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Homeschooling parents: opinions on this article?

Aziraphale

Veteran

http://unapologetic-conjecture.....oling.html

For the record, I don't homeschool, but I'm meeting an increasing number of parents who do. I met a couple yesterday at my husband's work party, and the wife mentioned in passing that she homeschools her kids. I did not ask why, but I wished I had. I am genuinely curious to know people's reasons. In our area, the only parents I know who homeschool do so for religious reasons, or else because their child has a learning disability and has not received sufficient support from the public school system (and the parents cannot afford private). But this woman I met did not seem the religious type, and it's unlikely that all her kids (there were three) have learning disabilities.

Anyway, the above article pretty much sums up my feeling on the matter (and I did used to be a high school teacher, so I can related to what the author is talking about). Homeschooling seems like a terrible idea -- I mean, you get a well-intentioned but untrained, inexperienced teacher at every single grade level (at least for the oldest child in a family!), subject matter presented from the point of view of only one person (and we're all biased), and, most importantly, a relative lack of crucial social experience for the child. And yet more and more people are homeschooling. What am I missing? I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

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101 replies

Latest reply was from Isabel

Kim

Veteran

You used to be a high school teacher, so my question is to you, do you think that 8 hours a day, inside a room with 30 other 15 year olds and one adult (who has no power to discipline in our schools) is really good socially? (I didn't read the article, sorry, I don't have time at the moment) but I did homeschool all three of my kids throughout their school years, up to and including high school.

The above is one of the many reasons I chose to homeschool and they chose to be homeschooled. It worked out well for us.

ironkurtin

Veteran

Kim, I'm not a teacher, but yes, I do think children spending structured time with their peers and other adults is good socially. I don't know about "no power to discipline" -- I do know that when my kid doesn't perform, she is penalized, and when she does, she is rewarded. I have seen and heard homeschooled children flounder outside in a non-customized world.

If my child were not thriving in school, I might explore other options, but I have not had a negative experience with the system.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Kim -- when you get a chance, read the article. I'm genuinely interested in homeschooling parents' rebuttals to it. It puts forth some excellent arguments.

To answer your question: YES, I absolutely think school is good for kids. (At least, it was at both high schools I taught at, which were, admittedly, not inner-city, "rough" schools. The one school was in an upper-middle-class area and most students were from a relatively privileged socio-economic background. The other school had many students from a more working-class background, but I actually found that school a little easier, discipline-wise -- fewer privileged smart-asses, lol). I find that kids are basically nice. People are basically nice. My classroom was a civilized place. And what kids learn in the hallways at school is super-important, socially. They learn how to interact with peers in an environment that is the closest approximation to an office environment that you can get. Also, keep in mind that these kids don't have just one teacher. They have eight. By the end of middle school and high school, they will have had between eighty and a hundred teachers (that's eighty to a hundred different points of view), all of whom have more expertise in their field than the average parent. Also, teachers have had specific teacher training, and most have had years of experience teaching their subjects. (I certainly wouldn't feel qualified to teach any subject other than science or art to kids! Also, even though I have training to teach high school, I feel totally unqualified to teach young kids. It's a completely different job).

Incidentally, 15-year-olds (grade 10) are actually the best to teach -- old enough to act rationally, but young enough to be enthusiastic and not too stressed, yet, about life after high school. I don't think I ever had classroom management issues with a grade ten class.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no power to discipline"? Of course teachers can discipline kids (I kind of liked giving detentions, actually -- it kept all my test tubes sparkling clean!). The one thing you can't do, in the public system, is kick a child out -- but there are sometimes transfers to a different school, if a child is a real discipline problem.

rachylou

Veteran

Well, for some reason, I started to rub elbows with the Ruby Ridge set in college. Catholics afraid of the horrible crazy ideas being taught in parochial school. Like guitar mass. I mean, ok yes, guitar masses are an offense to the soul, but honestly. Get a life. They all home schooled, and their children were horrible monsters. Serial killers in the making.

On the other hand... I went to liberal public and private schools, and I remember. I went to private school because I was sick and the public system does not come with lifeguards. You sink or swim, and that's your own problem. In any case, both tried to teach me ridiculously foul bad and untrue things.

Anyways, dd went to public school. When she came to live with me, I wanted to keep things stable for her, so I left her there. But we had home school too. She had to at least be able to use a telephone book, for pete's sake.

To learn, you have to be able to ask your questions and get answers. Someone has to respond to you. You don't actually that get in a classroom. One of the things we talk about in my profession (human performance & technical communications) is how the classroom is the perfect anti-learning environment. Also, children absorb the most from the parents. Parents tell you who you are, and who you are determines what you will pay attention to.

The social aspects of development are the main thing I think you get from school. If you're lucky, you also might know how to read a bit when you get out. If you're super lucky, you won't also treat pregnancy like a disease.

Yes, I went there. Haha. Ok.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Oh, one other thing. It's not eight hours a day inside a high school classroom. It's only about five. School starts between 8:30 and 9:00, depending on the school, and gets out at 3:00. Plus there is a break and lunch.

I'm not attacking you, by the way. Your personal experience may have turned out totally fine. And the school system is far from flawless (small class sizes would be nice, for one thing). But my biggest fear for homeschooled kids is that they might not learn the nuances of social behaviour that are so important for navigating the real world.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Rachy, I've been pregnant twice. It FEELS like a disease!

Aziraphale

Veteran

Wait, hang on. What do you mean, you don't get to ask questions and have them answered in school? Of course you do. By the teachers, and also by everyone else there. And you learn to sort through information and think for yourself. Like I said, parents can only provide one perspective.

rachylou

Veteran

Azzy, baby, I got maybe .001% of my questions ever answered in school. If you got to ask one question every day in a class, you'd be damn lucky and an attention hog. Everybody knows better than to do that.

My dad taught me math, even tho I really liked my geometry teacher and he was very encouraging. But my dad taught me math.

ETA: You have to be able to sound out your thought process. Ask those kinds of questions - strings of 'em in a row. That so does not happen in a classroom. And office hours are always cut short.

Echo

Veteran

I had a very long reply written, but I feel it might be too controversial/political, and I don't wish to offend or alienate anyone here. Overall, I'll just say that in most cases I am a strong proponent of kids attending public (or at least a private) school.

Echo

Veteran

Regarding attention from teachers or having questions answered, it is heavily dependent on the school one is attending. It goes without saying that there are horrible schools out there. But there are fabulous ones as well.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Rachy, we all have different experiences. I had a very different experience at school than you did, I guess. I seem to remember a lot of one-on-one interaction with teachers, and if the teacher was busy, I'd bug one of my friends to explain something I didn't understand.

I'm not saying that parents can't ever teach. My own dad helped me with math the odd time, until I outstripped him. And it's true, a teacher is not a tutor, and cannot give students their undivided attention. As far as actual academic learning, I don't think you can beat a team of competent, patient tutors. But how many parents can be an entire team of competent,patient tutors? And how is one parent going to teach a child how to fit in with other kids?

I think parents need to be there to provide learning support for their kids, for sure.

rachylou

Veteran

My dad was neither competent nor patient... Well he was sorta patient.

I will tell you that I think there was something about you, that you got decent one on ones with teachers. I was marked for high potential and so I did also get special attention. And I still did not get to ask anywhere near the number of questions i think it takes.

Most people I've ever met were overlooked. I get to meet a lot of the overlooked working in factories. They rely on friends and they get stoopid answers.

Aziraphale

Veteran

hee hee. I guess it helps if your friends are bright, too.

What about getting answers from books? Quite a lot of the time, that's how I learn. Certainly in university, you're expected to do a lot of book learning, with the TAs and professors only there for support.

catseye

Veteran

I used to feel the way you feel, but I have been having second thoughts. For one thing, the public school curriculum is less than inspiring and the kids do waster a lot of time at school. At the same time, a lot of highly educated people are homeschooling their children with great success. I have a friend who has a Ph.D in physics is homeschooling her two kids. The secret is that homeschooling has reached a critical mass in most relatively populated area and there are lots of co-op types of things going on. The parents get together to hire special teachers in art, music, what have you. The homeschooled kids have more time to socialize in these group activities than when they go to school.

Having said that, I still am not ready to do this myself. I cannot imagine not working any time soon after spending so many years in school. I hope my son will like school, but I am prepared to do some afterschooling because the deficiencies of the curriculum.

rachylou

Veteran

The whole idea of using a book to get answers comes from the home... I'll tack on an IMO for the sake of it here. I lived 15 years in the ghetto. Dd is a child of the ghetto (we call ourselves ghetto preppie, hehe). But I volunteered in those schools... When dd first came to live with me, she wanted to do something - I can't remember now - but I told her to go look for a place in the phone book. And she just had no idea what to with it. She didn't understand its organisation, how things were categorised, even that she should look there in the first place. Certainly no one had ever bothered to mention it in school.

I remember myself, years after getting straight As in trig, learning that trig was the measurement of things with triangles. It would have been nice if someone had mentioned that at the time. I feel I might have become a mathematician. I was in the class because it was the next one after Algebra 2.

ironkurtin

Veteran

Rachylou, I learned early on that to get questions answered you have to keep asking them. I'm sorry your schooling failed you in this way. I don't think homeschooling would have helped in this regard, however, if the person you're asking doesn't know or doesn't want to tell you. I recently learned some of the parents at my kd's extremely liberal school had told their children the most egregious lies about sex and how babies are made. Sooner or later these kids are going to learn the biological truth, even if they're homeschooled.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Has anyone actually read the article?

Catseye -- "afterschooling" is not the same thing as homeschooling. My kids get that, too. Like I said, kids need parents' support in learning. Naturally, some of us are more qualified to do so than others.

Rachylou -- oh, now I understand you. I am in no way qualified to give commentary on education in, as you say, the ghetto districts. I'm from Vancouver. Like I said to Kim, I taught in (and was myself educated in) a comfortably middle-class environment. We're talking relative privilege. But the homeschooling I'm commenting on is also happening in that sort of environment -- the kind where public education is actually pretty good.

Aziraphale

Veteran

And ditto what IronKurtin just said.

catseye

Veteran

I did read the article. What I was trying to say that the homeschooling now is not the homeschooling I thought it was. A lot of them are probably still have a religious reason, but more and more are parents of kids who for one reason or another did not think public school is the right fit. A large and growing group is homeschoolers of gifted children. And there are a lot of resources of homeschooling as well. For example, there are lots of lectures on math and science one can access via the internet. I think the downside of homeschooling has been reduced.

rabbit

Veteran

I have many thoughts about this having gone to private, public, and alternative public schools myself, and having taught at suburban middle class high schools, inner city high schools, and alternative schools for at risk kids many of whom had been kicked out of public schools. Also studying a lot of education theory in grad school.

Ideally class sizes would be small or broken into teams and work-groups, schools would be diverse, economically, racially, and religiously, and parents would spend time supporting/coaching their children with homework when they come home from school. In the real world people have to look at their options and do the best with what they're given.

But two things kind of boil it all down for me.

1) We don't know what we don't know. Parents (like everybody else) know some of their blind spots, but not all of them. A parent might be a physics Phd, but what if their child is most interested in dance? Or the visual arts? Or learning other languages?

2) In the US at least we are getting more and more fragmented economically and politically, and we now tend to get our news and information from echo chambers where our own beliefs are enforced rather than challenged or expanded. I don't see this as a good thing. Also I feel like without our schools turning around with more social buy-in to the value of education for all - helping our neighbors' kids get educated as well as our own, it signals that we're kind of ready to stick a fork in it as a country and creates massive social and economic problems that even the best educated/most privileged kids will need to deal with down the road.

Also what's a phone book? Oh, you mean the proto-Google

Life skills, I don't know if schools have really ever taught that at a fundamental level outside of ISP's (special ed). Looking back I would seriously have added a 'personal finances for dummies' section to the curriculum, since my parents didn't really cover that one. Luckily they made that book and the interwebs fill in knowledge gaps.

ETA: in terms of socializing. I think the hard part is socializing with people that are completely different from you in background, beliefs, and experiences. That's also the most valuable part. The ability to code-switch, and to learn how and when to code switch by observing people and building commonality across differences is hard won, but necessary IMO.

columbine(erin)

Veteran

I don't have time to read the article. I will say as someone was who was home schooled, then went to college, I think people worry unnecessarily about homeschoolers getting enough social interaction. I grew up in a very rural area, but we had church, get togethers, Bible quiz team, field trips, tutors for certain subjects, homeschool coops, dances, recitals, online classes, hiking trips, etc and all kinds of ways to interact with peers. One of the things I enjoy about my homeschool young friends is that they can play with friends' baby siblings, peers, elderly people, etc. with equal enjoyment and facility. Not to say public school kids can't do this, but I think homeschool kids get a lot of practice navigating groups with many different ages. Personally, homeschooling suits us medically right now but I will be happy to use online schooling and private schooling and tutoring as well. I enjoyed being home schooled and think my parents were able to give me some experiences we wouldn't had had time for otherwise (boat building, sailing, farming...

deb

Veteran

Are phone books still delivered in your area? Yes, it was necessary when my kids were young because we did not have the internet. The ability to use the current tools available is very important. My parents never spent time with me on my homework because that was my job not theirs. I was expected to learn. I raised my children the same way. There were 40 kids in my elementary school classes. This was in the 50's and 60's. And no aids. There was no one-on-one. We did have a buddy system where the top performers helped the lower performers. I did my student teaching in class sizes of 35 and my students were behaved for the most part. I respected them and they learned to respect me. I do believe homeschooling has its place for some children in the lower grades but for 8th grade on, interaction with others in a class room is invaluable. This is when a child learns to have discussions with their peers with opposing view points. This allows the child to think for themselves and not be afraid to state their views.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Columbine, the article is worth a read.

I know the homeschooling community provides some social interaction for kids. However, do the kids ever get to interact with those who are not the same as them? Families with different cultural backgrounds, different religions, different nationalities, different values? Because going on field trips with other kids from your church is not the same as attending school every day with kids from all walks of life.

Kim

Veteran

I've read the article and all the comments here, and all I can say is that in OUR family, our children turned out not to be "sotards" as the author puts it. They are all socially responsible, productive adults with plenty of human relationships that are functioning quite well. Two of the three have completed college level and the third is "finding" herself.(LOL)

ALL of them have made comments to me about how the people at their workplaces are AMAZED when they find out that they were homeschooled. They don't fit the stereotype that is out there about homeschooled kids not being able to interact in the "real" world. They navigate it quite well, actually.

I'm not saying all school systems are bad, in fact, I'm not saying any of them are. I did quite well in school. I excelled, and was able to learn a lot. I didn't have the joy of learning robbed from me by a bad teacher.

I could make a lot of rebuttals to the article, but I'll just say this: One can not generalize something like education. Every single child is different and has different needs. They must be met, but often aren't. This can happen in the system, just as easily as out of the system. It's not fair to try and villianize a group (homeschoolers) when the other system fails a percentage of their own group quite badly as well. Here in Ontario we have implemented a required reading test that the children must pass in Grade 10, (or sometime before grade 12) to graduate. Wait. What? Some children can't read, (or can't read well enough to grasp a concept) and they've been in school for 12 year now? How does that happen? Who failed them there? And why are they not being held accountable for it. And a child that is not reading well before grade 10 is probably NOT having a great education experience...I'll venture to say he'll be the one out in the back field smoking pot with his friends...(I know, my hubby was one of those kids.)

I'm not going to blame all the (good and great) teachers in the system, because the system failed some. There's no perfect solution on either side, but to my mind my children's spirit and self confidence was in my own hands, and THAT is what I worked on over all those years. All the other facts can be learned at any time, but an eroded self confidence takes years and years to repair (if it ever can be.) And I was FULLY aware that the outcome was entirely on me. I had no one else to blame if this all went horribly wrong. Don't think I wasn't scared! LOL

TraceyLiz65

(website)

Veteran

Homeschooled children participate in activities and actually have more time to do so... There are groups that get kids in the same age group together, as well as theater programs. and sports.Not to mention my son skypes with players his age that play the Minecraft came...They just talk and don't even play quite a bit. There are teen boards at our local library and volunteering they can do at local musuems. This summer my son will go to camp for a week with peers.

. it is the first thing everyone cries about homeschoolers, social skills... in reality how much time do kids really have in school to socialize.. with standardized testing taking up so much of the priorities..There are some really fabulous teachers out there , but many are having their hands tied by the current testing sytems.. .My other 3 children who went all through school get quite fired up at the idea that there is so much social time provided at school and feel their brorther is much better off.

I never thought I would be a homeschooling mother, and deeply regret I didn't take that step with my oldest child... I am in my 3rd year of homeschooling my youngest (14years old) and originally thought i would homeschool through middle school, but the system is never getting him back... I sent them a sponge, a child who loved learning, they killed that in him and i know have a sponge. Homeschooling allows for fabulous options these days online with programs that are superior and address my verbal learner.

There are limitless options for learning with so many websites with info, YouTube alone has immense resources for extras..There is a lot of ignorance regarding kids being limited to their parent as the only teacher.. The internet gives access to more than we could ever want or need... to say that we are unskilled at every grade level is riduculous and shows lack of knowledge in what homeschooling really is , the child's one teacher is teaching from one perspective while I have numerous programs, teaching styles and the internet at my fingertips.. My 18 year old came home from school last year and taught himself online because his teacher was doing a terrible job in the classroom...We have a public school styem that is faling and teaching to the tests which is much more dangerous than homeschooling!!!!!

My son felt like he wasted so much time in school waiting for slower kids to finsih math, when he could have used more instruction in reading... He was 3 years behind and now is at grade level, thanks to my efforts..

I think I have a very unique situation in which I have 3 children who went to public schools all reaching adulthood , with my third graduating this year. All 3 of them agree that homeschooling has done wonders for their sibling. My daughter who graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Psychology and is heading to Boston College in the fall to pursue her Master's tells me all the time that high school didn't prepare her for college and life, we as her family did...

I am so glad to be doing this for my son and know that if I had left him in school, he would not have ever corrected the reading and writing issues. He never would have been ready for college... He never saw himself in college before now... Just didn't see it for himself... but now talks about it all the time..

sydney2

Thanks for posting this article Aziraphale. Your last comment: Because going on field trips with other kids from your church is not the same as attending school every day with kids from all walks of life; reminded me of a story about my 5 year old. She attends a public school, from the first day of the school year there was a boy she did not like. He had not done anything specific to her, it sounded like he was a noisy, rambunctious boy who liked to wrestle a lot. The kids sit in tables of four, and the teacher changes their seats monthly. My daughter said if she ever had to sit by this boy she was going to change schools. One day she came home from school and said that they changed seats, and she was sitting by this boy. That is all she said. The next day she came home and told me how funny this boy was. By the end of the week she decided that she was going to play with him at recess. This is one of the reasons why we choose to send her to school.

Syd

MsMary

Veteran

I read the whole article. My initial reaction was "Really? Is this still the argument used to criticize homeschooling? I thought we were past that by now." I am a product of the public schools (elementary and secondary) and am no huge homeschooling proponent, but it seems to me that the author of the article set up a lot of straw men and then knocked them down. The homeschoolers I've known have been socialized just fine, TYVM.

TraceyLiz65

(website)

Veteran

Just read the article and am outraged that this author talks about the importantance of Emotional Intelligence and kids teaching to each other through other kids letting them know their behavior is annoying.. We have so many adults running around lackiing in Emotional Intelligence who went to public school. This is not taught at school, but at home and dare I say in churches ( i am not a church goer, but a very spritual person). My youngest child , the one I am homeschooling has an extremely high level of Emotional Intelligence that was showing as early as age 2 and grew tremendously due to his family experience... To think school is a place for Emotional Intelligence is the most riduculous thing in that article along with many others... A very uneducated and ignorant article For crying out loud the title has the word Conjecture in it... That says it all, it's based on incomplete information and has little merit and little truth..

rachylou

Veteran

Rachylou, I learned early on that to get questions answered you have to
keep asking them. I'm sorry your schooling failed you in this way. I
don't think homeschooling would have helped in this regard, however, if
the person you're asking doesn't know or doesn't want to tell you.

It's interesting, IK. I have a couple of thoughts. The first is about that social development which school provides. Because one of the things you are socialised to do in school is to keep your questions to a minimum. You've got, say, 40 minutes for a class. The teacher will spend 20 taking roll call, and then has to give his/her lecture. That leaves 5 min tops for questions for 35 kids. You've got to keep the ball rolling. Everyone knows that.

The second thought is, I think homeschooling did help. Call it afterschooling if folks prefer. My dad was very smart but a terrible, terrible teacher. Every lesson was an ordeal. But he was my dad. He wasn't focused on the ball; he was focused on me.

Also on the subject of socializing with people of different backgrounds, beliefs, experiences... that never happened in any school I ever went to. You could draw a line down the middle of the courtyard - there was a place for rich kids, poor kids, white, asian, black, mexican. Not even my liberal peace-and-love hippie school. No, that happened during hyper conscious bridging activities, where people were made to interact.

Oh! And yes! We still get phone books. Also, the phone book is one of the most seminal creations ever. It's a masterpiece of organisation and thought, and lends itself to the principles the web is built on. Information designers trot that thing out all the time and hold it up like the Holy Bible.

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