Fantastic list, Suz, and worthy of posting on all of our closet doors!

@minimalist: your concern about shifting the burden of educating ourselves to others is totally valid, but I also think it's gaining a peek into another reality which spurs us into self education. Asking a question on a forum like YLF elicits information from a number of sources, not just from a particular person or group, and responding is always an individual's choice, not a requirement.

I think both the person daring to offer up the question and those who willingly and courageously try to respond with personal insights and experiences can help remove the blinders of ignorance and indifference.

Minimalist, thank you, and thank you also for the terrific links!

One of those articles also makes a point I forgot, that we can forego complaining about our body's shape and size in front of friends who may be dealing with the legacy of body-shaming.

It is okay, I think, in most situations, to state objective facts about the fit challenges we also face (e.g. I am small busted and it is hard to find pretty bras in my size) but we should not try to equate a problem like this with difficulty that larger women have in finding clothing, and I shouldn't equate an insult about my flat-chestedness with the prejudice and body-shaming that my larger friends endure.

I also think it is insensitive if I whinge about the shape of my (hard working and only slightly different from typical) legs when my friend has been trying for months without success to lose weight and still can't fit into regular sizes.

Of course, it would be nice if we could all stop shaming ourselves, too, but considering that we all deal with some cultural baggage, most of us, even the most self-confident, will have *down* days when we wish some part of our body was other than it is. I'm not saying it's never ok to express those feelings. But I do think it is a kindness to try to consider our audience before we do so.

I've had to read this thread carefully -- I'm not in a very strong place at the moment, and, frankly, it made me weep.

First, I'd like to shout out that I'm the statistical average. I'm a 14, sometimes a 16, and occasionally a 12. Shopping wise, it's like sitting in the crack of the sofa during a Lord of the Rings marathon -- in-between and uncomfortable. Plus size clothing never fits, and the most elegant manufacturers don't fit either my frame or my budget. I'm a good 40-50 lbs heavier than I should be, but, at my lowest weight of 150 ( at 5'6" and in my twenties), I had clearly visible ribs, about 19 percent body fat and was a size 10 (likely a size 8 in today's measurements).

Secondly, the current research is busting a lot of myths about weight and food (I've been reading David Ludwig recently). We are in a real transition point in the study of nutrition, health and obesity, and I'm doing my best to align my lifestyle with emerging science, all the while working a job that gives me no medical coverage or benefits while raising a family on a shoestring. Right now, the anxiety and time crunch from my new job means I'm not eating as well as usual, and I'm getting less exercise and sleep.

Everyday I feel "less than" because my body is considered "more than."
Every. single. day. I try not to look in the mirror.
It sometimes feels as if women prefer thinner friends as much as men prefer thinner wives.
I have a husband who cherishes me, and yet I am still disappointed in myself, even though I know that I'm resourceful and hardworking. My accomplishments pale beside the reality that I'm bigger.

Although the real truth is I'm the average.

Why don't I change?

I'm changing everyday. I'm pushing it to make my way in the world. I'm praying for and loving my teenage children and wonderful husband. I'm serving God and my community, working in a helping profession that hasn't seen even a cost of living raise in !4 years! I am formidable, creative and kind, and I'd like to have a day when I don't feel "less than" because I'm "more than." I don't want to size out my smaller sisters, but I'd like to walk into a store and pick up the average size off the table, instead of having to dig through to the bottom of the pile, knowing that that I'll try on 20 items to find one.

Did I mention that I"m average?

I happen to be in the offended camp. There are absolutely metabolic, hormonal & genetic and health implications involved for some 'overweight' people. When I developed Sjogren's, Hashimoto's Thyroiditis and Lupus SLE, my weight became much harder to manage.
I have been with a man for 22 years who out eats me at most meals but has always had a 29" waist. He gets far less cardiovascular excercise than I do and neither of us eat gluten or processed foods, as of nearly 5 yrs ago. Every person and their body, is unique.
And weight is absolutely not always indicative of how you care for yourself or what your goals are.

And even if it were, who says everyone shouldn't be able to easily find clothes ? People aren't cut from the same cookie mold. Are some people more intrinsically valuable for being skinny when they may be in the camp, like my partner, who doesn't have to work for it? Being thin is not automatically indicative of health or effort. My Mother is a 91 lb type 2 diabetic.

One more repeat story: When I became diabetic, before diagnosis, I went to the ER. Because I had become so thin in just a couple of weeks you could see ribcage. Do you know what all the doctors and nurses did? They berated me for 'not taking care of my diabetes.' Like I'd been abusing myself for years. I was very much angered. How about you prescribe me some insulin and then me not use it first, before you yell at me?

So you see the problem. Or problems. For one, no doubt, being ER, everyone had seen their share of 'diabetics with issues.' But this is a problem with the human mind - thinking past performance is an indication of future (or in this case, present) performance.

And actually, you know, they didn't diagnose me as type 1. They decided to call me type 2, simply because I was an adult, despite all the indications. They said it to my face.

ETA: What I'm saying is, even tho the complaint may be surrounded in weight and diet terminology - and there *is* a coexisting epidemic of obesity - that doesn't mean weight is in fact the issue at hand.

Beth Ann, you are average in size but you will never be "average" in any other way -- because your heart and soul are so much bigger than that.

And because you dress yourself beautifully, with grace, style, and determination.

I think it is probably harder to be in the "in between" size range than any other place. Designers are really losing an important part of the market.

This bears repeating:

"Why don't I change?

I'm changing everyday. I'm pushing it to make my way in the world. I'm praying for and loving my teenage children and wonderful husband. I'm serving God and my community, working in a helping profession that hasn't seen even a cost of living raise in !4 years! I am formidable, creative and kind, and I'd like to have a day when I don't feel "less than" because I'm "more than." I don't want to size out my smaller sisters, but I'd like to walk into a store and pick up the average size off the table, instead of having to dig through to the bottom of the pile, knowing that that I'll try on 20 items to find one."

Respect.

Beth Ann *applause*

I applaud Beth Ann and Ledonna for their courage to comment here in the way that they did. You both ALWAYS looks fabulous and attractive. You have been blessed with the best attitude that is the BEST service to yourself, your family, and those you teach.

I applaud Suz for her wonderful "list", and forever soothing and thoughtful comments.

I thank Gaylene for the compliment.

And I once again want to thank everyone for their candid yet respectful responses here. (Alexandra, feel free to ask the question that was directed at me on a separate thread).

Beth Ann really heartfelt and well said. This part right here:

"Everyday I feel "less than" because my body is considered "more than."
Every. single. day. I try not to look in the mirror.
It sometimes feels as if women prefer thinner friends as much as men prefer thinner wives.
I
have a husband who cherishes me, and yet I am still disappointed in
myself, even though I know that I'm resourceful and hardworking. My
accomplishments pale beside the reality that I'm bigger.

"

Moved my heart so much so that it moved me to tears. I thought it was pregnancy and middle aged hormones catching up with me.

No, really I felt this way the 1st time I had to step on a scale in front of my fellow soldiers until the last time. Although in shape I felt ashamed of my body. I felt less than and always judged. I wore sweats when not working or in military uniforms. I avoided mirrors like a plague. No self confidence or body confidence at all. Now I knew what I could do and I performed outstanding in front of my soldiers. But I felt always ashamed and less than.

Isn't it interesting what we allow ourselves to feel and think? That inner voice is always the strongest. One day I just got tired of the same old song the negatives from within and from others. I made a conscious decisions to change the inner voice and to surround myself with those with positive attitudes. I set limits and boundaries with others and myself. I do this because it is my safety net such as when questions arise like the one asked by
Alexandra. My fiend calls them teachable moments every moment you have the opportunity to share with people maybe a different perspective than what someone else is used too.

from Alexandra:
"
Anna, yes, I live in a bubble. We all have our own. The only way
out that I can think of is to ask questions, listen, and try to
understand. Not just accept, but truly understand.

"

If we continue to ask the hard questions move outside of the bubble we may live in the the world may just yet be open to real change and empathy.

Beth Know that you are More than enough. More than enough as you are. You kindness and empathy your beauty of not just what you wear but, how your spirit shines forth is a lesson most of us could learn from. Thank you for sharing part of your journey. Thank you all for sharing part of your journey.

Hi Alexandra. I used to be like you. I have PCOS and successfully lost about 40 pounds from a careful combination of exercise and calorie tracking. I reveled in the great selection of clothes available for my size 8 body (I'm 5'9" and large-boned; I will never be a 2) and looked at the overweight people around me and thought, "If I can do this with a hormonal condition working against me, they can too. They're just not willing to try."

And then I gained it all back, plus some. I wear a 16-18 now. Other than that, nothing's really changed, except that the tried-and-true solution no longer works. I cook almost all my meals at home. I go to the gym 3-5x a week. I fill my refrigerator with fruits and vegetables and lean meats. I don't drink soda or smoke or have more than a glass or two of red wine a week. I do this while raising a teenage son, managing a household for a husband who works long hours and travels a lot, and running my own business.

I also shouldn't have to tell you any of this to avoid being judged. And you are judging when you call out overweight women for "unproductive" behaviors.

Should I really be castigated for saying, "Gosh, I wish I could just go to the mall and pick up a new pair of jeans that fit"? Or, "I wish I could try things on in the same store as my friend."

I do okay finding clothes that fit and are flattering, but yeah, I wish it were easier. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request.

Applause to Ledonna, too. You are an inspiration. One of the most stylish women I know.

Actually, I want to put this out there for consideration. When I think of the most truly stylish women I have ever seen -- I would say that the MAJORITY of those women are not model-sized or shaped. (Several of them were middle aged or older, also, and most were also women of colour.)

I am talking about the people I might see on the street or at a subway platform or in a restaurant. Strangers who I feel moved to compliment, if you know what I mean.

It is relatively easy to be "fashionable" in a superficial way if one is slim, has resources, and keeps up to date. It is a heck of a lot more admirable to develop an individual style if one faces challenges (due to fitting, finances or other) and yet the style that does develop is often so much more memorable.

Jenn--has a doctor ruled out a medical cause, like thyroids? At what point is your healthy lifestyle offset by the weight, and how can one reconcile the two?

Em, I mentioned the medical cause in my post, but again, no one should have to justify their size to a concerned stranger.

No indeed I meant no offense. My question was poorly worded. My apologies.

It has been both heartbreaking and wonderful to read this thread. Wonderful for the very respectful tone of the posts and for all that I have learned from the generous and brave women that shared their stories, lives and thoughts.Heartbreaking because the same stories reflect how much pain we inflict on each other many times motivated by external standards that are so flighty, and how we are made believe that a certain attribute defines a person.
It really bothers me the idea of having to prove you are worthy of things that should be a given for any human being. Beautiful, well thought and well designed clothes in a larger range of numbers should not even be an issue, there shouldn't be the need to actually point that out, but as we are not in a perfect world women have to voice it, and as anything that women stand up for there is criticism involved.

And honestly the concept of 'plus size' is so subjective. I am 5' 3'' and in my adolescence I would wear maybe an US 8, however I am from Portugal and there that always made me the fattest girl in class, that gave several members of my family the 'right' to constantly fat shame me. When later on I had to take medication for anemia and went up to a US 12 size you cannot believe the change on how people treated me, suddenly I was not smart anymore and I would get 'the look' from people because I still dressed in a nice way and refused to fade into the background.

I think that underlying the fight for more options in plus sizes is the fight to make the world understand that women are relevant, smart, funny, hardworking, loving no matter what the size.

Alexandra, going back to your question of the 'plus size mentality', I am not ok with the part of it that serves to justify food deserts, kids obesity because they only eat junk food, the resurgence of scurvy because they don't eat any vegetables.In my opinion this is the 'plus size mentality ' we should try to to change and to a certain point we can do it individually.

And one more: When I lived in the ghetto, there wasn't even a grocery store. And the cost of gas was the highest in the area...meaning leaving to go to the grocery was an epic ordeal. Nothing to apply any knowledge of nutrition to if you couldn't get out...

rachylou, This is so so true. It is a pet peeve of mine. This lack of walkability causes so many health issues. This was my graduate school research project. I could wax forever about this.

It's called a food desert. I belonged to a church that had no grocery store, no local restaurants, no mall only a gas station and corner liquor store. In both of these no fresh fruit or anything in the community . The nearest grocery store was a 30 min drive or an 1hr bus ride.

Our church was able to partner with other churches to bring in a fresh food truck on Sundays and also I help plant and tend a garden in our church lot. We have fresh herbs and spices green vegetables and fruits. The community is welcome to partake and we have sunday fellowship using the what we harvest.

Just because you are plus size does not mean you are the problem. I volunteer work hard dance hard rollerskate travel and just enjoy life. We do in life what pleases us. It pleases my soul with the free time I have to enjoy the gifts of works and helps. I did not enjoy the first 20 years of adulthood. I can confidently say that my late 30 & 40 have been so much better with this plus size body.

Jenn, I would add you to the list of amazingly stylish YLF women who wear a larger size. Your style is distinctive and alive.

Awesome garden pics!

Hey, y'all know, I wore sizes 14-8 between 15 and 30 yrs old (I've been shrinking oddly as the years pass.)

Also, I lived in the land of The Milkfed. Tall and Swedish American. The first time I saw a size 0 was in NYC. The skinniest person wouldn't have been able to fit a leg into that... and if they could, every pair of pants would be short pants on my homies... and that's why we need an electoral college: we don't all come from a coastal city... I was shocked when I moved to SF, how 'microscopic' everyone was. Mwahaha! I am convinced people grow smaller as you move out to the ocean.

Jus' sayin'...

Coming back to the thread to say thanks to those who wrote such encouraging words. I do work to advocate for myself, and I have been helped immensely by the YLF community. Dressing well is pleasurable, and it helps others see me in the most positive light, and I value fashion as a tool that helps me move about in the world.

Yes, LeDonna, you know what I mean about being constantly aware that you're larger, and that everyone around notices too -- although they sometimes choose to subtly "not" see you. I'm sure you excel at what you do, but wouldn't be nice to feel like we weren't "making up" for some perceived lack? You're also right that we have to diligent in how we speak to ourselves and what we surround ourselves with. This Christmas, we only spend 2 1/2 days with my inlaws, because that environment is too stressful and can't be the center of our holiday. I am so happy you are having the experience of becoming a mom! It has helped me, in that I know I'm a role model for my daughter. (I came to motherhood rather late -- giving birth to my son and adopting Maia in the same year, at 38). Your future is beautiful and bright!

Celia, yes, I know the feeling you get from others that you can't be smart if you aren't thin -- I'm so sorry you lived that, and it's always fascinating to me that people in the middle of the spectrum of bodies --- average sized people -- face the stigma, too. I have always loved your flattering outfits full of feminine color and your radiant smile and shining hair!

Rachy: You are so right to mention that illness can bring about huge weight swings, and medical staff are not always gentle or perceptive in dealing with them. My uncle was a Type 1, diagnosed at age 32. Type 2 is common in my family. Now, my friends commonly act as if I have high cholesterol or blood pressure, when I don't.

Suz and Angie: Thanks for your thoughtfulness! You understand that I share what I do without self-pity or anger. I am so thankful for the many gifts and blessings I have in life, extra weight seems such a small thing by comparison.

Alexandra: I understand that you asked your question to gain insight, and I think it's important to answer you graciously. I would encourage you to do read some of the newest research, particularly the research coming out of Harvard at the moment. I get a lot of good information from the NY times Well Blog. I also find the documentaries by British Michael Mosley fascinating. Then ask the question: Why are women who are the statistical average left out at the Mall? Are companies free to manufacture what they choose? Absolutely, but I'm also free to call them out for the attitudes behind the business model.

BrieN i wish i could give your post as well as a few others a giant thumbs up.

The intelligence wisdom grace and beauty of YLF members is impressive. I have learnt a lot from this thread-!some of it heart breaking, but most of it uplifting.

Beth Ann: !!! ... !

This is really a very good thread. Illuminating about specific perception gaps and perception gapping in general. So yet one more one more:

My gypsy neighbor had debilitating severe see-a-neurologist (except she couldn't get healthcare) vertigo. Someone suggested to her that she just sort of 'lean the other way.' Ahaha! Ok. I laugh, but it was neither funny to her or the person offering the advice.

Oh, and the vertigo caused her to gain a lot of weight. She became really fixated on food, became very rigid about what she ate and when. Because, I suppose, it was something ALMOST within her powers. I really became concerned about that, that she was becoming anorexic...turning on herself.

Rachylou, I knew someone like that, but her vertigo was caused by an ear problem. You know there is that bone or something in the ear that regulates balance...

She uses a walker.

Em - There seems to be quite a variety of conditions called vertigo. My neighbor didn't have a balance or inner ear problem. It was really neurological (as opposed to, e.g., food induced) migraine. She couldn't get up at all many days.

I get migraine if I eat too much peanut. That's like being stabbed in the head. But I don't think she had the head-stabbing part of migraine either.

So many wonderful thoughts, issues, comments in this thread.

While mass production has its upside, from my perspective clothing sure isn't really one of them. In the past [sewing eras] men and women of every size could dress in ways that at bare minimum fit -- and if they had the money, energy, and/or creativity, lots more words could be added..."flatter" "inspire" "add beauty to the world."

It makes me sick and sad that getting to that bare minimum -- let alone anything more -- is so much harder for people today. It takes too great a toll in terms of time, travel, money, and even mental health.

As a proponent of the Health at Every Size (HAES) movement, I'm also a fan of Style/Fashion at Every Size. That one will take take time to grow and become mainstream but I hope we're heading there.

On an "about me" note...while I'm on the smaller end of the scale and benefit from thin privilege, I don't live in a bubble; I have loved ones who need professional/appropriate/beautiful clothes in larger sizes. It's tough to watch those who fight feeling "not enough/too much" when shopping and so much easier to watch those that feel comfortable with and unapologetic about their bodies.

The latter is a lesson that applies across the sizing spectrum, and one I've struggled to learn. So as my way of thanking those who've gotten there, I continue to support people seeking to feel good about their various journeys -- whether related to health, style, or both.

Beth Ann you are so sweet, thank you. Actually when I read your initial post I couldn't believe that someone that has such a vibrant personality and with such a productive and meaningful life could feel somehow left out. It seems so unfair that people can discard the things you do, the person you are ,and the awesome sense of style you have to focus on a dress number.

Ledonna that was an admirable initiative, I am truly in awe of what you and your church accomplished. And I admire how fashionable you are, and how you know what you want when it comes to clothes and aesthetic.

Jenn you know I think you have incredible sense of style, and you are creative which in my book is a very big thing.