Did I mention how I appreciate this thread and US here on YLF reading this at first I was offended by the question. Reading the responses and subsequent information has been a balm.

I have been a bit cautious about joining this conversation up I just want to add that clothes should fit everyone. Every body is unique and everyone's "best" size is individual.
I too have been an 8- an 18 and neither end is good for me. I was food obsessed at an 8. Completely unhealthy and eating disordered and at an 18 I was depressed ( not bc of my size rather my size was an expression of my state of mind ).
I am a 14 now and would like to be a 12. No lower. And that size , which is perfect for me, sizes me out of many lines.
I think we are very judgmental in this society about weight, like we think we know it all if we are thinner, I find myself getting like that when I am " eating well" then I have to tell myself ..seriously..get over yourself!!!

A bit off topic, but Jenn's comment about not needing to justify or explain her body's size or condition really struck home with me. I know forum suggestions are almost always meant in a kindly attempt to be helpful, but I think it's a good reminder that none of us know each other well enough to offer advice unless a person specifically asks for it.

My reasons for eating what I eat and for wearing what I wear are mine. I can choose to share them with others, but I need to remember my thoughts, preferences, and solutions come from my bubble and are not universal. No one should ever feel the need to reveal health, or other personal information, on a fashion forum even if the intent is to be helpful.

Thanks for the reminder, Jenn!

Reading this with interest. I am hesitant to join the conversation because I am not and have never been a plus size (despite some weight ups and downs), but a lot of things said resonated with me all the same on a personal level. Also drawing parallels to different issues that are near to my heart. Thanks to all who commented.

Alexandra,
you have posted before on YLF that there are times that you've been sized out of clothing for being too small to fit the clothes.

what if I had written:

From the many conversations here on YLF and post and comments on various blogs, I've gathered that small-sized women want clothing manufacturers to make fashionable clothes in smaller sizes. There seems to be a lot of anger and frustration involved. Frustration with the situation and anger at the manufacturers. To me, it seems like the women take their small size as a given and want the other party to change their behavior (make smaller clothes). This is rather unproductive. Wouldn't it be more productive to change one's own behavior and figure out what made the woman scrawny to start with offending food or habit can be eliminated?

I'm not saying this is easy, but it it doable. It takes an special diet to figure it out so there's a bit of work involved. It's not always the number of calories, sometimes (maybe often) it's the food....

----

Would you feel judged?

Would you say "hey, I have the right to be my size?"

How about "I LIKE how I look"?

Would you feel condescended to by my telling you how to gain weight?

Would you say it's unproductive to bemoan the lack of smaller sizing and the solution would be a focus on eating so you can gain weight?

I think it would be helpful for everyone to remember that ready-made clothing is made to fit a dummy...and none of us are dummies. From size 0 to 22 and beyond...they are made to fit dummies. Us fabulous smart women just haven't a chance...no matter what size the label reads.

...Truly, only Mom gets to pick at you, and then you go join group therapy...

Not group therapy but YLF lol fashion and therapy

Just wanted to add an anecdote about my experience yesterday. I picked up my uniforms for my new job (at an amusement park which employees 4000 people). Like Beth Ann, I am average sized for an American woman (plus sizes are too big, and I am at the tippy top of the size range for most retailers). The first shirt I was given to try on was a men's size medium..... because they assumed I would be too big for the women's shirts. It fit ok on top other than the baggy sleeves, but I couldn't button it over my hips. Clearly not cut for a woman, and also they are cut much larger than the womens. Then they had me try on a L women's shirt. It fit just fine, but it's the largest size. If you wear larger than the average women's size, you have to wear a man's shirt. It's kind of humiliating.

Khris, one of my friends who is in a similar "in-between" size range frequently ends up buying men's sweaters -- even though the fit is not perfect, at least they somewhat accommodate her size, and the quality is usually better than women's knitwear. And she is a professional woman with money and need for fashionable, nice clothes. You're absolutely right.

Chewyspaghetti- My company supplies us men's shirts to wear for our job. Oh how I used to hate it. But then I discovered a great seamstress at my local dry cleaners . She is amazing and works wonders. It is affordable where I live. She puts bust darts in and takes it in at the waist. It is the best feeling. I size up but then have it taken in. Again if you can afford it. That problem is solved.

Ledonna- I have to give the shirts back eventually, so they can't be altered.

Janet-that's crazy!

Yes -- my mum is a broad-shouldered 12/14 and shops in the mens department quite a lot. Women's tops are often too constricting in the shoulders but if she sizes up to an XL it's too much fabric everywhere else. She wears a lot of men's size 9 shoes, too, because it's so hard to find women's size 11, especially since she needs a wide width. She's also a knitter, so now that all of her kids are grown up and she has a little bit more spare time, she pretty much makes all of her own sweaters.

LP, I would really be curious to know how big the market is for women who shop in the men's department for this reason. I don't think they are the women who tend to hang out in a style forum, but they are clearly an underserved market!

LP - I often have the problem your mom has, although I don't shop the men's department. It is very frustrating to feel so constricted in clothing, and that's why I wish for clothing to fit all body types.

Not every company needs to carry every size, but it is frustrating to not find a fit for your body, or to have it be exceedingly difficult. "Plus size" is not an outlier, and the dollars really should drive better market coverage.

I think I may start getting clothing tailored, like Ledonna suggests. I'm not sure why I haven't pursued that avenue yet.

Hey, Ledonna: next time you tailor a work shirt, would you share the before and after? That might make an interesting thread that can be of real practical help.

Very interesting discussion of an important, challenging topic. While I don't have much to add, I tend to start with the language and assumptions we use when talking about the tough stuff. The descriptor "plus size mentality" seems to presume there is such a thing. That is where my discomfort lies.

Thank you Eliza for expressing my thought abut the descriptor and thanks to all who shared on this topic.

I just want to say I want to hug a LOT of the fabulous YLFers who are posting on this thread. You are all fabulous and worthy and I wish for the entire world to see that.

Beth Ann

I sure can after I have the baby. We just got new ones. Probably around June or July of 2017. Little nugget is due in April I want to hopefully see where I'm comfortable with my after baby weight.

I have very broad shoulder and used to have a narrow waist but now with body changes. Lol but I sure will.

Eliza, YES.

LP, exactly.

And Janet, I think a number of us (women who turn to menswear to have *something* to wear) would indeed be very interested in frequenting a style forum. But even here on the most civil fashion forum there is, in many of the best-meaning, likely neutral-sounding-to-most articles and threads, there's a lot of indication that our reality isn't entirely relevant here. And resistance to that idea ("But everyone is welcome here!") only serves to hinder exploration of that and put up barriers to connection, so I wonder why I'm mentioning it at all.

There's also a huge amount of blind privilege in the idea that it's ok to have this kind of discussion, tossing ideas around as thought exercise, on the backs of people directly affected by it. Were responses by those of us who were labeled "Plus-Size Mentality" really voluntary? If, when we'd pulled up YLF before seeing this thread, a window had popped up which asked in neutral terms whether we'd like to see and spend time thinking about such a topic, how many people would really have checked "YES, today let me read something personally offensive and then YES, I would like to spend time and energy composing a gracious answer that presumes good faith, all while feeling upset by the various levels of prejudice and microaggression. YES, I volunteer for that!"

And how many members have read the post, then spent time writing and deleting, and then ended up posting nothing at all, all the while feeling upset and alienated from the purpose of participation in this forum, which is to have fun with fashion?

Yes, asking for help in education is possible and good. But there are ways of phrasing it that reap truly voluntary contributions, without causing so much pain and triggering reminders of daily heartache. It's even possible to ask for help in how to ask for help educating oneself. There have been many beautiful, generous contributions to this discussion by those who live this "Plus-Size Mentality" (sure, we're a monolith!) reality daily, but at what price?

I've been a very wide range of sizes, for reasons and circumstances I shouldn't have to explain to anyone. For most of my previous career, there was someone to help with practical aspects of dress-code compliance, but for casual wear I was on my own. That's when I first found YLF blog, prior to the forum IIRC. At the time, it didn't feel accessible even though I was technically a mainstream size and money wasn't an obstacle. When I finally joined, it was because I had fewer flying figs to give about accessibility and didn't care what people here thought about my fashion ambition being limited to an attractive loungewear capsule.

Several dear friends are sewists because of their size. The amount of privilege (time, innate talent, perseverance, space, sourcing access, instructor compatibility, and on and on) that THAT solution requires makes it akin to suggesting that if my local bus commute is difficult, I just buy an old Boxster and fix it up and drive that instead.

Minimalist, you've made many points very well that have rattled around in my brain during this whole discussion. Thank you.

For a number of reasons, most not even remotely fashion-related, lately I have been much more aware of my level of privilege, in many aspects of life. I think this discussion, difficult as it may be for many, may help people to understand and empathize more. No, finding attractive clothes to wear is not the most pressing issue in life, but it is a concern for many, and the reasons are a hint of many deeper problems in our society.

I have responded on this thread previously, and mentioned that I'm not one to complain about certain designs/lines/stores not supporting the size that would fit ME... I've become adept at setting my sights elsewhere to find clothing that suits me, without spending energy on the deficit. HOWEVER! I was writing about my current situation (bubble) where I am dressing "free range"---with little constraints on what I want to wear. I do not have to conform to any dress code other than my own. What Chewy described is VERY OFFENSIVE to me. A workplace, particularly one that employs 4000 people should have a broad range of sizes to fit ALL of their employees. Yes, ALL of them. And, if an employee falls out of the range of readily available clothing, then it seems to me that the company has a legal responsibility to provide an acceptable accommodation. I'm furious thinking about it---and I think it's the sexism which offends me most---they offer mens clothing to women, tell me, do they offer womens uniforms to men who are on the smaller end of the size spectrum? If you'll excuse my pun: "Fat Chance!" I seriously doubt it.

Minimalist, that was an incredibly well-written comment that captured my own feelings better than I could have. Thank you. I'm certainly in the category of people who've written and deleted and rewritten and ultimately not posted a reply to this, despite being privileged that this isn't a struggle I have to fight daily for myself.

"To me, it seems like the women take their large size as a given and want the other party to change their behavior (make larger clothes). This is rather unproductive. Wouldn't it be more productive to change one's own behavior and figure out what made the woman fat to start with offending food or habit can be eliminated? (Please also see edit at the end of this post.). ... I'm not saying this is easy, but it it doable."

Minimalist, *my first (deleted) response was "bite me." I found the original post to be incredibly condescending and offensive. You don't *know if "it it [sic] doable." I don't need to give you my personal history but if you'd had some of the health issues I've had you might not be so mouthy about how easy it is to simply change one's body.

As you can see from my photos, I'm a plus-size. I haven't always been, and I hope that one day I won't be, again, but I'll be darned if I'm going to dress in uncomfortable, ugly, unfashionable crap in the meantime. I've had good luck recently with Old Navy's Pixie pants, JJill for tops and pencil skirts, and LL Bean for some perfectly attractive sweaters and jackets. I'm glad those companies haven't seen it too much of an imposition to create clothes that fit my short size 16 body.

This is a forum where cross-dressers get serious fashion advice and you-go-girls and yet whether plus-size women are responsible for their own failings is fair game?

Many thanks to Ledonna, Mimimalist, Suz and others for introducing the larger issue of privilege in this context. Looking around me, and listening to the news, I feel that this very real, but rarely acknowledged, refusal to imagine the lives of others is a kind of secret epidemic threatening our society. Empathy, which makes real community and so many kinds of progress possible, begins with imagination.

tulle, your post brought me to tears. It's so so true. I guess that is why I write. To teach myself empathy.

This is why I love YLF and the generous and eloquent members!
In Australia we have even less size choice, and I hate it when my daughters are made to feel "less than" for not being able to find clothing off the rack that fits.
I am going to work harder to reinforce that they are perfect just the way they are in the future!

Brilliantly expressed, minimalist. Honest and thought-provoking.

Minimalist -- Thank you so much for putting into words (so eloquently, politely and completely) what I have been feeling and wanting to say since this thread was first posted. This especially hit home for me: "Asking for help in education is possible and good. But there are ways of phrasing it that reap truly voluntary contributions, without causing so much pain and triggering reminders of daily heartache. It's even possible to ask for help in how to ask for help educating oneself. There have been many beautiful, generous contributions to this discussion by those who live this "Plus-Size Mentality" (sure, we're a monolith!) reality daily, but at what price?

I have been feeling very triggered by much of the discussion on this thread as it has (sadly) reinforced the deep feelings I have that my body as it is (and always has been) is flawed and not OK. The mere topic of a "Plus-size Mentality" makes me feel "othered" and forces me yet again to explain, defend and legitimize a big piece of who I am. I am a large woman in a world where "largeness" is not accepted (especially in women) or is (worse yet) pathologized. Many of us who grew up taller and/or larger than our peers were victims of continuous bullying and scapegoating... some of it pretty severe. This "bullying" for us sadly continues beyond the playground and into our adult lives, most of it in the form of microaggressions. It happens in our places of work, in our social interactions, in online communities, in the places where we shop... almost everywhere we turn. It is nearly unavoidable and is, for some of us, a "daily heartache". I sincerely thank you for acknowledging and validating this, our daily experience, in your recent response. And a huge hug and thanks to all the other brave YLF forum ladies who have continued to speak out on this issue, even though it has been difficult and likely very painful and triggering.