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Question about plus-size mentality

Alexandra

(website)

Veteran

I would like to ask a question here that may not come out right and may upset some people. Also, I'm not being flippant. Here goes:

From the many conversations here on YLF and post and comments on various blogs, I've gathered that plus-sized women want clothing manufacturers to make fashionable clothes in larger sizes. There seems to be a lot of anger and frustration involved. Frustration with the situation and anger at the manufacturers. To me, it seems like the women take their large size as a given and want the other party to change their behavior (make larger clothes). This is rather unproductive. Wouldn't it be more productive to change one's own behavior and figure out what made the woman fat to start with offending food or habit can be eliminated? (Please also see edit at the end of this post.)

I'm not saying this is easy, but it it doable. It takes an elimination diet to figure it out so there's a bit of work involved. It's not always the number of calories, sometimes (maybe often) it's the food. For example, wheat and wheat products for me. After a fasting day, I would normally see a 1/2 lb. drop on the scale the next day (baseline test). But if I eat a small piece of wheat bread or a bit of wheat pasta on an otherwise fasting day, the scale shows 1 to 1.5 lb gain the next day and it takes four to five days for it to go away fully. It also adds a 1/2" to my waist measurement for that length of time. (I did this several times just to confirm it wasn't a fluke, but after that I eliminated wheat from my diet). It may be the same way for others or it may be other foods that trigger this type of response in the body.

Anyway, this is not about judging or blaming or body-shaming. I'm wondering what it is that makes people expend energy on unproductive behaviors (trying to get the other party to change) instead of productive behaviors (changing self). Is it psychological? Societal? Multi-faceted? Is there a solution? (And should there be one?)

ETA: Yikes, this seems to be heading in the wrong direction, just as I feared. I didn't mean to imply plus-sized women should diet to lose weight. I used it as an example of changing one's own behavior. Other examples would be learning to sew own clothes or hiring a dressmaker to create what's missing in the marketplace. (I'm not sure I'm making this any better.)

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158 replies

Latest reply was from Angie

Sisi

Veteran

Alexandra, I am not plus-sized but since when I gained some weight I learnt how difficult it is to lose it. Some people see results immediately after changing their eating habits, and some others have to wait forever before seeing a little result. This is frustrating. Then there are people (like me) who are not able to follow a diet (I have not enough will and I am ok with that and, well, I am Italian ...). Also take into consideration that an excess of weight is not always caused by food. Medications, stress, traumas can be the cause. I have not an answer to your question and I am curious to see what other Fabbers say.

Nadya

Veteran

Successful long term weight loss is very rare. This article
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/222S.long
suggests that 20% of people who lose 10% of their weight keep it off for a year. I've seen studies with with even less encouraging results.

If i were on the happy side of that study and lost 10% of my weight I'd still be plus sized. And I would still need clothes.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Alexandra, there are a lot of reasons why people gain or retain weight. And no matter what size someone is or where they may or may not be in any efforts to lose weight, they deserve to be able to find beautiful clothes to wear.

ETA: As someone who has never been technically "overweight" but is going through menopause, I will attest that weight can be a tricky thing, and what works for one person does not necessarily work for another.

Nadya

Veteran

And just one more thought - it's not always unproductive to seek to change others behavior. E.g. the various civil rights movement have had some (thought of course not complete) success. We no longer in the US advertise jobs based on gender, as in "Help Wanted, Female," for a very simple example.

Kaelyn

Veteran

For me, it boils down to people having a right to feel good, and a right to have clothing they like. We must wear clothes every day, and I think that what we wear can have a huge impact on our mentality as we go about our daily lives, so everyone ought to have the opportunity to purchase clothes that make them feel positively.

I'd also like to point out that NOT all plus size women are fat. I'm plus size at 245 pounds (the heaviest I've ever been) and at 180 pounds (the lightest I remember being, when I was a teenager). I'm 5'8", large busted, large framed, I have broad shoulders, and I take up a lot of space no matter what. So yes, I am quite emotional about this issue, because if I do lose all my excess weight (I've been losing 1-2 pounds per week for the last couple months), I'll still probably be a size 12-14 in pants and an XL to 1X in tops just because of the size and proportions of my body.

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

This is so offensive on so many levels that I don't even know where to start....
First let's talk about a retail environment which caters only to one body type- skinny. Depending on where you shop, you can be sized out at an 8, 10, or 12.....none of which are actually plus sizes. (Or unhealthy sizes).
It seems that your assumption here is that plus sized women were once average sized women who then "let themselves go". I used to think that our bodies were all the same, and if that large woman just lost weight that she would look like a skinny woman, but that's not the case. I lost 70 pounds at one point in my life- over a long period of time (2 1/2 years) and through diet and exercise. It wasn't a healthy weight for me. Even with a very restricted diet I could not maintain it, and I caused myself permanent injury with working out so much. But even at my smallest, I was sized out or at the very top end of many retailers, and too curvy for many more. I realized that I was not a skinny girl trapped in a fat body, but that I have much more muscle mass and I hold my fat in a different pattern in addition to have a larger bone structure.
Now let's talk about the fact that fat people are still people, and deserve to find comfortable, well-fitting , attractive and fun clothing. Even if every fat person decided today to loose a serious amount of weight, that process would take years for most to do it in a healthy manner. In the meantime, they still would need to get dressed every day.
Fat people shouldn't be treated any different than skinny people - and that includes a choice in clothing.

Joyce B

Veteran

I don't think anyone wants to make the industry change in order to make their size the standard. What is happening is that the fashion industry caters mostly to smaller sizes when the reality is that most women do not wear smaller sizes.
Some things are easier said than done, like losing weight. I don't think the issue is about people's weight but about the fashion industry realizing that there is a large market (and potential income for them) that they are mostly ignoring.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Alexandra, there are many, many reasons for weight gain. The causes are extremely complicated and often highly emotional. I'm sure you will find the comments on this thread insightful.

Despite the efforts of a person to lose weight, they have the right to look stylish and enjoy fashion at any size. The way I see it, it's the responsibility of the fashion world to clothe every size and body type stylishly. And there in lies the problem. The retail industry focuses its fashion on regular height hourglass women falling between a size 2 and 8. There is reason to call the focus unjust, although the most bought sizes in the US are 6 to 10. (There is an economic argument for the retailer's focus - from the retailer's perspective).

The industry is trying to change its size discrimination strategy. The fact that all sorts of sizes are available online is a LOT better than it used to be despite the complaints. Slowly but surely, we will see things improve.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Oh man. Alexandra, you are going to get eaten alive in this thread. Several thoughts: I know you mean well, but I just don't believe what you say is true. Not everybody can lose weight. Some can (like you), when there is a reason for the weight gain (in your case, a sensitivity to wheat), but some can't. Or they do, but they can't keep up the huge effort it takes to keep their weight down. So they gain it back. Or they just don't have the resources to put into monitoring their weight, because they're single mothers who are just trying to get food on the table and they frankly don't have time for a lot of navel-gazing. They deserve decent clothing in their size, too.

Look at pictures from a hundred years ago. Some working class people, who can't possibly have had an overabundance of food (and certainly no greasy fast food) are still plump. It's true that more people are heavy now than in the past, because we eat fewer raw foods and we have mechanized transport, but still. There has always been a range of body shapes.

There are also value judgments hidden in your post. I don't think you meant it this way, since you wrote in such a gentle and reasonable way, but by saying, "why don't all women just put in the work to experiment and find out why they are fat", you are effectively saying that being fat is somehow shameful. It's true that our culture privileges thinness, but I know a few women who are plumper than they probably could be and they are fine with it. I have one friend in particular who is what you might call "voluptuous" -- i.e. she's full-figured, but it suits her and she is very attractive -- who flat-out says she's heavy because she likes to eat a lot. She's not planning on changing her habits. But she deserves clothes that fit!

Suz

(website)

Veteran

The overall question of why we try to change others rather than ourselves -- that is a biggie, and not one I think we'll find an answer to on this forum! Mr. Suz and I were just talking about this today (in relation to a behaviour of our daughter's that we are frustrated about.) And she was just talking about this herself last night in relation to a friend. We all do this. So it must be a very human response -- perhaps it precedes any real change, is a phase in that change, is an indication that we have recognized a problem?

As for changing one's size rather than wishing manufacturers would make larger clothing -- rather than losing weight, I thought you were going to suggest learning to sew and design! This, to me, while also a lot of work and probably not possible for all, would be a much more satisfying way to go!

Either that or take lessons from a few of our super-stylish plus-sized Fabbers, who show us every day that style isn't a size. And who manage to dress brilliantly even on a budget.

I'm not plus size. But I am a person who lost a significant amount of weight in the peri-menopause/ menopause years. I've also worked for a fitness company that runs a weight loss program.

My experience tells me this: Yes, losing weight can be a goal and is do-able for some. But it's not necessary for all -- and it's not necessarily "do-able" for all, either. There are many, many factors that can make it more difficult for some people to take weight off and keep it off. Sisi alluded to a few.

There's a tremendous natural variation in size and shape; some women are plus sized simply by virtue of their frame. Or sized out the other way. I remember shopping in Germany as a young woman -- I could not find any clothing small enough for me (because I'm short and slight). Meanwhile, I'm sure I would have been close to plus-size in Japan at that time. No way that dieting would have helped me fit into the clothes -- nor gaining weight in Germany for that matter! It just wouldn't work. As others have said.

And why should larger women want to change in the first place? What's wrong with being larger?

Also, I think there is a difference between trying to change others in our personal lives (something that rarely works and usually backfires) and advocating for social changes. Women who are asking manufacturers to make clothing in sizes that work for them are looking for a social change. A social change requires a social conversation and a social answer.

And, bottom line, everyone deserves to look great, whatever her size or shape!

Ledonna N.

Veteran

I read this and I don't mean this as an attack but I was also offended on several levels I will take the time to form a proper response as the work day allows.

The short answer is we as plus size women and now me as a plus size pregnant mom to be want beautiful clothing to wear. We deserve it. It's not asking for the moon it is asking to be treated equally as a woman. I think all women can relate to that. I will have a better response later.

em

Several thoughts, all very complicated.

First, being "plus sized" doesn't necessarily mean overweight. So that group can be removed from your question.

Second, there are many many reasons why a person cannot lose excess weight (which may or may not translate to inches.) Our society does not facilitate healthy living. A combination of our urban design practices that impedes daily walking, food prices that favor processed food over fresh, and many other things contribute to an overall poor health.

Anonymous

I agree that it's easier to change your own behavior than to change that of others, but many factors other than behavior factor into one's weight and physiology (genetics and environment, for example). Some of the most stylish women I know are what society would term "plus-sized," but they do have to work extra hard to achieve the look they want, whether with custom clothing, tailoring, or just unflagging determination in shopping. Looking good in your clothes should be something that's reasonably attainable for all bodies, not just the 6-10. (I'm an 8, for the record, but have witnessed the struggles of many plus-sized friends who struggle with getting clothes that fit well.) I do think there are more options now than there were in the past, but it could definitely be better.

I don't think you meant to offend anyone, but this is such a sensitive issue that it's hard to talk about it without stepping on some toes!

LaPed

Veteran

This is a very difficult conversation for many people, and I'm glad YLF is a safe enough place to have it.

One thing to remember: women have always been *expected* to alter themselves in order to conform to social norms. Corsets, foot binding, bras, cosmetics, heels, diet products, spanx, implants, botox. Can the same be said of men? Not to anywhere near the same degree. Any woman, of any size or shape, who is willing to stand up and reject the demand that she accommodate others' expectations is acting with great courage and makes the world a better place for all of us. Industry -- any industry -- ought to be accommodating people; people should not have to accommodate industry. But it seems both people and industries need continual reminding.

Ledonna N.

Veteran

Many reasons given have been great at explaining.

Personally I maintained my weight below the national tape standard for body fat for 10 years during my service in the United States Army. From that ages 18 to 28 every day I ran 4 -6 miles sit ups and push ups plus various types of exercises plus evening in the gym. Having shredded to Body building standards still being classified as overweight standing at 5'2 I cannot tell you how shamming it is to get weighed and taped every 6 months because you cannot meat a criteria that was established in the 1960's for white women not taking persons of color with curves into account.

Next women on this blog and other forums range in social and economic standards what might be right for you may not be right for someone else. I work mostly 12 hrs a day I walk crawl climb and work with only men. Mostly my whole adult life and career. Currently I am maintaining a 2 1/2 to 3 hr commute each way to my job site. Because men have no empathy with pregnant women which I am learning the harsh way.

So when does that leave time to exercise? While at work to tired on the weekend or after work I have a home gym full of equipment. I use it but it is physically exhausting after a full day now with little nugget on the way. I cannot see myself doing more that what I'm already doing.

I am paid very well most people don't have the luxury to buy from an artist who can make clothing. I have that luxury and I am blessed. I shop all over for what I like. I am also saving for now a college fund for my little one and also my retirement. I will shop economical where and when I can. Do you know how much child care can cost? Almost 300 a week. I am blessed to have a significant other that can sew anything for me. Others are not so fortunate.

I read your edit. I am sure many are not offended but most do not have the time or inclination to learn to sew. I am one of those. I try to eat healthy that is expensive. Many people I know live in food deserts. Where they have no transportation to healthy produce. It is a sad state of affairs but it is what it is. Next if people can get to healthy food then there is the price of affordability. Then the prep time to cook it.

Next If you have ever been to a plus size section in can be on the highest floor way in the back still and cost almost 20-50 % of what a regular size can cost. Manufactures should supply because we plus size are the highest spending group besides people of color.

I have been an underweight size 6 and a healthy size 18 standing at 5'2. Yes there are frustration and yes there are joys. Like any group. I have learned that tailors, seamstress work best for me. I have learned that I don't like to shop online I have learned that some stores I will not go into yes the Famous Nordrstroms because they do not cater to my size. Am I mad or frustrated no because I have learned to navigate and love what works for me. I don't have time to be frustrated or angry because I have bigger things to concern myself with.

I would rather be plus and happy and HEALTHY than under weight worrying about body dismorphic images. Many young girls suffer from that now. It is truly sad. Just like any other group that is discriminated against I can see all sides. I have been the ONLY most of the places I have worked or lived. I don't wallow in sadness or anger. That is place I choose not to live. But I can understand the frustration. I am a woman, a person of color who served with only men. Do you Feel Me now?

I think most of all people want be heard understood and empathized with active change. Is this not fair to want? I think that it is withing reason to demand that this happen. At the vary least don't assume that everything is your way just because you have tried it.

Again I do not mean this as an attack. I am just stating my truth and part of my journey.

Empathy is what is severely lacking in this world and what we need the most. We can only do that by asking the though questions and really listing with an open heart and mind. You never know what a person is dealing with until you have walked a mile in their shoes.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Alexandra, I think the issue is the one I, Nadya, Angie, and others mentioned.

There's a difference between trying to change others in our personal lives and advocating for a social shift. It's not unproductive to advocate for social change.

An example of the former: Let's say I'm a night owl and DH is an early bird. Let's say I knew he was a morning person when I married him. It is unfair to expect him to change his stripes. So what are my options? I can complain (probably not productive). I can ask him to try to change his body rhythms so we can stay up and watch a late show. (Maybe slightly more productive, but probably not a long term solution.) Or I can change my own attitude towards it and find ways to adapt -- which in this case is probably the most effective option and the one most likely to lead to happiness for both parties.

This is completely different, however, from wanting a shift in social attitudes and everything that flows from them.

Ledonna and others have eloquently expressed how it feels to be shamed for body size and shape. I would much rather live in a world where women aren't made to feel that way. We women have internalized so much self-hatred as a result of ridiculous external standards of all kinds. To advocate for changing those standards is not foolish or "unproductive" (in my opinion).

As a matter of fact, it's probably much more unproductive for me to try to change my own body size and shape! Oh, sure, I can lose a few pounds. I am privileged by good genes, enough income, some time to devote to that, etc. But lucky as I am, even I cannot change the length of my legs, the size of my breasts, the shape of my heels, the width of my shoulders, etc. Is it foolish for me to want manufacturers to offer shoes that stay on, pants that can at least be altered in length, jackets that don't pinch, pretty bras, etc.? Expecting a perfect fit is probably too much, given human variation. But hoping for options seems reasonable. And that is true whether I'm a size 2 or 22.

El Cee

Veteran

Alexandra -- Have you ever considered that some women that wear above a size 12 are not "fat" or "overweight" at all? I am 6 feet tall. The smallest size that I have ever been in my adult life was a size 14... and that is when I weighed 140 pounds. If you check the BMI chart, you will see that is smack in the middle of the healthy weight range for a woman of my height. Yet... I was still a size 14 due to my broad shoulders, large bust and wide hip structure. This is just how I am built.

Sadly, for many of us tall and large framed women, we have always had to live with a huge amount of body shaming and sizeism. To me it seems that we live in a nation that sees femininity and healthiness as related to how "small" we women are or can be. Anything outside of this standard is rejected. Imagine how that feels for those of us who are outside the "norms" set by the fashion industry -- not because of "overeating" or for lack of attention to healthy habits, but because of how we are genetically created. For many of us, it has led to unbearable shame and sometimes (sadly) to eating disorders.

In my 59 years on this planet, I have learned to be very creative with my accessories to compensate for the fact that the fashion world has NEVER properly addressed my personal needs. I have "made do" without a whole lot of complaint. Yet... It would be really wonderful to have the options you have due to your smaller height and build... and to have my dollars matter as much to the fashion industry as yours do. "Nuff said.

One additional point -- I have a size 12 foot... and a heck of a time finding shoes. This is another area where the fashion industry actively discriminates against larger, taller women. No diet or healthy eating plan is ever going to shrink my feet.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Ledonna, you give an excellent anecdotal account of one of the things I was trying to point out: fat is not only a feminist issue; it's a class issue, too. (I also like what you said about having empathy. The world can always use more of that!).

I think there are a few things that have become true in the past 50 years:

1. Highly-processed food that's bad for you is often cheap. Whole foods, especially if produced/raised/grown ethically and with the environment in mind, are usually not. Good food is frustratingly unaffordable for many.

2. Some whole foods ARE cheap (like dried beans), but they require more time to prepare. It's been said before, but time is the only non-renewable resource. We're all working long days. Fitting in exercise and meal planning is difficult, even for me and most of the people in my (admittedly) privileged social circle. It's nearly impossible for many. Imagine you're one of the millions of women working two jobs just to make ends meet. How much time can you devote to scrutinizing your diet? (This is the kind of white-upper-class-goggled thinking that got Gwyneth Paltrow into trouble).

3. Learn to sew? Lol. Nope. It's a hobby for some, but it's time-consuming and personally I can't imagine anything less fun. I'm not spending my precious spare time making my own clothes. Plus-sized women who can't afford a tailor (and possibly have even less spare time than I do) should not be required to learn to sew just so they can get stylish clothes in their size.

4. Hire a dressmaker? Sure, that'll work, but again, costly. Out of reach for many.

em

I just want to say...to offer the statement...that I am roughly a size 4 to 6 but NOTHING every fits properly without alterations. So it is not necessarily "easier." Thank goodness for Nordies who has an outstanding alterations department. I have, on occasion, bought clothes for the materials alone and have had the alterations department completely remake the garment.

Aziraphale

Veteran

That's true, em, I have the same issue -- I'm short and slim and my body proportions often require a bit of garment tweaking after purchase! But I think I do have it easier, because at least I have options. The problem here is that there are so many women who are completely sized out, whereas I can always buy something that's too big and have it tailored down.

kkards

Veteran

I'm going to take this from a different point of view and step away from the size thing.....I work in an industry that has traditionally catered to men and boys. and so, as it has expanded to women, the general belief is that all you need to do is "shrink it and pink it":....yes you heard that right all women and girls need is for them to take merchandise made for men/boys and make it smaller and in pink. now does that sound right to you? is it wrong for women and girls to try to change this mentality or should they try to change their own behavior of expecting better?

UmmLila (Lisa)

Veteran

Not every culture values thin as an aesthetic for body types. In Mauritania for example, it goes the opposite way, and is also not good for females who are against type <http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/.....orce.feed/>

Certainly, everyone should strive to be healthy --for health's sake. Body modification to achieve a look like the dominant cultural aesthetic is a different matter.

I believe it is more frustrating for non standard size consumers when they know that they have money, and are willing to spend and yet the products aren't there. That's unusual from an economic perspective; usually businesses that are run well are all about creating a supply to meet demand, in order to achieve profits. Are these clothing businesses intentionally body-shaming people? I don't know about that -- it seems not in their economic interest.

One may say it is that fashion businesses are slavishly following the cultural aesthetic because they believe their companies to be all about aesthetics, and damn the financial consequences.

Or, they may think that being known as a provider of non standard size clothing will cut into their existing market of standard size consumers -- that is, they are making a prediction that their customers do not want to be associated with garments in a larger size range. Proper market research could probably answer that question.

The businesses in the best position to take advantage of the situation are those, like Modcloth, that already know their customers and do business in a way that attracts them (e.g. selling a wide range of sizes, or not having "plus size" sections).

em

True, Aziraphale; I recall once on Oprah she asked her wardrobe people why the costs seemed to have doubled and she was informed that she had put on so much weight the dresser had to buy TWO size 16s and remake them into one garment.

KKards, I don't wear pink, so that wouldn't work for me.

Jen W

I think the tone of your post is highly offensive, and since I don't think it is intentional, I'll respond.

"I'm wondering what it is that makes people expend energy on unproductive behaviors (trying to get the other party to change) instead of productive behaviors (changing self). Is it psychological? Societal? Multi-faceted? Is there a solution? (And should there be one?)"

This line of questioning is incredibly judgmental, and applied to any other inequity would be perceived as prejudiced and privileged. It implies that not only are women wrong for being large, but there is some psychological or societal flaw to blame for wanting clothing that expresses one's creativity or makes one feel beautiful. There are many nuances that can effect a woman's size, some within one's control, and many outside of one's control. YLF is a good place to come vent and gather support, and then try to come up with strategies. But skipping ahead to problem solving, without first coming to terms with feelings and being heard and witnessed, leaves out the most important part of the journey towards owning and celebrating our identities in my opinion.

Gaylene

Veteran

Actually, I think it's important to have raised this question on a fashion forum because I'm sure there are many others who have the same thoughts but don't dare to express them. The responses are a good way of reminding all of us "solutions" which work well for some are never universal. Situations, experiences--and, yes, bodies--are complicated things.

For me, the key issue, though, boils down to what we see as productive and unproductive behaviour in this situation. I'd argue that changing one's body to fit prevailing cultural fashion norms is actually the least productive response. Body modification demands time, energy, and dedication to a cause, but only I benefit. Challenging the status quo, on the other hand, makes similar demands, but the benefits can extend to thousands.

ETA: On a personal note, Alexandra, I just wanted to add I think the question you've posed is an important one which all too often lingers in the shadows. Body size is a sensitive topic as we can see by the responses, and I appreciate how careful you were in raising the issue. I'm also proud to be a member of a forum where we discuss important topics like this with passion and conviction, but always with civility. That, to me, is how we develop empathy and understanding. Thanks everyone!

em

Jen W, I got the impression that the question about changing one's behaviors was referring to the behavior of losing weight, not wanting to look beautiful. And to be fair, there are plenty of people who complain constantly about stores not catering to people of their size, while they go out to lunch and eat sausage links, a milkshake, and a large fry. Whether or not stores carry clothes to fit them would be, I imagine, a business decision.

And whether or not society should judge people who behave destructively as illustrated above, well, that is itself hugely complicated. Cities have banned large-sized soda containers, smoking in public places, and a myriad of other things.

El Cee

Veteran

Em -- Kindly see my longer response -- above. Not everyone above a size 12 is overweight or overeating. Please understand that this is the kind of attitude that contributes to a lot of eating disorders.

em

El CeeKindly see MY first post above which reads in part:

First, being "plus sized" doesn't necessarily mean overweight. So that group can be removed from your question.
Second, there are many many reasons why a person cannot lose excess weight (which may or may not translate to inches.)

Suz

(website)

Veteran

What Gaylene said.

I also really like Jen's point that this is the type of place where we can vent about these issues safely before going on to problem solve, whether that be by writing to manufacturers, patronizing the ones whose clothes fit us, demonstrating, learning to sew, watching our diet, or some combination of the above.

Just as in our personal lives, "complaining" may seem unproductive, and probably is unproductive if it ends there, but it can also become the first step towards changing a situation that needs changing.

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