"You do not develop positive social skills from being ostracized, teased, bullied, and treated like a pariah." No, you don't. You're absolutely right. And that's why I said, sometimes homeschooling is truly the only solution. My heart breaks for your daughter, who already has some serious struggles under her belt, and will encounter more. Like they used to say to gay teens in intolerant areas, "it gets better". Children and teens are still learning compassion, but you find lots of it in the adult world, and your daughter will get through the difficult school years and find her place.

But for most kids, homeschooling -- even if it's for bullying -- is not the only option. Sometimes bullying happens at one school, but disappears when you transfer the child to a different school. This is especially true if it's a different type of school, or if the school has better administration.

As for the many "ordinary" children whose parents homeschool because they don't like the school system? That's what undermines the system. It's a vicious cycle. The more committed, involved parents who don't send their kids to regular school, the worse it is for everyone. Plus, the homeschooled kids have the many disadvantages that the article (and others on this thread) have outlined.

I've got to add: this has been a fun debate.

Agreed! This has been the best homeschooling discussion I've seen in years. It usually degenerates pretty quickly between sides, so I hesitate to jump in. It's a testimony to the ladies here and the spirit of this website that it's been a great discussion and both sides have been respectful. You ladies are not only FAB in fashion but in life!

Oh and just one final comment, (have I already said that in all my other posts??LOL) about the parents not having enough skill to teach all subjects. That's probably true, if you teach in the "formal" way, like the school does. However, we didn't do that as we had no intention of ever returning the kids to the public school system. So we were free to pursue our interests as far as we wanted to, and we did.

I know I might not be able to teach my kids everything, I quickly found that out. What I was able to teach them, (and what I'm REALLY good at myself) is to find the resources they need to get the job done. Reference books, tutors, experts, internet, and more. It's a vast, vast world out there and everything is available if you want it. Knowing how to find what you need is a skill that will serve them for the rest of their lives, and it served them well when they were in college. They never thought "I can't understand this." They just thought, "Where can I get more information on this, so I can then understand it?"

They're gonna be just fine...

What a fascinating discussion. I've just read through the whole thing and many thoughts have jumped to mind, but many of you already posted some comments and observations I've had.

My perspective on this may be easily dismissed, and that's OK. I don't have kids. However, my two stepsons are products of a rural public school system in Virginia, and honestly, I'm fairly impressed with most of what they learned. Their mom is an elementary level teacher in that same district. They both did very well in school and were accepted with scholarships into two of the most competitive arts colleges in the country (Berklee and MICA). My husband and I attended public schools. My mom taught in public schools, etc. But that's beside the point -- we all have anecdotal evidence to support our opinions.

I have a kind of unique experience with the homeschooling movement because I worked at an independent (private, non-church-affiliated) school for nearly a decade. That school also has a homeschooling division and provides homeschooling curricula to thousands of students all over the world. I worked there in the late 80s and into the 90s, when home schooling was making some news headlines for accreditation standards being implemented in certain states of the US.

Twenty years or so ago, it seemed that a much larger percentage of homeschooling families were homeschooling for primarily religious reasons. There were plenty of very sheltered children only learning things that their parents wanted them to learn, and being denied any education of subjects that their religious beliefs didn't support (evolution most famously). This was always one of my concerns about home schooling -- the parents being the ONLY source of information for their children. Granted, this is an extreme, and I think most homeschooling families out there now are motivated by factors other than religious division. But many of those impressions of a sort of cultish type of education remain in the public mind.

I have met many homeschooled kids, as well as private-schooled, and public-schooled ones, and guess what? There are socially-awkward, ill-educated people from all of those backgrounds. I cannot attribute lack of social skill or poor education simply to what form of schooling a person had. There are too many other variables. Correlation is not causation and all of that.

But here is one of my big concerns -- Gaylene introduced the thought, and what Aziraphale wrote bears repeating:

"As for the many "ordinary" children whose parents homeschool because they don't like the school system? That's what undermines the system. It's a vicious cycle. The more committed, involved parents who don't send their kids to regular school, the worse it is for everyone. Plus, the homeschooled kids have the many disadvantages that the article (and others on this thread) have outlined."

This. I'm not saying that people shouldn't homeschool if they decide it is the best choice for them and their family. It is a MASSIVE commitment and I tip my hat to anyone who takes this on. But I really wish the public were more committed to making the public schools in this country the best in the world. We're all in this together, folks. As much as I admire the DIY spirit of homeschooling, part of me is afraid it's yet another way our culture is moving away from helping one another and just taking care of "our own."

Stepping off my soapbox now. I did read the original article and even though I am sympathetic with some of the observations, I really disliked the combative, superior tone, and they turned me off straightaway with the "sotard" term. I'm sorry, that's just awful.

I don't think "ordinary" people pull their children out of school to homeschool them for no reason at all. In fact, I think the premise of this post is probably the key to it. WHY do people choose to homeschool? Ordinary people like me? Because the only system we have in place for the education of my children was failing my children badly, and I had to take action. So I did.

Once I got out of the system I began to see that there was so much more to education then sitting in a classroom, often bored to tears on a non-interest subject or sometimes so far behind that your confidence in your own ability to learn is destroyed perhaps forever. (That was my son by the way.) It's actually given me a dream for a better public system (to my mind). I'd like to see a system where children learn "the basics" to a certain point at their own pace in a mixed age system. Where they have plenty of free time to explore their own interests and discover their own goals, dreams, and aspirations with lots of support from interested adults, peers and others. I think the Sudbury Valley model is closest to the "perfect: system in my own mind. If we had had one here I would have happily had my kids go there. Here's a link:

http://www.sudval.com/01_abou_01.html

I can get behind public school education, and I do support social systems like free school and medicine, (I am a Canadian after all.LOL ) People are not leaving the school system in droves here , so I don't fear it will collapse in on itself any time soon from our leaving to do what was best for my children at that moment. I could not sacrifice my child's future now to the "good of the public school" as it stands. It's not a "not in my backyard" kind of thing, it's that it's MY children and they are MY priority ahead of any system they may belong to. Their welfare will always come first to me, that's what makes me a Mom. I wanted to give society well-rounded, educated, thoughtful productive, socially responsible adults, and I have accomplished that goal. Taking them out of school was only part of that equation, but it played a big part, giving us the time we needed to help them define their own characters.

So, my thinking is that if the system is concerned that those who are leaving will leave a gaping hole and the system will be weakened (severely or not) by their loss, perhaps then the system should investigate WHY people are leaving, and address those concerns in a real way. Yes, some kids get through school just fine. Others do not. That's not right. Period. I know we can't fix every problem. I know it's a dream, but it's a good one. N'est pas?

Oh, and you might know more homeschooled kids than you think. My kids are 25, 23 and 21. No one asks them anymore "where they went to high school" and they fit right into our society. Lots of people they have met have never known they are homeschooled as it's not a usual topic of conversation at their ages. I don't think you can judge the grown adult by the awkward adolescent you might see mid-way through their eduction journey.

Maybe I am alone but as a kid I felt very in control of my own academics. If I was bored to tears in a class or felt out of my depth, I switched classes or spoke to the teacher. My experience is probably very different because I went to a private school; my daughter is attending one now in immersion Spanish (something I definitely could not give her), and if there's any issue I speak to the school directly or work with my child to overcome it. I really feel for parents who aren't able to make these changes themselves. However, I also know many involved parents who only make the situation worse for themselves and others, even in a private school setting. As parents we can only do what we think best, right? That's what the therapy jar is for.

IK, I felt the same way.

On the general topic of school reform and education theory, there has been a lot of work done. Gardner's multiple intelligences which Tracey mentions came out in the 80's, there have been several experiments in 'unschooling' like the Sudbury Valley school Kim talks about, there are community schools which place students as interns in various community settings, magnet schools, mixed grade levels, etc. These all exist in some public schools, although some smaller schools require testing or a lottery to get into them if there is a high demand. Many are quite small with 600-1,000 students.

The coalition of Essential Schools was started by my professor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C.....al_Schools, and focuses on condensing a lot of the best practices of educational reform and theory. It's only one approach however. There isn't a one-size-fits all, and there doesn't really need to be.

Teachers coming through teaching training programs within the last 10 years or so should have been exposed to most of these theories. Many larger schools are trying restructuring experiments with portions of their school if not the whole program.

I went to a public alternative school with about 600 students. The majority of students at this school are eligible for free or reduced lunches and are non-white. Almost all graduate from high school and over 90 percent of graduates attend college afterwards, and several go to the best universities in the country. Our school wasn't particularly well funded either, it was housed in a beat up old elementary school and we didn't have sports teams (although you could play them at your district school) but our chess team kicked ass.

Sometimes I look at all the education theory and the successful models, and then the way national programs get implemented (No Child Left Behind and was such a bad idea, and Race to the Top has gotten deserved criticism). I also look at how potentially promising ideas (the Common Core) are misunderstood or implemented in such a way and at such a time that they meet with intense push back from all sides and have the opposite effect intended.

I don't think vilifying teachers is the answer. In the US 50% of teachers who have already invested in getting their teaching degrees and often masters degrees in education leave teaching within 5 years. I once figured out my real hourly wage as an English teacher counting all my curriculum development time, lesson preparation, and making detailed comments on student work. It was lower than 3$ an hour. Teachers really need support from their administration, community and parents. Sometimes they get it, and the opportunity for continual training. Sometimes they don't.

Kim, you make some very good points. And it does sound like some of the American school systems are in far more dire straights than the one we have here. You say "perhaps then the system should investigate WHY people are leaving, and address those concerns in a real way". YES. Precisely. Hear that, government? The schools need more funding!

However, I started this thread because of the increasing number of Vancouver parents I'm meeting who homeschool their kids, and our system is good! I totally understand the ones who pull their kids out because they are floundering at public school. Even a good public school fails some children. If it were me, I'd look for alternate programs first, and homeschooling would be a last-ditch solution, but every parent makes the best choice they can. When your kid is struggling, you make changes, right? We do what we think is best. But when I said "ordinary" kids, I mean the ones who would not otherwise struggle -- the ones who would have done perfectly well in our Vancouver public school system, and their parents choose to homeschool anyway. That's the part I don't get. That's what I'm increasingly seeing, and it feels like a bandwagon. Special cases aside, I think the more parents who homeschool their kids, the more it's going to erode the entire education system.

I'm certain your children have become perfectly lovely adults, btw. It's not like homeschooling is the kiss of death for your social life forever. But that funeral I mentioned? With the inappropriate jokes? That was one of my second cousins, and she was 27 or 28 at the time. It's just one anecdote, I know. But still. Awkward.

Rabbit: Thanks for the comments in support of teachers. It's an important and sometimes thankless job.

IK: fully agree with what you just said. My daughter is going to late French immersion next year. I speak French, but I would in no way be able to provide that kind of opportunity for her myself.

Brenda, thank you for your reply. Your first post seemed, to me, more like a statement. And you are right, examples on both sides can be found. In fact, one prominent example that is regularly in the media is that liberals constantly get called "Maoists" , "Nazis", " Commies who want death camps" and so on. And let us not forget Sandra Fluke who got called a "whor*" and a "slu*" by adult, Conservative "journalists" and radio personalities. These were not anecdotes. I actually see that more than I do vilification of Christians and/or Conservatives. I think, however, that the media has perpetuated a false notion that Christian Conservatives are victimized regularly - and people play into that. Conservative voices are very well heard and representented.

I can tell you that in my kids' school ( as well as the inner city schools that I have volunteered in ), they have mock debates and "elections" during Presidential Elections and conservatives are not mocked at all. They present their cases and everyone listens. In fact, one child ( I was present when this happened ) took the position two years ago that Obama was not born in this country and therefore should be ineligible and not one adult said anything. He also called Obama a liar and all sorts of other things. Completely disrespectful of the office. Romney won the mock election ( we are a very conservative town ). No one said a word. The kids hammered it out.

Regarding the MI boy who wants to take his Bible to school, from the Christian Post,

Superintendent Dr. Laurine VanValkenburg told Fox 2 that she will look into the incident, and said that "if a child wants to bring a Bible to school, they may."

The other incident, being reported by a parent in TX, was also an 8 year old and this is the school's reply ( the issue is not that it is a Bible, it seems that if the child brought in a children's Bible that he could understand and read independently, it wouldn't be a problem - I looked into this ) :

"Cypress-Fairbanks ISD officials released a statement and also said is has not confirmed the allegations are even true.

The district's statement which read in part, "During a student's independent reading time, students are required to read a book that is "Just Right." A "Just Right" book is when the student can read most of the words, comprehend the text and that the book is appropriate for the type of text or genre that is being taught. As such religious material, including the Bible, that meets these guidelines would be permissible for a classroom assignment and/or independent reading."

There are also examples of kids being banned or attacked for wearing both Romney and Obama t shirts ( by teachers ).

If Christian Conservatives alone were being vilified, then Dr. Francis Collins would not have been named the head of the NIH. He also was co-chair of the Human Genome Project and is highly regarded by everyone. On a personal note, he is a great guy ( my husband knows him ). Imagine ! A devout Christian heading up the National Institutes of Health !

There are reasons to homeschool beyond simply quality of education or a bandwagon. A huge one for us is the efficiency factor. My 7 yr old is reading at an appropriate level and doing 2nd grade math. He can be done with his work quickly and spend the rest of the time being a young boy, He can interact with brothers and friends, run around outside, build legos, put together large jigsaw puzzles, discover bugs, play with our cat, etc.. Why would I want to put him in a classroom for 5+ hours a day when we can be so much more efficient at home?

Obviously high school takes much more time, so that reason isn't complete valid for the older kids. But it is to some extent. My 14 yr old is seeing how much more free time he has to mow lawns, read, and fish than his public schooled friends. They might be done with school around the same time of day, but his ps friends have homework to do after school when he's already done.

If we were talking about adult efficiency of labor, it could accurately be argued that it's more efficient for one adult to be teaching a bunch of kids rather than me teaching my own. I'm not arguing that it's more efficient for me necessarily. Though I've talked to many homeschooling moms who have said they gained time in their day when they started homeschooling. Driving students back and forth to school and dealing with homework can take a lot of time for some families.

We also love the freedom we have to school year round and take breaks when we choose. We get discounts on vacation trips because we can go in the middle of the week in the off-season. I can take the kids and spend a week at my mom's house during the school year. My kids can help their grandparents with yard work during the week. It all evens out school-wise because we do school all summer. But their options would be much more limited if they were committed to a classroom schedule.

Other reasons to homeschool that don't necessarily apply to our family:

*avoid bullying
*medical problems
*very advanced student
*delayed student
*want basic, classic math taught rather that new methods
*distance from schools---example, parts of Alaska
*concern about school violence--Columbine, etc.
*behavioral problems in student or other students not being addressed in school
*time for kids to pursue own interests

I could go on and on.

This has been a great discussion. I just want to give my experience on the efficiency & free time factor. Qfbrenda wrote that her son can be done with his work quickly and spend the rest of the time being a young boy. This was what we wanted, my daughter loves being outdoors & exploring. She attends public school & we still have plenty of free time. Yesterday before school we went on a 5 mile hikes in the woods searching for wildflowers (my daughters idea). She then went to school. After school we stopped off at the playground where she met some friends, then dinner, tee ball practice, we worked on homework, helped her write a book that she is making for her stuffed animal school, she read some books to me, I read some to her, then bedtime. This is a typical day for us. We wake up early, and we do not watch tv which really helps to give us more time every day. She has plenty of time for her own interests. Plus, if you factor in half days (in our district it adds up to 12 weeks), teacher work days, holidays, and summer break there is quite a bit of free time.
As far as efficiency goes in the classroom, yes you probably can get much more accomplished academically in less time at home. But, it is all the extra things like the assemblies, show and tell, racing to pick up the classroom at the end of the day, and many other things that may not be efficient but are important socially. These are the things I hear about when I ask my daughter about her day at school.
My concern is what has been mentioned by Aziraphale, Gaylene, Janet, and others. The "ordinary children" being pulled out of public school, or never given the chance to attend school. In my area there is a huge number of parents who homeschool. A surprisingly large number of my daughters friends she made at the playground and various other activities did not begin going to Kindergarten when she did, but instead are homeschooled. Many of the parents complain about having to pay taxes on schools their children do not attend. Voters in our district repeatedly reject funding for the schools. Like I said above the school has a total of 12 weeks of half days (3 hour day with no lunch), this is likely due to the shortage in the budget.
From my experience locally it seems like parents are making the decision to keeps their children out of school due to everything we read & hear about the school system being broken, overcrowding, bullying, stifled creativity, gifted kids not being challenged, boredom, etc. The parents already have a preconceived notion of the school system, they then begin reading up on homeschooling and hear of children who had horrible experiences in the school system which further solidifies their view of the school system.
There are obviously problems in the school system, it does fail some kids. I had many of the same worries as the homeschooling parents. But, I sent my daughter to school, I volunteered in the classroom. I saw how many amazing, creative things they were doing. I also saw the huge amount of socializing with her peers, working together and teaching each other. My daughter is doing great, she is still creative, asks tons of questions and loves to learn. All these thing are encouraged in her regular public school classroom. I am just concerned like many of you about the future of the public school system.

Sydney2, that was so well said. Thank you for adding your voice.

I thought I was done with this, but apparently, I am obsessed. : )

A couple of things on this thread really struck me and I had to look into them further as I looked into the 8 year old and the Bible in school...which turned out to be a disingenuous story being circulated on the web ( and several Christian newspapers finding no evidence of fact ). It disheartened me greatly, that "Christians" felt the need to make up a story ( now being copycatted ) to disgrace the public school system. With that said, I am not picking on anyone here...I am taking issue with all the websites and bloggers and news organizations who just tell the part of the story that they want in order to support their ideology ( or make it up altogether ) . This makes me very sad because it discredits us ( all Christians ; it discredits me ) as a result.

I found that the Home School Legal Defense Association has been after Obama since 2008. Christian groups, with Christian militias leading, have been circulating emails and stating that he is opposed to parents' rights and wants to do away with homeschooling. This all started 6 years ago. Now there are protests by the same groups claiming that the Core Curriculum, to start next year, is going to impose "Obama left-wing agendas on our children". Because of this, homeschooling is growing at 7-15 % a year in the US, with 2 million plus kids in homeschooling. Apparently, the Obama girls attending Sidwell and the school that Rahm Emmanuel's kids attend, is now a point of contention and protest ( I couldn't figure out where that came from or how it fit in the debate. It seemed so random. Then I tripped on the news of protests regarding the adiministration's Core Curriculum and it made sense, of course. It is the new talking point ). Apparently this is making the news and blog rounds...though they had no problem with No Child Left Behind and that the states now teach to the core requirements that NCLB mandates. Instead of debating the pros and cons, they just use the children as pawns.

This is all very disheartening because the debate is not about "educating" our children but rather "moralizing" them and separating them from the " morally lesser". I have a problem with that. And dare I say, so would Christ. I don't like to speak for Him but this I feel rather certain of. It is pretty clear in the Bible. ( I hope that I don't offend the non-Christians. I ask that you bear with me since so much of the homeschooling movement does appear to be faith and morally based - I had no idea ! )

I want to say that this is not true of everyone who home schools. It is not true of my friends at all ( as I said, one is on the school committee ). I guess I was being naive in thinking that most people were like my friends. I was also naive in thinking that the debate, overall, was being done in good faith. I think that the overall debate has to be more honest. Excuse me for feeling a bit blindsided now that I have run numbers on it.

This has been a very elucidating and thought provoking thread for me. I know that I am definitely thinking deeper and more lucidly about working as a society for the betterment of all our children. It definitely taught me to look into things further before believing whatever is broadcast or mass emailed. And, it has me more committed to making sure that every child has access to a good public education.