I hope you stay, Lisap! I for one enjoy your posts and comments.

This topic comes up every now and then. I think the main thing that will come out of it is that people who really want more critiquing will be more explicit when they post their WIWs: "Negative comments welcome," etc. I know that I will continue to post comments as I have been, tailored to the situation and the person. For some of us, fashion isn't simply about "looking good" to someone on the street but is about expressing ourselves, and even developing ourselves. So to post an outfit and receive a lot of unexpected criticism can really be painful. I think most of the forum members understand that and will err on the side of politeness.

I really wanted to stay out of this conversation because honestly, it's making me uncomfortable. I hate controversy and will go out of my way to avoid conflict. But something is really bothering me here and I have to get it off my chest.

I DO NOT care for the assumption and bordering on accusation, that praising an outfit is disingenuous. Is it being assumed that praise is a lie? Wow. Now I have to worry that when I leave a comment on a WIW post to the effect that you look fab, no one will believe me?

I'm also not caring for the use of the word "criticism" in place of "critique". Very negative connotation there.

I think we all need to remember that fashion is subjective and that Angie's #1 rule is to HAVE FUN. If I need to be concerned about every comment I post or assumptions made when I don't post, that fun will be gone.

I'm all for analysis and dissection when warranted and requested but honestly Fabbers, let's chill out

I'm with Shannon
I don't like the word "criticism" ( women all get more than enough of that) and I love being a "cheerleader".( is that bad? )
I see lots of beautiful women on this forum sharing their personal style journey with us, a pretty scary thing to do and I love how supportive everyone is here.
I certainly don't feel confident enough to critique and am happy to leave that to those with more experience.
But if I say I love what you are wearing or how you have put an outfit together......I really do

Sorry it hit you wrong, Shannon. And you're right, I should have used the word critique instead.

IK, I am all for a civil discussion and critical thought as long as the tone stays pleasant and non-judgemental. Please address the comments on the thread that are making forum members feel unwelcome and uncomfortable to comment on further threads. That is the responsible thing to do on a forum where its kind, helpful, safe and supportive tone is its strength.

About the same as other forum members - I don't comment when too busy or when I don't "get" the outfit. I appreciate boosts in my WIWs, but the most valuable comments have contained specific ideas on colour, proportion, accessorization that I could do differently. Whether or not I take the advice, it makes me think, which produces growth.

I'll have to try to be more explicit in my own threads about critiques welcome to generate more of this thoughtful outfit discussion.

I've actually developed a more positive reaction to the cheerleading ( but genuine, not feigned) approach after reading the responses from many wise posters and reflecting more on Angie's expressed philosophy. I
know I've benefited and have known that obviously the outfit wasn't perfect, but I got encouragement.

I think it boils down to " critiques" often require a special personal relationship or control by the person, to work well. A faculty mentor. A hired consultant. A trusted friend. And an environment for easy back- and- forth and NOT always permanent printed word. This is a limitation of e- mail and of forums, and why an in- person thing can work ( you can say things, read the tea leaves, backpedal and re- phrase, add positive remarks, etc).
Sure, people get to " know" each other to some extent but its not the same.
So yeah, there would be a lot if positive remarks here and if I really want some very specific feedback , I think it is up to me to use the right
questions.
I think this is the difference between the larger goals of the forum as. envisioned and successfully realized by Angie ( and Greg) and the individual goals of participants. There is overlap and room for both, but the " vibe" of the forum stays true to the vision.

Angie, I'm honestly thinking of leaving the forum due to the response here. I never meant to attack anyone and I'm sorry people find my opinions uncivil or judgmental, or my actions irresponsible. Obviously I have phrased things too broadly or spoken too off the cuff. Some members don't want critiques (I misspoke using the word criticism) and are offended I feel they are not being honest or genuine in their opinions. Some of them now fear being attacked or brought low when they post -- which I never advocated, and which I have never, ever done and WOULD never do. Hopefully I can be judged on past behavior rather than a single question, the answers to which have clarified a great deal.

IK, emotions are heightened when we discuss controversial topics. They are excellent, but can be very tricky. As a Veteran, you have seen this happen over and over again. It's my job to make sure that the members of this forum are happy - which includes you. You've received extremely insightful, thoughtful and wise answers to your question - from both newbies and veterans. Knowledge is power, so I hope that hearing several perspectives gives you insight as to why the members react and respond the way they do.

Wise and thoughtful as always, Angie. It's been very illuminating. I'd like to thank everyone who responded for their honesty and reassure all readers that the foremost mission of YLF is about being a supportive community, and nothing will ever change that.

IK, just wanted to say that just a few days ago I thought about some of the kind feedback you offered me. I picked up my flare jeansdBand and thought, "Nope! I can't wear these until I unpick the hems per IK and Ceit's suggestion." it was thoughtful, well explained, and appreciated feedback. Regardless of the course of this thread it seems to me that when you offer feedback you do so in the spirit everone is talking about here.

IK, I still remember one 'critique', if that's the term you're using, you gave me probably two years ago, when I was sort of flailing around. I remember it because I read it and suddenly realized why I wasn't happy in the outfit from that WIW, and others along similar lines.

So: I appreciate it! Thanks.

I've been watching this thread and have mixed feelings about it because, however well intentioned, it's VERY hard to convey tone through writing on the internet, and so easy for a comment to be interpreted as being very harsh. I also think that there is a big difference in the types of comments that we are talking about, and how they can be phrased. I can't convey the relaxed, helpful tone of my voice, or smile, or make eye contact online. I try to read over a critique (sometimes actually reading out loud) before I actually send it to see how it sounds if someone "reads" it in a snide or angry tone of voice.
You can try it with a few examples and see if there's a difference. For me, I am more prone to read questions as probing rather than a negative judgment; I don't know if that's universal.
"I don't think that's a good look for you."
"I don't know what you're going for here."
"Those pants are too tight."
Vs:
"This is pretty different from what we've seen of your style so far. What do you see yourself wearing this with?"
"This is a great dress, but I'm not sure if it raises the bar compared to your fab X and Y dresses that I love."

If I am pushed to re-think a look or an outfit, specifics help, and I'm much more likely to take the comment as encouragement vs. criticism if I think the person doesn't just have a poison eye toward my style or my body, or if I'm being encouraged towards how I can make something MORE successful. I appreciate it when people suggest "Have you ever thought about trying it like this instead?" and don't read that as a criticism at all. I like questions because I am free to consider the question and have a different opinion.

Is it time for a group hug yet?

Wow! A lot of discussion - and probably every possible point has been touched on, if not discussed very thoroughly. But I want to chime in:

IK, your question is a valid one, and something I've often pondered, myself.

I praise people on this site all the time, and I mean every word of it. I don't give empty praise or flattery. So if I have gushed over something anyone has posted - I am sincere in what I have said.

I look at what the person is asking when they post. Do they want feedback, or help putting together an outfit? Or do they want a boost? I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for a little positive feedback.

To me, style as a visual art - and sometimes even a performing one. I don't always 'get' some of the art of our forum members, but I do 'get' that they are all putting themselves out there, expressing themselves, and I really love that!

If I feel I have nothing to contribute to a thread, via positive comments, or helpful feedback, I don't say anything, and I go on to the next thread. But more often, I don't comment on threads, because of time constraints.

On the Friday link love, I sent in the Recovering Shopaholic (Debbie Roes') post about her own personal accountability. I think that post was so relevant to all the recent conversations here about wardrobe curating, streamlining, planning, and spending less money. But what really spoke to me, was her own experience in feeling very successful, and feeling very happy about what she had posted - and then feeling shattered when so many people chimed in to 'helpfully' tell her what was wrong with her outfits, with her hair, etc.

At the end of the day, the only person who can really make you feel truly good about yourself is you - but other people can make you feel bad. I feel reasonably certain that we have all experienced this at one time or another. I don't think I have ever seen that happen here, though. That is what makes this forum such a remarkable one, is how wonderful, loving, kind, and compassionate everyone is here.

*joins in the hug with Neel*

Along the lines of what unfrumped said, one of the things that keeps me from commenting sometimes when there's something that doesn't work for me in someone's outfit is that I know that photos can be deceiving. One or two photos from one angle, often from a phone or in the mirror because few of us are professional photographers and have that kind of time and equipment, are so reductive compared to actually seeing someone in real life in three dimensions and seeing how an outfit moves and looks in different light. So when I'm divided about whether my opinion is justified, sometimes I do think 'hmm, I bet that looks better in person' and decide not to go there in my comments. I think that's a reasonable acknowledgement of the limits of technology as well as the limits of not really knowing each other as closely as we might people we know in our 'real lives'.

IK, I'm going to be totally honest here and perfectly blunt: Don't you dare leave the forum!

You are a linchpin because you raise questions that make us all think and discuss important issues--and that, ultimately, makes the forum stronger and more useful. Threads like this one are really the only way to find out about each others' feelings when it comes to subjects like critiquing and offering suggestions.

I've never been one to shy away from putting my own judgements and opinions on display (not that you haven't figured out that one by now!) and my skin is pretty thick after having spend years reading student evaluations that range from telling me I am a goddess among mortals to I am less than pond scum. I also tend to be quite forthright and blunt when I am with people who know me well--if they ask me for my opinion, they will get it without embellishment. But I have learned, after a few stumbles, that classrooms and online communities don't always lend themselves to that kind of response. A few years ago, when I first joined the forum, I was often turned off by the onslaught of praise and "you go girl!" remarks, but, over time, I've come to appreciate that Angie's softer approach doesn't mean that critiquing is abandoned. The heapings of praise and support work because all those positive comments gently nudge people onto a road that it would be good to follow, as opposed to negative assessments that bluntly tell someone to change direction. Some of us can deal with bluntly being told to get off a path because it won't lead us to where we want to go, but there are all kinds of people who respond by just feeling intimidated, angry, or devastated.

It takes guts to start a controversial thread, and it's easy to feel under attack when you get pages of comments that seemingly are directed at telling you to back off, but please don't stop raising these issues. They may not be comfortable for many people, but they are important. The forum would be much diminished if members like you weren't around, so I'll repeat my bossy comment: Don't you dare leave!

IK - I really appreciate you starting this thread - opening up the discussion on what I thought was a pretty straightforward question. Watching how it has evolved and re-volved over the past few days has been educational in terms of what forum members' expectations are in terms of WIWs - as well as in seeing on-line group dynamics play out!

Because we all have different histories and backgrounds we're going to interpret "praise" for our WiWs in different ways. For example, with myself - I grew up receiving positive feedback in public, but very negative (and sometimes abusive) feedback in private - and so it was not only very confusing for me, but it produced a lot of anxious moments for me. I recognize now that even though I understand how that affected me, that I still don't always trust positive feedback - I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop, KWIM? So, that is the background and experience that I bring when reading the responses to WIWs. I don't always trust it - and that is my problem - not the other person's!

In reading some of the responses to this thread I'm concerned that some people are interpreting this entire issue as either black (negative feedback) or white (positive feedback.) - and I don't see it that way. I don't think that there should ever be any negative feedback given to anyone on the forum - but that doesn't mean, that if the person asks for it, that we cannot helpfully suggest something different, or give our opinion about something - in a helpful way! I believe that the person who posts the WIW should have complete control over what kind of feedback that they want - and that we, as the responders should always respect that. And again, I want to reiterate that I have a whole lot of admiration for those people who put themselves out there by posting their WIW - it is a very vulnerable position and I am amazed at the courage and the trust of this forum!

Finally - (sorry that I'm so long-winded) - what has occurred in this thread is quite "normal" in the life of a group. We all start out a little tentative, then we build some trust and get to know each other better, and then we all fall in love with each other, and then new people come into the group, dynamics and alliances are shifted and there is a period of discomfort and unrest, we get it sorted out, then someone (you) brings up a controversial topic, the group members discover that they don't all agree with each other, the alliances and dynamics shift again, people get anxious about that, some people quit the group (or at least consider quitting the group) - some people are upset to discover that the group members don't all agree with each other and they panic, some group members who are used to conflict and feel comfortable with it might stir up the dust a little more, then eventually the group kind of gets sorted out, calms down, roles are redefined and the group is then stronger than it was before for having gone through and worked through the disagreements in the first place.

It all takes a strong leader of course, (ANGIE) for this to happen. I hope that people realize how fortunate we are to have such a wise, gracious, FUN, and compassionate strong leader! I know that I am!

What Marley said. this topic gets revisited every so often I think not just because of the ebb and flow of new people coming and older posters stepping away, but because it gets to the heart of what the YLF forums are for. And we all have to work that out as a group and as individuals, and revisit it as the group composition changes.

Another thought: one reason why certain posters, including me at times, aren't particularly looking for critique when we post pictures, or don't know what to do with critique when we get it, is that we can't always act on the suggestions. Sometimes people suggest different accessories or shoes with an outfit, say, and if a person doesn't own them they might not be able to afford buying them. Or someone has to wear flats even if heels would be more traditionally flattering, or dislikes bodycon looks even if they look objectively nice on them, or whatever personal and logistical aspects come into play. A lot of times WIWs are 'look what I did given these constraints' rather than the best possible outfit of all time, you know?

Well said, Marley!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXX Group Hug XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Through praise on YLF I have narrowed down my colour palette and defined the best shapes for my figure; little positive comments such as 'nice shoes' or 'great lipstick' help to create a bigger picture which is a spring board for growth.

In my opinion accurately labelled praise can be equally as effective as critique.

Neel, I'm all for a group hug!
IK, don't leave, please!

How great is it that we have so much participation in a discussion about the process in this forum? I think that's the sign of a healthy forum.
Deb, I thought "x" was a kiss? Group hug might be more like:
(((((((((((((group hug)))))))))))))
I hope everyone sticks around - this is a special place, richer for everyone's participation and Angie(and her team)'s wise guidance.

The reality is that here as everywhere else in life, not everyone is going to agree, or even agree on how to disagree. Given that fact, it's remarkable how kind and supportive this forum is, and that is thanks to Angie setting a tone that new members see and uphold as they become veterans.

IK, you asked whether there is room here for honest feedback and opinions, and I think you got honest, heartfelt answers to that question. That's a good thing. Don't leave!

I hope that no one chooses to leave as a result of this thread. I appreciate that some of us communicate in longer thoughts with more words and others are concise and to the point. IK, you offer valuable advice and are a more abbreviated communicator. I get that since I too prefer to use few words to convey my thoughts. I also appreciate the time and effort that some of the more communicative members put into their responses. It takes more than one approach and more than one idea to stimulate thought and create an environment where we can learn and be supported.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. I found this thread to be enlightening and thought provoking and it has me contemplating my approach to the forum. Thinking before acting/speaking/typing is always a good thing.

OK, so I threw kisses at everyone, here is the hug.

(((((((((((((((((((((((((( group hug )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Agreeing with Gaylene - don't you dare leave IK.
AND I love what Marley said; if the people who feel threatened by critiquing & the people who don't get cheer-leading can learn from each other & meet somewhere in the middle then I'd call that a successful forum.
Hugging you back deb

Wow, what a great discussion. Thanks, IK, for raising it, and thanks to all who participated.

I haven't read through this whole thread but I wanted to chime in. I think it takes a lot of courage and a lot of effort for many of us to put pictures of our selves on the Internet to a group of strangers for advice. I'm naturally a cheerleader and reading some nice comments about my own outfits really gave me a boost that I needed some days. Sometimes we are hard on ourselves and it is good to see our bodies in a more positive way, how others actually do. I think that the best way to get specific advice is to ask for it. I don't feel confident to point out an actual improvement in an outfit unless I know what the issue is or what seems off to the poster.