Loving this conversation. This is why I admire the women of YLF so much.

Perhaps the concessions are not that far off. I used to wear heels a lot but don't any longer because they cause pain. I used to wear low backed dresses for formal wear and don't any longer because it is harder to find the appropriate undergarments.

I think most of us have shifted as we've aged but don't see it necessarily as concessions to age but rather to an evolution of our style.

I read MaryK's comments and while I agree, the bigger issue is wage discrimination or the gender pay gap. I find it offensive that a woman earns on average only 72% of what a man in a comparable position earns. To me, that is the big issue. Call me what you want to call me as long as you treat me as the equal to a man who does the same work at the same level. I will now slither off my soap box.

I completely agree with that, Dianthus. But it's all intertwoven and I think the discriminatory language makes it easy to perpetuate the other types of discrimination.

The ultimate ageism -
The only thing worse than 'Mutton dressed as Lamb'-
'Mutton dressed as Mutton' (!)

dianthus, I totally agree with you on the wage issue. Why are we still having this conversation after all these years? It makes me angry.

I love being able to follow this conversation, and I haven't joined in yet because as a 27 year old, I've yet to face old/older age discrimination. But I just wanted to say that all through my 20s, I did not consider people in their 50s old, or lump them in with the next generation! In my mind, my grandmother, now approaching 80, is old. My mother, at 53, is not. And one of my best friends in the entire world is in her late 40s; I actually feel more a generation gap between me and her kids (17/13/10) than between us! I certainly do not think of her as old.

"Lamb, hogget, and mutton are the meat of domestic sheep. The meat of a sheep in its first year is lamb; that of a juvenile sheep older than one year is hogget; and the meat of an adult sheep is mutton." Wikipedia

Lyn, the above description gives rise to a possible third option:

"Mutton dressed as hogget while referencing the spirit of lamb"? (Until the first bite when the distinctive flavor leaves no doubt as to what is on your plate.)

What is “old”?

I have a friend, a psychologist, who is very interested in
aging. She recently told me that studies
have found that thinking you are old can make you feel physically older than
you would feel if you thought of yourself as being younger.
In other words, how you feel about your age has a significant effect on
your physical well-being.

I remember many years ago Playboy Magazine announced on its
cover that “THE AMERICAN WOMAN IS DEAD AT 21”.
I think I was about 23 at the time, and this did not make me feel good. The implication, of course, was that a female
at 21 was too old to be physically attractive.
So let’s admit that we have made some progress.

E, you raise an interesting sub-topic. You may have experienced ageism in reverse depending on where you live. How often do you think a woman in her mid-20s to mid-30s has been passed over for a job because the employer was concerned that she would take maternity leave?

In Canada, parents are entitled to take up to one year of leave after the birth of a child and 37 weeks after the adoption of a child. The first 15 weeks is maternity leave and must be taken by the mother but the balance is parental leave and available to either parent. I suspect this will be the factor that evens the playing field for young women in our country.

This conversation gets more interesting every minute.

Catnip, dead at 21? Playboy has never held a place in my mind for pro women nor anti-ageism so would have not paid attention. Dianthus, I did not know that about Canada.

I just asked my 80-year old mother what is "old" and she said -- 80. She has pain and mobility issues, and that is making her feel old. For me, my "scary" old age is 85. Because I read that 80% of people 85 and older have *some* form of dementia. So that's what sticks with me.

But to come back to the original topic, I will try to avoid referring to clothes as "old lady" from now on (it wasn't in your PJ work pants thread, I referred to them as "loungey" not "old lady" -- but I may have used that term somewhere else). I think from now on I will try to avoid terms like "frumpy" or "dowdy" except when describing myself as in, "these make me feel frumpy." This thread, in addition to the good philosophical content, has made me not want to hurt people's feelings when they provide a link to something they might like.

Please, CocoLion! No offense taken by me personally from anyone. Please don't anyone think I am mad at you! It was just a general feeling that has been growing as I read the phrase semi-regularly, bothering me more over time. And as I said, I feel sure I have used it too and won't anymore.

It's true the jammie pants post was the final trigger to talk about it, but the funny thing is I wasn't thinking of them for me at all...there wasn't a plan to purchase and my feelings weren't hurt over them. Thistle had said "where are the work pants that feel like Jammie's?" She was frustrated and I was trying to find options. That's all!

Dianthus, you're completely right of course. Although in the US our maternity/paternity leave situation is epically tragic. :/ I have a friend who's pregnant right now; she'll get 6 weeks off, and 2 of those will be her vacation for the year. I'm not even sure all 6 weeks are paid. Grim. And when she told her boss (a woman) about the pregnancy, her boss tried to push her into working part time, even though she loves her job and is the primary breadwinner, and thus has no intention of cutting back on hours. Have you read The Invisible Heart? It's a fabulous book aimed at a general audience by a feminist economist, if you're interested in those types of issues! Really we can't catch a break...

I actually popped back by this thread to link to a blog by a retired professor who now looks at fashion history, especially focusing on US women 50+: http://americanagefashion.com/

E, please submit this to Inge for the weekly Link Love. This is a wonderful site.

Yes ma'am!

ETA: using ma'am in a non age-referencing sense, lol.