I think the bottom line is that no one, no matter their age, wishes for the term to be applied to them perjoratively.
At one of my jobs, I'm the young gal, at the other I'm the old gal, in relation to my coworkers. I'm still the same me, it's just which view I'm being seen from

Very interesting comments. For me "old" is a relative term. I'm 49, with salt and pepper hair and lots of attitude! So I'm often told I look much younger but I wouldn't trade my experience for youth if given the opportunity. To me experience makes us who we are and that only comes with age. That being said I don't plan on "growing old" gracefully but fighting every step of the way. My dear granny at age 94 (living in a nursing facility) replied when asked why she chose to eat in her room instead of going to the dining room replied "hmpf" I don't want to eat with those old people"! I almost choked! but she didn't see herself as old and I think that's great. We should see ourselves the way we think we are and never mind whether other people think we are old or not! Beauty and happiness come from within.

I am half of 50, but just had to share that my mom is 51, and BY FAR the most fabulous person I know! Her style is amazing; I literally love EVERYTHING she puts together and NEVER have to give her specific ideas for gifts, I just say 'clothes and accessories' and she NAILS it every single time.

Us young bucks should ALL look up to any of you..I hope to have half this style by the time I get there

53. Age is just a number. That's all.

Mary, great comments. I was nodding along with your comments about using terms that feel personally empowering. Somehow "lady" has never appealed to me, but strangely enough I sometimes use "girl" for myself, although with tongue in cheek. When I think "girl" as applied to me and my friends, it's a bit more "grrl" -- an empowered feminist with a bit of punk rock attitude left over from coming of age in the 80s.

Mary, Can you expound on your words, "I kind of think, with all love and respect to my sisters who feel
differently, that embracing the term "old lady" in one's 50s and 60s and
even 70s is perhaps both inaccurate and promoting outdated stereotypes
and ought to be done with extreme caution"....

Because that's my tact. I live with teens/young adults and work with young adults and I know they do think of me (and their dad) as old. So we embrace the label.

Personally I also do feel empowered by accepting that I am old(er) and that this is nothing to fear. And I am really striving right now to limit my judgement, stereotypes and prejudice of old people.

So the inaccuracy might be that another 50 yr old does not think of me as old, but I can assure you that young-20's definitely have that perception. And I don't think this is promoting an outdated stereotype......but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

I find this very interesting.

I was driving with my mother a year or two ago (she is now 77), While waiting at a red light we saw a woman walking across the street in front of us. My mom commented on the "poor old thing". I probably shouldn't have but I laughed and replied that the "street walker" was probably at least 10 years younger than she was. My mom wasn't referring to age as much as condition when she made the comment as the woman crossing the street was having obvious difficulty navigating the road and had a walker type of device to assist.

I also deliberately used the term street walker to demonstrate how much context affects the meaning of words and phrases.

I turned 51 this year and don't feel old. I often have to remind myself that my child is in the same age group as many of my co-workers. I forget. I do see signs of aging in my parents though. They are very active and fit for their ages but have slowed down dramatically in the last 5 years. To me, this is the sign of "old" rather than the year they were born. My mom used to complete the NY times crossword puzzle in an hour or so every weekend.. I noticed a few years ago that it would often be laying on the coffee table with little completed. This was another sign of "old". Alzheimers is prominent in her family. These are signs associated with aging that are not decision-based. I believe what we are discussing in this thread are perceptions decisions/choices more common to older people.

I suspect we have all known people who have attitudes that we consider old even when they are young. Usually it is a very defined sense of practicality that puts fun at the bottom of the priority list.

Having said all that, I still have a tendency to associate those elastic waisted pants, mushroom sneakers, and the tightly permed and blown out hair as being OL. I mean no insult by it whether I think it or say it but will be a bit more sensitive to it now that I have read this thread.

Isis -- can't speak for Mary. But here's my own take on it. I know I seem older to my daughter and her generation. And so I should! I am older, and happy about it! (I wouldn't go back to that age myself if you paid me!)

But I don't seem "old" to them.

Ah, but you are deluding yourself about that, you might say. But no. My daughter is quite explicit about it. "You're not old, Mum. Grandma's old." (My mother is 88 and quite frail with various health complaints.)

So it seems her perception is pretty similar to my own.

I am happy to own the term "middle-aged." No problem with it at all. But like Mary, I don't see myself as an old lady. No way, no how. And it's not because I don't respect older women. When I am around the age of 80, then we can discuss the term "old." I suspect I may be ready to embrace it then.

And Dianthus raises an interesting point as well. Some of what we call "OL" fashion is related to people sticking to a style they wore in their youth (i.e. permed hairstyles). While other parts of OL fashion are to more related to practicality, safety, body needs as we age. Maybe we NEED to adopt the second kind (to prevent ourselves from falling, say). But we don't need to stick with the styles we wore in our youth.

Ah, Suz. Maybe that's the difference. My 17 yr old (and 21 yr old) do consider me to be old. We laugh about it when I can't hear, or I prefer skirts to my knee, need help with the computer, or whatever. Perhaps this is because my mother, who is 80 is in fantastic health. Hikes, walks every day, computer-literate, generally looks modern in jeans and a colorful top. So my mom and I are lumped in the same boat. Perhaps my kids have fewer categories for age.

I remember a thread several years ago started by someone on the forum who needed clothes for a parent who had limited mobility, perhaps was in a nursing home. Lots of great advice ensued about considering mobility, laundry, ease of putting clothes on, shoes.....and what could still be done with choosing color, etc. An eyeopener. I think I've had a sheltered life!

ETA: Here is the thread. So much kindness and great advice:

http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....erly-women

I am loving this discussion and all the ways it is branching off. Thank you all for engaging!

I do feel I want to go back and reiterate my initial plea. I asked that we please stop using the term old lady in a pejorative way to describe fashion we don't like. That was not aimed at anyone in particular I promise, but at all of us. It comes up often and I would be willing to bet if I had nothing better to do than go back and read all of my old threads and comments that I would find I have used it too.

Now, we likely used it with no insult intended. After all, many women of the higher numbers do dress in a certain ways for multiple reasons of their own. But fill in that blank with any other population demographic and you will see how it can sound. "That looks like something a homeless person would wear. That looks like something a disabled person would wear." Keep going...there are other words I can't even bring myself to type. Not a single one of you could either...it would feel and would be shocking. But we often use old lady this way...to say something is bad.

My intention at 54 to embrace the term is half tongue in cheek, to put a little fun in. I know I'm not 90. It just means for me a way of laughing at the challenges...to stop feeling apologetic about it and start feeling more bold. But to say it is only a number doesn't really embrace reality either. My body hurts in ways it did not when that number was lower, and that most definitely is not just a state of mind.

And yes, it is all relative. When a teenager says email is for old people, they are including 20-somethings. Once when I was just past my 30th birthday I learned through a third party that two of my students were discussing why they had to write their own notebook assignments when I used to write them myself. The conclusion..."She's old and her hands are weak". Just a funny story.

So, it doesn't matter what you call yourself! But can we please just call those clothes utilitarian, or not trendy, or not in style, or I don't like them, or any other way to say it besides "that looks old lady".

So what I am not quite getting is why it is insulting or offensive to reference a style that is specific to one's circumstances. Have we come so far in our need to be PC that we can no longer include any statements that include a tendency towards a particular style that is more appropriate for one in an obvious group or category? Some of us live in cold climates and no one would bat an eye at a reference such as "looks like something a northerner could wear" but if we altered that to be "looks like something an Eskimo might wear", I suspect some would take that as offensive.

My point is that there are commonalities among certain groups. Does making reference to that commonality become offensive?

This is really interesting and getting even better as it veers into new territory.

I wish, I wish, I wish we could drop the descriptor and just call ourselves and those who are older and younger...Fabulous Ladies...
Maybe one of these days, we will...

I think in this case, Dianthus, it's the idea that "old lady" is so often used in a pejorative way -- to reference something we don't like. Whereas "that looks like something a northerner might wear," presumably includes no pejorative intent. Er....I hope.

But ...Peri...honestly...I don't know. The thing is....there IS a style that can be associated with certain older women (i.e. the perms of their youth, the SAS shoes, the elastic waisted pants). Just as there are styles that we typically associate with teens or other age groups. Should we ignore that reality in our discussion and analysis of fashion?

In fact, perhaps when we say to a young or middle-aged member of the forum, "That looks a bit 'old lady' to me," we are not insulting older women so much as we are suggesting that the item or outfit in question seems age inappropriate for the forum member?

Is it also not okay to say (as we also often do...and in slightly pejorative way), "That looks like something a teenager would wear," or "That looks too "junior-like."

In fact, that may be exactly what the questioner wants to know! Does this look like something a 14 (or 94 year old) might wear. Because if it does, I am not giving the messages I want about myself. Clothes telegraph age just as surely as they do social class, profession, lifestyle, interests. And most of us (I think) want to suggest that we are stylish members of our actual age group rather than another age group .

I understand that age discrimination is not a good thing. And perhaps, by referring to the clothing in question in that way, we might be reinforcing stereotypes.

Granted, also, that various forum members have extremely different views of what is age appropriate.

I'm feeling a bit muddled about it, to tell the truth. I don't want to hurt anybody or reinforce stereotypes. But at the same time, I want to be honest to my own perceptions. And sometimes, when I look at an article of clothing or an outfit, I really DO think, "old lady."

Would I wear a pair of elastic waist pants even though I associate those with older women (primarily)? Of course -- and I have done so! Would I wear a hoodie or a graphic tee even though those looks are associated with teens? Yes again. But these are the kinds of items we need to examine with greater care to incorporate into a mid-years adult style. And being aware of their ordinary associations is helpful in that task. Or...at least...it's helpful to me.

Suz, you just explained my thought so much better than I did. The point was that there are commonalities to specific groups. Why does acknowledging it become insulting?

Isis, I find it's often helpful to define our terms. So I looked up "old" in the dictionary and this is what I found:

adjective I truly don't think most teens or twentysomethings believe a fiftysomething is "old" in the sense of "far advanced in the years of one's life." I suppose, given that most of us won't live to see 100, the second definition could apply, but still, I think it's best reserved for people in much later decades. And again, the third definition -- far advanced in years -- just doesn't seem to fit a 50something.

That said, I suppose it's more than possible for someone in his or her 50s to adopt the attitudes and demeanor of old age and become an "old man" or "old lady" ahead of schedule. (See definition no. 3, above -- "worry had made him old.")

Butt honest and truly, I was in grad school a few years back with young women who were then in their early twenties, and I still consider many of them friends. We meet up for coffee and drinks and have a grand old time. I absolutely, positively, guarantee you that they do not consider me "old," nor do my son and his friends. I have to think that either you are using an unusually elastic definition of "old," or your experience with the younger generation is not typical of most of us in our 50s.

Coming back to say that to expand on my previous comments, I think that to the extent younger people DO think people in their 50s are "old," we should set them straight, if only because age discrimination in employment and health care are real and pressing concerns!

OMG. you all are having one of those philosophical paradigm-shifting conversations and I have not been able to jump in! I need to read this whole thread from start to finish... GAH!

A couple of more thoughts... I agree with Suz that I, for one, do not wish to look like an old lady, given that I am not one, so feedback in that regard is helpful to me. Ditto looking like a teenager.

Also, on the bigger question, I feel like women tend to be self-deprecating to a fault, which can lead to our not being taken as seriously as we should, and I think a fiftysomething woman referring to herself as an "old lady" plays right into that. And back to "the personal is political," when one 50somthing plays the "old lady" card, it tends to make it just the tiniest bit harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously as vital people who should be respected and reckoned with. (Again, with all love and respect to everyone who is participating in this awesome conversation!)

Ah, now I understand, Mary, "one 50somthing plays the "old lady" card, it tends to make it just the tiniest bit harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously as vital people who should be respected and reckoned with"….

Also it just occurred to me that when a 57 yr old plays the old lady card, it also denies the reality of the elderly. I am not leading the life of an elderly woman.

Still, in the confines of my home, I do enjoy calling myself an old lady!

As for Suz's comment, I think Peri is pointing out that when we call something "old lady" it is always negative. That is the danger of prejudice, isn't it? We'd never say "that is something (insert ethnic group) would wear, and it is not you" in a similarly negative way.

Disclaimer: I do wear SAS sandals….

Here's a related thought - isn't our age itself effectively an component of our outfit and style? We have discussed this in other contexts. An outfit that might be frumpy on one Fabber might be killer on another, because each person brings their own persona to the mix, be it hair, attitude, stance, and yes, age AND beliefs about age.

I don't aspire to seem either younger or older than I am (I was more horrified than flattered that a 24 year old tried to pick me up on the beach this week, leading my brother to call me a cougar). Rather, I aspire to be MYSELF. Coloring my hair blue may seem "young", but I didn't do it for that reason, or did I avoid it for that reason. How does intentionality fit into this discussion? Is defaulting to stretch pants different than putting them on as a conscious fashion choice? Are yoga pants the polyester stretch pants of Gen Y?

As usual, I have more questions than wisdom to offer!

No, but as Suz pointed out we would and so say "That's something a teen would wear, and it may not be what you're going for."

Honestly, although I'm generally always ready to get up on my high horse about things like this, I think "old lady" is a term I don't ever want to have applied to me, for reasons I explained above. When I am in, say, my 80s, I will be an old WOMAN who still won't want to dress like an "old lady." LOL

I think in fashion it has a specific meaning and I'm not all that bothered by it in that context.

ETA: That was for Isis.

Una, yes! Yoga pants are definitely the stretch pants of Gen Y! Too funny!

Are yoga pants the polyester stretch pants of Gen Y? HAHAHAHAH!!! YES! Yes, they are! And will millenials laugh at me listening to that 'old music' when I've got Van Halen or Soundgarden on in 20 years? Probably. HA!

I think each of us have terms that push our buttons, (for lack of a better term). Mary's is 'old woman', mine is 'girl'. My question is how are we to know which terms are ok and which are not. In all honesty I do not mind being called an old woman even though I do not fell like an 'old woman', just do not call me a 'girl'. Is it OK to use the term 'older woman' for someone in their 50's?

I think it's important to note the difference in calling an outfit or item of clothing 'old lady' or 'teenybopper' and calling a person those terms.

Yes, Mo!

As I said above, I think any time we start to put modifiers with the term "woman," we start to get on slightly thin ice.

Me personally, I would hate to be called an "older woman." Honestly, there are few contexts in which that information is relevant. Certainly not at work or in public life. If you need to describe me to a stranger, you can guess at my age if you like, which would be more helpful than "old woman" or "older woman," which could mean anything from 35 to 90, depending on the hearer's biases.

LOL, I think "Baby Boomer" is actually quite handy for describing the general age range!

Actually, Isis and Peri -- sometimes we do say "that's like something X ethnic (or social) group would wear." Those discussions have come up quite often on the forum. I recall in particular Modgrl has had some threads (the Russian party threads) where we've gone over this. And these discussions have revealed prejudices -- yes -- as well as aesthetic differences.

But they've been interesting and enlightening for all involved. And I think Rita found them helpful. Through them, she was able to strike a balance between what the social group might expect of her and what felt comfortable or authentic to her in that situation. Knowing how others outside the social group might perceive the outfits was a useful part of that.

Mary, I like what you said.

Good point, Mo. So we should not say 'that looks like something a girl or an old woman would wear"? If that is the case, where does 'dressing our age' fit in?

I want to second everything that Mary K just wrote about women in their 50s considering themselves "old ladies". That's usurping a term that rightfully belongs to women in age group that is looming ahead of me as I venture into the realm of 65 and beyond. For most of us, the realities of aging won't kick in until our late sixties and seventies until they hit with a bang in our eighties and nineties.

Isis's link to an earlier YLF discussion about trying to find appropriate clothing for our aging mothers, though, is a good wake-up call on how hard it might be to maintain our stylish selves in our latter decades. I get Suz's point about there being an "old lady" style that most of us use to describe a subset of clothing that veers towards the "assisted living/senior condo-dweller" look; we might understand why our "elderly" mothers wear this type of clothing, but certainly can't ever visualize it as our go-to outfit choice.

See, my problem is that pictures of "super" seniors who share closets with their 30-year-old daughters and celebrities who drop thousands of dollars on custom-made designer clothes don't seem--I don't know--realistic? The big issue seems to me to be, if we know what we don't want style-wise ("old lady style"), then how do we meld dressing stylishly with the practical issues that will confront us--a wide variety of body shapes and sizes, limited budgets, and maybe some very real on-going health issues. Because, I'll tell you right now, giving up my J Crew skinnies for Alfred Dunner and some unnamed section at the back of Walmart doesn't thrill me one bit.

Totally hear you on that one, Gaylene -- and I think there is a dearth of great style for older or differently abled women. It's a huge hole in the market waiting to be filled. Someone had better get on it soon because if they do a good job there are a heck of a lot of us who will be all over it!

If you all saw what I look like the first half the day lounging around in my slumpy clothes with my bed hair and no make-up I'm pretty sure I would look like an "old lady" or "old woman" I don't really see the difference.
I do agree it's relative to what as younger women we saw older women wearing. When I was a child "old women" didn't wear jeans. In my 20s "old women" wore jeans and dressed in general younger. It's really just what society has decided in the moment is young or old. I think there are trailblazers too, the ones that keep moving with fashion instead of staying stuck in their generation. Sometimes these ladies are said to be "mutton dressed as lamb" ( gosh, I hate that phrase). As the number of these lamb dressed ladies rise so do the expectations. The ones that adapt are youthful the ones that don't are "old ladies".
I have trouble understanding labels. For example why is it OK for women to wear their husbands clothing without being labeled but if my husband wore my clothes he would be cross-dressing.
Anyway, there's no escaping it. Unless I die now I'm just going to get older. What the heck is wrong with being old anyway. I'm a crone, and really that means nothing.

Yes Isis, that's what I meant.

And yes, Gaylene. We need to send this thread to the clothing industry. Given that some amount of clothing concessions are in the future...however far off...for all of us if we are lucky enough to get that far, let's put it on them to make more beautiful clothing than what is currently offered to meet those needs.