So many great voices on this post.

That is why I cannot call YLF a " fashion blog"

I sadly feel your pain. I met my ophthalmologist wheh my illnesses were full bloom and yet untreated and I was heavier, puffy, felt horrible from what turned out to be my kidneys, skin, thyroid, eyes, salivary glands and joints under attack from my immune system. I haven't slept 3 hrs straight in a decade.
But when I lost some weight (which literally required cutting out grains, sugar, dairy, red meat, beans, nightshades and as much excercise as I could muster) , my eyes were drenched for moisture and less swollen and bloodshot ... i saw her again. After knowing her a year and her 'professional' greeting, was ... 'pretty, pretty, pretty, I didn't recognize you in the lobby' and by words, tone, treatment ... it was clear I was suddenly more worthy.
I have since been on tons of prednisone and had my estrogen surge and progesterone drop out of low range etc and gained some back and I see how people perceive it.
I was called fat in 6th grade for being 5' 3" and weighing 135. Referred to as an Elephant, in fact.
I have aMother and Partner who get treated ( despite eating unhealthy for one and more than me, for the other) as if they are healthy by default due to being skinny.
It's all definitely painful and being chastised and put on diets from age 8 on for size and as an adult ranging from 12-16 but being treated like an outsider or suggested to that I am only pretty 'if' or if i'd just ... is something i've always tried not to let demoralize me. Posing things the way this thread was, don't help ... particularly from someone in the healthcare field where empathy and an understanding of physiology should play a role.

I find it mind-boggling that the OP thinks that she knows the bodies of those she deems overweight better than they do. After all, the OP has gained and lost as much as HALF AN INCH and upward of a WHOLE POUND based on diet alone. News flash: this happens to everyone, and it can sometimes be based on food, sometimes based on liquid intake (alcohol or not enough water), sometimes based on hormonal fluctuations and sometimes based on nothing at all. To presume that an elimination diet would solve the problems you have with other women's bodies is entitled and arrogant and judgmental in the extreme.

I am not a plus size, but I can plainly see that many women are overweight due to lifestyle. And before you jump to explain that you think the same thing, let me explain the "lifestyle" I mean. Many women work two jobs or more. One job cannot pay the rent and put food on the table. Even with assistance, many of the working poor can barely make it until the next paycheck and depend on free school breakfast and lunch to keep their children fed. When they are able to find time to shop for food, they have nowhere local to do it because they live in a food desert with no fresh produce or healthy options available. With their precious little free time, they are not about to chart and plan an elimination diet, even if they could afford to eat in the way those diets demanded. They are going to rest and spend that time with their children, who are growing up too fast, too often without mum there to see it happen. The idea of exercise when they are exhausted to the bone by their daily life is preposterous, even if they had the privilege to be able to attend a swanky fitness club.

I work in education and I see these families every. single. day. To see a second grade boy angry and lashing out because his feet hurt because his parents cannot afford new shoes is heart-wrenching. To hear a child say that he ate all he could at a class holiday party because there will be no feast at their house is horrifying. To see a girl glowing because her teacher allowed her to borrow one of the dress-up outfits to wear for Halloween is sad and beautiful at the same time. I've met their parents, and many of them are the very sort of people you judge. They don't overeat at the expense of their children; indeed, they do everything for their children. But all they can afford is subsidized food and things like boxed macaroni and cheese.

I would LOVE for you to be able to sit down with these people and explain to them that if they only made better choices it would be easier to find sizes that fit at the local Goodwill. I'm sure they'd be all ears.

Echo you have so eloquently describe so many lives. My sister is an educator and has described these very situations herself.

Many here have eloquently and openly detailed their healthy lifestyles while still maintaining a plus size figure, yet one comment about women drinking milkshakes and fast food is sitting in my craw. I think, for me as a plus sized lady, that type of comment is exactly the sort of thing that reminds me how judged we are. It also points to one of my biggest pains and frustrations with weight. Personally, if I compulsively measure, weigh and restrict my food and make exercise my top life priority, I can get down to a 12/14, If I don't exercise and I eat what I like, when I like, I'm a 16/18. The recognition that no matter what I do, I'm doomed to be sized out of many fashion lines, and worse, to be assumed to be a milkshake chugging, burger loving glutton, sometimes makes it seem pointless to even bother with the commitment to health. So, you'll have to forgive me if I occasionally have dessert.

Alexandra, you are right that you don't see many of us here bemoaning our double digit bodies, day in and day out. That is because we are all fighting the impulse society is pressing on us to hate our bodies and embracing Angie's edict to dress the body we have now. Yes, there are a handful of proud, plus sized women who wouldn't change their bodies for anything, but there are many more of us who have literally tortured ourselves for most of our lives because we believed the messages, like yours, that we could be thin if we would just...

Alexandra, I haven't seen you back on this thread for a few days. I know you're around from your comments on other threads, so I assume you have been checking in on your own thread. I'm curious: Do you feel you have learned anything from the comments here? I'm not talking about an answer to your original "question." I'm talking about bursting out of your "bubble" and understanding the perspectives of those of us who are different from you.

ETA: I may take all my thoughts on this into off topic. I'm still trying to decide on my YLF role and whether it's best for me to opt out in general. Too much gets me too upset these days.

I've opted out otherwise I will respond to a statement here that infuriates me.

I would rather talk about food deserts and walkable communities....

Wow ! Just wow !

I have read thru this twice. What great heartfelt sentiments...

We are all different- mainly it is just who your grandfather was and other things we have little or no control over.

However, there is another side to this as well and I have to say that I truly feel sorry for the fashion industry.

As someone who sews, you can only imagine the difficulty.

Imagine, you have a fab design for a short tailored jacket... NOW make it is sizes to accommodate petites to plus sized, now make it for women with a bust and without, now for someone with beautiful broad shoulders, now for an apple shape, now for a straight rectangle, now for a short waist... Oh my! Is it possible ? WHO do you design for ?

Also, the cost of manufacture ! Looking at any pattern you can see the difference in material costs- going from a Size 6 to a 14 - sometimes the amount of material is DOUBLE. Yes DOUBLE - depending on the width of the fabric etc.. It costs twice as much to make it. Yet the industry does not typically charge double- this would be unacceptable. Completely unacceptable.

See yourself at the rack of jackets, Size 2 is $ 35, Size 4 is $ 42, Size 6 is $ 56 , Size 8 is $ 68 ... Simply no good. The cost is of manufacture is averaged out over the size range produced.

SO....... they substitute cheaper fabrics, thinner, fabrics that do not look good, and cling in every wrong place... so that the cost does not hit them so directly. They still get the customer... but it is a poor compromise. Their customer is not happy. What to do ?

I do not know the answer... but the industry has an challenge. A big one.

This has been a very interesting read. I'm not as eloquent as most of you but I want to mention one important fact that some others have touched on too: Losing weight is not as easy as simply cutting out wheat and/or experimenting with an elimination diet. Genetics play a huge part in this too. I think we can all agree that some women are born with a natural predisposition to being thin and others are born with a natural predisposition to being larger. Yes you can challenge genetics with diets but at the end of the day, there's still only so much one can do. Why is it that some women struggle to put on weight while others gain weight easily? Thus we should have clothing to fit the large spectrum of shapes and sizes.

This is all very interesting to me and I am learning a lot. I know this discussion is about bodies and clothes but I wonder have any of you experienced discrimination and judgement based on how pretty your face looks? This was a common theme when I was growing up in India. People were much more tolerant of weight as long as you were pretty.

Yes elpgal. I feel this at every interview I have for a job- even though appearance shouldn't matter. I had a job at a trendy clothing store in high school, and when I brought in my application the assistant manager gathered the staff around and asked them if they thought I was pretty enough to work there. (Not in front of me, but one of the salesgirls told me afterward).

What an extraordinary thread. I've been following closely since the outset, unsure whether I have anything constructive to add, but...

Sheila, I fully understand the point you're trying to make, but the fashion industry is very much at fault here and deserves no sympathy whatsoever.

There is some truth in your remark that designing for different body shapes requires different skills and knowledge, and grading up isn't going to work a lot of the time. But what you say about needing "double the material" is incorrect. It can be true for the home dressmaker, but it sure as eggs isn't for an industrial process. When it comes to wastage at that level, size has nothing to do with it.

I think it's incredibly important that designers truly understand the people they are designing for and cater for their practical needs as well as their natural desire to look their best. Western fashion is very bad at doing that for any of us, regardless of our size or body shape. Instead, it supplies us with an endless stream of unattainable images and empty promises and then shames us for not measuring up to them.

Designers can address these kinds of issues, but only through active engagement with their client base. This can only happen if people are empowered enough to join in that conversation. I remember when Beth Ditto did a range of clothes, she was very specific about certain aspects of fit that only someone of her body shape would fully understand. As someone who designs as well as makes clothes, without that input I know I would struggle to meet her needs because I don't know them as well as she does.

It doesn't happen when the overriding discourse is that we constantly have to change ourselves to fit some arbitrary beauty standard, which almost none of us have any hope of ever achieving. So I say we should keep on lobbying. It's fashion that needs to change, not us, but it will only change if we change the conversation.

So... I will point out that at the beginning, Alexandra talked about seeing weight as an indicator of underlying medical issues. And many, number one being myself, talked about this.

So I want to say now, the thing is, as a professional patient...the medical fixes aren't that great. Miraculous sometimes, but still not great. And when you go to work on some of them, focusing on the weight part can be a big mistake. Like my neighbor, who put so much focus on diet - she couldn't actually hold down a job after she got medication for her vertigo finally. No job could accommodate her eating schedule.

And come to it, my own doctor for several years kept telling me to get a new job to accommodate my eating schedule. Like this would be a simple thing. For one, I'd lose medical coverage... and until Obamacare, yes, that probably would have been forever. So what is that - a few weeks to live left without insulin? Would I have been able to survive long enough to figure out some sort of government welfare program?

Sure, it's important to stay positive and not be a downer. I don't want to be mean. A person has to try. But it has to be pointed out. And I've taken a lot of my medical support team to task about it and made them cry and reminded them of their own horrors navigating the system themselves. Which ironically they'd forget, and some of their own stories were pretty horrific.

Anyways. Just shooting the breeze now.

... But having something to wear out of the house, you know, that's a little balm that goes a long way to facing down these struggles. That's why, for example, Locks for Love makes everyone cry when they think about it.

This has been an interesting and enlightening thread--and an emotional one. I'm totally onside with those who maintain size and shape shouldn't be part of the fashion equation and no one should EVER have to justify or explain her size or shape on a fashion forum. Like many, I've been frustrated at fitting into clothing that seemed designed purposely to make me feel bad about my shape (hello, 16" calves and size 11 feet trying to be wedged into a skinny jean) along with "helpful" suggestions like wearing a minimizer bra and a compresssion camisole so my broad back could fit into a designer jacket (pushing my smallish boobs sideways just gave me fat armpits and the compression camisole made my face turn blue from lack of oxygen )

But I'm more than a little unsettled by some of the pointed, personal remarks directed at Alexandria for daring to express a thought which underlies much of the attitude towards women's bodies these days. I'm not sure attacking the person, instead of the thought, ever changed anyone's mind. Those YLF members who managed to put aside their emotions long enough to compose a thoughtful, civil response ought to be commended because they've opened a window onto a dark place that haunts many of us. The emotional costs of not feeling good enough to warrant nice clothes are pretty evident here.

Fashion needs to be more inclusive, but we obviously have a lot of work to do to get rid of some entrenched attitudes. Towards that end, I hope Alexandria continues to feel welcomed into the YLF community and every YLF member feels she can express herself honestly, without fear of personal attack, as long as she does it with civility and respect.

Amen to this:

Xtabay, that's great!

After causing offense in a group, it's healthy for the offending party to provide an effective apology. We'll just have to see if that happens. As always, I'm happy to provide resources if requested, because a lot more is required for an effective apology than most of us are aware of. If you'd like to look it up yourself, John Kador's book and blog are a solid place to start. To his lists of what's required for an apology to be effective, I'd add "demonstrated learning" for this particular situation. Otherwise, the "but everyone's got to start somewhere" defense falls flat.

A few unhealthy social fallacies around ways of handling conflict are listed here:
http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

It's frankly terrifying to see a woman trying to suppress other women's expressions of righteous and appropriate anger.

Anon, yes, I've been given a lot to think about and I am still processing it all.

I'd like to reiterate that my original post was not judgemental. I look at obesity as a symptom of an underlying medical (or genetic, if you will) issue, such as undiagnosed food intolerance so I don't judge the person any more than I would someone with acute appendicitis.

Thank you all for your contributions.

Gaylene, your post has made me realize that perhaps my post could be taken as an attack on Alexandra. That was not my intent. It appeared to me that she used her own body, experience and measurements as a reason to think that undiagnosed food "allergies" (in the technical sense, allergies produce immediate and visible reactions, while intolerances can cause things like diarrhea or bloating) caused obesity. What I was trying to say, perhaps not as effectively as intended, was that the relative experience and struggles of a thin person cannot necessarily be extrapolated into the experience of an overweight person. In other words, an ongoing food intolerance that adds 1/2" to a thin person's waistline cannot be interpreted to add 10" to another person's waistline over the course of more time. Food intolerances can cause bloating, digestion issues, and issues with nutrient uptake; food allergies can cause itching, throat closure and anaphylactic shock. But it is mostly unscientifically proven conjecture that says that food intolerance can lead to obesity.

The point I was trying to get across was that people who struggle with their weight are in touch with their bodies and have medical providers just as thin people do. They know what makes them feel lousy and what doesn't, and many of them have taken allergy tests for food. The assumption that someone has the "answer" to obesity is fallacious, as if food allergies were proven to cause obesity and an elimination diet caused permanent weight loss without fail, someone would have been wealthy over it by now. "Diagnosing" people one has no knowledge about is an extraordinarily assumptive behaviour.

And last, perhaps we need to change the opinion that obesity or overweight is a "condition" that needs "curing". There are artifacts from tens of thousands of years ago showing women with large, rounded bellies and pendulous breasts. Surely those women were not consuming high fructose corn syrup or hydrogenated oils or even wheat. Were undiagnosed food allergies the cause of their obesity as well?

Thank you to all who have shared so eloquently and personally here.

Alexandra, the thing is, the question "why don't they do XYZ" can sound judgemental of the obese person for NOT treating what another thinks is the underlying cause of their size. Though I'm not sure how one treats genetics (as in bone structure, proportion, height, breast development, ability to develop muscle, etc.). We just don't all have an inner Kate Middleton hiding inside. I'm a tall, galumphing, eastern European peasant. It ain't gonna happen.

In any case, as others have pointed out, one can be "plus sized" without being obese.

Myself? I acheived size 10-12 earlier this year (145 at 5'9") after many wasted decades of self doubt and torture and yo-yoing. How? Leukemia and thyroid cancer. My doctors did not encourage me to remain at this fashionable weight. Fortunately, I have gained some weight and they are happy, and so am I.

This very worthwhile conversation reminds me of two things:
1. Some teen magazine from my youth, in the early 70's, that recommended an ideal weight of 100 lbs for your first 5', and 3 lbs for every inch thereafter. Lol whut as the kids say.

2. A Doonesbury cartoon from the Jane Fonda workout era. It's after hours, the studio is closed, and Jane is in the office with the (black) cleaning lady. Jane tells the woman that she would do well to come in for a workout session. "I'm too busy," says the woman, " with three jobs and public transportation and a family to support...." "So am I," says Jane. "i'm an actress, mother, wife, and I teach classes all day!". "Yes," says the woman, "but you're as busy as you want to be. I'm as busy as I have to be."

Chewy, Yes. Several folk I know have had this experience in overt and covert ways. Except it is a grand no-no issue. Realistically, what can can you do though.

I had to chortle a bit, Xtabay, as the t-shirt is on a thin model.

From a public health POV obesity is indeed a condition that needs to be addressed across society. Diabetes, heart disease, etc etc etc.

Then perhaps Alexandra could define what she considers "plus" vs "obese."

Hah, true, binkie! But I do love the attitude. (The shirt is available in sizes XS - 4XL, BTW.)

Em, as I said in my last post, there are figures of obviously overweight women from nearly 30,000 years ago. Surely that was not considered a health concern at the time, as they were likely more fertile than women half their size.

Is it possible that while sometimes high fructose corn syrup and hydrogenated oils cause obesity in someone whose genes would have made them thin, while vegetables and meat cause "obesity" (a BMI over a certain number) in those who are genetically predisposed to be larger individuals? In other words, is obesity sometimes damaging and sometimes "natural"?

My sister is 5'9" and has had the classic hourglass figure since she was about 14. As she matured, she is naturally around a size 16. When she severely restricts her diet, she can get to a 12, but that involves a LOT of work. I am naturally about an 8, though I can go over that with an unhealthy diet. I have always had less of a difference between waist and hip, and my breasts have never been as large as what my sister had at 15, even while I was pregnant. No one can tell me that my sister and I should be 3# different for each inch she has on me. That would be absurd. She is naturally a larger person than I am, despite growing up in the same home, eating the same diet and being under the same societal pressures.

So I'm not saying that obesity is not potentially a health issue. It can be. But what I am saying is that I would never put myself in a position to judge who should and who should not be "overweight".

I am not a regular commentor, although I read daily; this thread annoys me beyond belief. I have every right to expect to be dressed fashionably, comfortably and beautifully. Isn't that what Angie says 'dress the body you have'.?

I don't want to or have to lose weight, and it's exceedingly judgemental that Alexandra thinks that.

The bourgeois comments afterwards by multiple people are also crabby. It's not an 'interesting' thread, it's discriminatory. And cliquey. Not that anyone will miss me but I'm done reading this

And for the record, I'm a Canadian size 12, usually a 10 in the US.

Ugh!
plus-size mentality???? Seriously?!

I've been too busy to read the forums for a few weeks and this is what I come back to? Thank you to the ladies with much more level heads than I who managed to reply eloquently and politely. My initial response was unprintable, my second was suck it. I might at this point, after reading some amazing responses, be able to respond a little more rationally.

Yes, the post is offensive. Yes, the post was judgemental.

Hi, I'm FAT. I've always been fat. I don't have to explain why. Or try to prove that I'm a good fattie, not one of those fat slobs with a bag of potato chips and a Big Gulp always in reach. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHY.

Yes, I want fashionable clothes in larger sizes. I deserve to look and feel amazing at my current size. I expect
clothing manufacturers to make fashionable clothes in larger sizes.

This has actually been very productive.

The availability of stylish plus size clothes has gotten so much better over the years. Mainly because of the demands of my fellow plus size women. The ones that refuse to be pushed in a corner. The ones that fight against judgement and shaming.The ones that ignore the rules that others have set out for plus women. The ones that wear whatever their stylish hearts desire. It still should be better. I will continue to make those demands on the fashion industry.

Well - I did say it was an interesting read, to the anonymous poster. I'm sorry you feel that way but I still wouldn't change my comment. This is not an endorsement of everything that was said by either Alexandra or the people who answered. I could tell you in detail why I thought it interesting and why it resonated with me but as Jenn said, I don't have to post personal details on here to justify anything. And I totally agree that everyone has the right to dress fashionably with the body they have.

I don't know why I follow this thread well, that a lie yes I do. Because I'm a reader and curious.

Lane Bryant hasbsome body confidence commercials that I love. Although from perfect it is an empowering thing to see.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=.....BwyTCCMtVQ

It was actually banned from TV but the message still got out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=.....ASfeJiV5qQ

Ledonna, I have absolutely no clue about US TV - why was this banned? There were some things alluded to in the article, but is it true that they banned this but wouldn't have banned the same spot with skinny people? I already noticed how much of an issue breast feeding seems to be (no matter the body) which I don't get as a German.