gently if warranted, and without fear. Perhaps others will follow suit if they feel similarly. I like the respectful tone here but would not be opposed to seeing constructive criticism employed. I have received some suggestions that I suspect are coming from a place such as you describe, and I can choose whether to heed them or not. As long as the tone and content are respectful, I don't see what the problem is.

Maybe the real question is "what is the purpose of the forum?" The obvious answer is in the header--"to chat about about style and fashion"-- but the forum has also evolved into a site where members help each other explore and develop their own personal style and fashion sense. Critiquing each others' outfits candidly and honestly would seem to the best way to accomplish the latter goal, but I think the reality is much more complex.

Pushing boundaries in fashion is risky because it can often end up with the person being ridiculed by those who aren't as interested in style and fashion. Many of us ended up here for exactly that reason. Carefully worded suggestions and lots of support give us confidence to experiment; too early critiquing and "honesty" can push us back into the safe and expected.

Put another way, what does a negative "honest" comment actually accomplish except to communicate to the critiqued individual that she failed? If the person giving the F is an expert, then the evaluation might be useful, although demoralizing. If the person isn't an expert, than the F is just a put down, even if the evaluator gives "helpful" advice about how the person can improve her status in the evaluator's eyes. Years of teaching made me realize that an evaluation works best when the student is at the stage where he or she is competent enough at the task to be assessed according to an external standard. Given too early, negative assessments have a dampening effect on exploration and learning. And, to be useful, an assessment, especially a negative one, must always clearly articulate the standard against which the person is being measured. Subjective "honesty" doesn't count for much in my world.

I feel what you are saying, IK. I do think there is a bit of a line between veterans who know their style and those more fledgling newer members who are finding their footing.

IK, I totally understand the frustration with all the yay's.

If everyone is gushing over x's outfit and you don't agree, then obviously your confidence in those yays is diminished when they are applied to you. However, there have been a lot of really interesting reasons why there may be more "yays" that might be warranted (at first glance). So, how do you ferret out the Yays that are meaningful to you?

I think that you have to know whom you can trust. On my skirt thread, Marley humourously let me know that a flounce on a skirt is not a good look for me. Someone else commented it was too short--and eventually, through the collective YLF effort, it has been determined that a pencil skirt with a tapered hem that falls just below my knee (the narrowest part, as someone so helpfully put it) will be the sort of skirt I should look for. How wonderful is that? That thread is a brilliant example of how constructive criticism works (when asked for and wanted). (Of course, it occurred concurrently with this thread which probably helped, so thanks for that).

But to return to my main point: do I trust Marley? Absolutely. If Marley says "yay" to an outfit, then I am truly blessed. Ditto everyone else who responded to me--whether they say yay or nay, in future.

A relationship always goes both ways and you can only control your end of it--so try to focus on how you might be able to solicit feedback that you can trust.

That's all I've got.

Thanks for explaining.

I doubt if it is disingenuous in most cases. I suspect the posters' taste is different from yours and they are being honest about what they say they like. They may be omitting any reservations --- and maybe that's not a good thing -- but I think it depends on the context.

It is interesting, IK, that when you see an outfit you think doesn't work but the forum gushes, you question the forum. In those cases I question me!

There is no objective standard in fashion, only opinion. Last year gym shoes were completely dissed as street wear; this year they are considered fashion. I love what Gaylene has just said. I can't say it any better than that. "Honest feedback" is still just opinion, not fact.

To my mind, fashion/style is very, very personal. I don't think I can imagine an outfit that everyone on the forum would universally like or conversely universally dislike.
When I view a WIW that doesn't appeal to me personally, but gets lots of positive comments, I try to analyze what I'm not seeing. I often learn from doing that. One of the best aspects of YLF is the diversity. I hope that continues. So what I'm saying I think, is some may praise an outfit and others may silently criticize it. And that's fine, and as it should be. Courses for horses as Angie says...

I love Gaylene's and Peri's thoughts.

Let's remember this is not some sort of test. We're not being graded. If we put ourselves out there, there is always a chance someone will tell us something we may not enjoy hearing. Fortunately, YLF is a safe place to share, for the vast majority of the time. The few posters who have said unkind things seem mostly to have moved on and are no longer here.

But the bottom line is: there is no wrong or right here -- we're ALL just voicing our opinions, even Angie, and we each need to follow our own hearts when it comes to communicating our opinions to others, and to how we choose to receive the opinions of others. As long as we are participating in a spirit of kindness and generosity of spirit, I think we can have honest communication.

Interestingly, a WIW post, whether asking for honest feedback or not, that gets very few or next to no replies is as discouraging as negative feedback. I realize that no one can comment on every thread, and that people are more likely to comment on threads by posters they "know", but when one poster's WIW posted either at the same time or earlier continues getting replies and bumped, and another gets nothing but cricket chirps, it can make it perfectly clear without anyone saying a word that you must look dreadful. So silence is pretty powerful, even if it is not intended that way.

I also see much more criticism (veiled, but criticism) when a person is posting a K/R or a this outfit vs that outfit. People are much more likely to say that something 'isn't fab enough" or that one outfit far surpasses another, which is a round-about way of saying something really isn't good, IMO. But it provides an "out" when a person is supposed to choose one thing over another, so it never seems mean.

Sometimes when everybody raves about something that I dislike, I know that my alternative taste is coming into play. I tend to like dislike most trends. As much as I try to put WIWs in context, sometimes I just don't get it. On those occasions I just don't comment.

As a newcomer, I have tried to be encouraging because no one knows me or my taste and they might not know how to 'take me' have there been any things I have seen that I might have liked more if they were 'tweaked' ? Yes. Have I shared that, no, but I also did not say anything I didn't sincerely mean. If someone has something positive to focus on, I do. That said, if someone directly asked me if there was anything I would change, I'd share it. But I would do my dead level best to be tactful about it. I have had too many instances in life where people had no filter when speaking to me, and I know how that can feel. I guess what I am getting at is that I enjoy being a positive cheerleader but I also think constructive differences of opinion or sharing of suggestions, are great too.

Echo, I completely agree about the cricket chirps!! I would 1000% prefer for people to tell me what can be improved than to stay silent. I'll need to start adding a note about constructive criticism being welcome. I *want* to learn from this forum, to see things differently.

And, IK, I've also questioned all the cheering, wondering if it was just an autopilot action.

I have never been in a forum of any type, ever. It seems like i may have jumped into something here that I didn't understand the dynamics of. I joined about 2 months ago and treaded carefully while feeling my way around. I found several like-minded and welcoming "friends" quite quickly and really was having a great time watching, reading and learning. To me, this was to be a fun thing. But this analysis and criticism is reminding me of all the very things I dislike about Facebook. I know you can't please all of the people all of the time, and there is a hierarchy of membership at play here , but this? Yikes, I can get this kind of stuff at work all day if I really want to. I may just go back to being a viewer and not a poster.

I enjoy all the philosophical conversations we have on the forum, like this one. It stretches our knowledge and understanding of fashion and each other. lisap, I hope you do not leave because this is just a conversation and I do not believe IK is being critical in any way. She is just throwing her thoughts out there for collective conversation and reasoning. We all have various reasons for being here and some of us have been here for years and have seen other conversations that have different points of view and backgrounds. It is because of this, I keep coming back. YLF can be very thought provoking.

Thanks, Deb. It's the critical thinking I enjoy, not criticizing. If that makes sense.

Agreeing with Deb. It's a conversation and not a controversy as long as we remain civil. I think these meta topics help keep us focused on what we (each of us) wants from and for the forum, and I know it helps me to be clearer in my own posts. Don't leave, Lisap! The beauty is that you don't have to participate in a post like this one if you don't want to... But your contribution or abstinence is part of what shapes us here.

This really is quite interesting! I feel like I walked into a store full of women I don't know at all. Over time, I recognize different ones and have bonded a bit over "how cute are those shoes?!" and "I love your hair!". We've all traded some stories and have presented ourselves in the outfits we feel best in. It feels quite vulnerable most of the time because we all know that we are in the store because we enjoy style and want to look our best... but everyone is watching each other and analyzing what works and why. It's just an awkward business to walk up to another woman and offer "do you realize that this outfit would be so much better if the skirt was 5 inches longer?" What if she just spent the last 3 hours in an important meeting with her boss and now she's mortified? What if she spent hours picking that particular outfit to look her best to wear to a store full of women that she feels intimidated by? My interaction with that same woman would be completely different if she took a skirt into the dressing room and said "I really feel good in most of this outfit, but I'm not sure the skirt is quite right. What do you think about this one instead?" Or "Why do you think this outfit is close, but not completely working?"

My point is, I approach this forum like I do real life. And part of real life is not only knowing how to engage others according to what their needs and wishes are, but also being able to introduce myself to others. Sometimes I'm not asking for opinions when I get dressed for the day. I just want to be myself and let others see that. I just feel like communication is a two way street. I see others on this forum and they see me. Every day at work it makes me happy to give and take the sweet little compliments on colors and shoes and hair. The same things make me happy here... Plus there is the added benefit of saying, as needed, "Help! Why in the world is this not working for me?!"

Lastly, I really truly enjoy seeing all of the outfits - even the ones I don't love and would not wear. It provides variety, interest, creativity and fun to my day. It stretches me outside of myself into ideas that I might not have any other way, and keeps my own style from feeling stale and stagnant. I don't feel that it is my job to critique unless it is asked for (and even then I don't usually feel confident to do so). I just really want to support others' bravery in putting themselves out there and take interest in what they are saying to the world. And then I try to also contribute by doing the same thing myself.

Amen and bravo, Sarah the White. Very eloquently said.

Sarah, that's what I expected to do here myself. Your thoughts are eloquently put forth here. I hope there is a place here for those of us who feel this way. I did not get that sense from other comments earlier in the thread. ( Why have I used the word "here " in every sentence? ). I need to back out of this conversation because I am opinionated and don't want to get dragged into an argument - which I started by even commenting on this thread. :). Backing away and minding my own business and observing only from here on in.

Please don't pull too far away, Lisa! Your thoughts and opinions are just as valid as everyone else's. I really don't think anyone is taking this too seriously... just trying to find the balance. There are bound to be disagreements along the way.

I also think that the heart of this conversation is that everyone has a desire for personal growth - and how to use the collective wisdom of the forum to achieve that. It really is a good thing. But everyone has a different way of coming at it, and the nuances can be pretty difficult to figure out...