I've thought about this all day.... playing different scenarios over, and the only scenario I can imagine with a happy ending is "Hey, I'm going to take you somewhere really nice this Friday night.. so be sure to dress up!" and then when said date is happening "Wow! You look fabulous! That dress (or outfit) is great on you!"

Perhaps I'm from another planet, but I don't think that this is a tricky situation at all. If it was a gal who disliked what her BF wore, there would be no question here whatsoever. We'd be encouraging her to tell him in a respectful and tongue and cheek way to up his style quotient! Not so?

I think that all BF's share with their GF's what they like them to wear - and vice versa for sure! Keep the conversation lighthearted, intimate and fun. Be charming. Nothing too serious

I haven't read all of the responses yet, but I wonder if this guy is having attraction issues with her. In my experiences, men are either physically attracted to a woman or not. They may like the woman a lot, but they may be struggling with feeling attracted towards her, even if they know they should be. To me, not liking the way a woman dresses *could* be code for not feeling that special spark. Or, maybe he thinks he might feel more attracted to her in other clothing, so wants to see what that would look like. But the problem with thinking a woman might look better in certain clothing, is that it may not work. She may change her clothes, and he may still not feel that special feeling. Does that make any sense?

My fiance and I always tell one another what we like or don't like about the other's style. For me, I appreciate the openness, because it removes the necessity of me reading his mind to find out if he likes how my style is evolving. I personally enjoy dressing to attract my mate... actually, I find that to be a very science-anthropology friendly position on the subject.

Also, many of my girlfriends have a tough enough time finding a man who would be courteous enough to "phone a friend" in this situation. I think they'd be horrified if a great catch broke up with them... only to find out later that it was because he couldn't figure out how to discuss style. It'd be like he gave up on her without even trying to negotiate.

That said, my advice would be to do things in stages: dress up request, positive reinforcement. Repeat. Then a serious talk if needed.

Request: "I can't wait to see you - wear something fancy, 'cuz tonight we're making up for all the time we were apart!"

Reinforcement 1: "Holy cats, you clean up good. That ____ makes your ____ look sexy/cute/amazing. You should wear it every day."

Subsequent reinforcement: "Ooh. Why don't you wear that cute little _____ again? I really like that one!"

The Talk: "Babe, I can't stop thinking about how cute you looked when we went out to ______. Is there a reason you don't dress up like that more often? " Even if this doesn't get a result right away, it'll get her thinking about the topic and hopefully start a meaningful conversation centered on her feelings rather than a "fault" in her dressing.

Modgrl: Aaaaaaagh! No! I didn't mean to imply that your friend is a douche! (Gee, that word has been repeated a lot). That came out wrong. All I meant was that I think it would be very tricky, if not impossible, to try to tell your girlfriend that you think she lacks style without *sounding* like a douchebag. Even if she does.

ETA (to Angie): I thought this *was* a fun, lighthearted discussion! That was the tone I was attempting to convey, anyway. And yes, I think you can tell your girlfriend (or boyfriend) that you like her/him wearing certain clothes ("Wow, you look great in that _________, honey"), but I don't think you can suggest that you would like them to up their style quotient. I just don't think there's any truly tactful way of doing it.

I love MaryK's comment about preferences versus expectations. I think one of the reasons this topic could be so tricky to address is because it's often so easy to mistake the one for the other.

I'm surprised at the double standard being displayed here. There is so much hostility towards gear and inappropriate dressing, so much borderline-condescending lamenting over how clueless husbands and male significant others dress...but now the tables are turned and there is a concrete example regarding a woman, and it seriously seems to rub everyone the wrong way. After all the talk about how we dress conveys respect, and how it is a way of showing people that you care about and value what they think, why find fault with this guy?

I think it's right for your friend to be bothered. I'd be bothered too.

I'm with Angie, and also with Steph. This isn't as complicated as it seems. One of my male friends wears a lot of tshirts, but has a few really nice woven shirts as well. One day I complimented one of those shirts, and decided to tell him that he looked really good in woven shirts. He explained to me that it was mostly a budget thing--tshirts were only $10 but he was spending up to $80 for nicer tops. I told him he could easily find a lot of nice shirts at H&M on the cheap.

Then today he told me he was going to try and get a little closet makeover going because of my comments.

I never told him I had a problem with how he dressed, or I didn't like the tshirts. I just gave him a compliment, and hearing something nice, positive, and affirming encouraged him.

If I were your friend I'd create a situation for her to dress up, and take the opportunity to compliment her and make her feel good. Getting someone to up their style quotient is about being positive and encouraging, not critical and nagging.

I don't disagree with anything you've written, Maya. I think Rae, in particular, has a great plan for encouraging somebody to step up his or her style.

But I continue to think that any conversation that includes one dating partner saying to another dating partner, regardless of sex, "I really like you but you need to improve your wardrobe," is likely to end badly.

True, Mary! It's all in HOW it's said, right? That version would be rude and the "but" in the sentence is enough to put anyone off for sure. But when broaching the subject is a fun and intimate way - I think it could strengthen the bond!

This is a true story:

Friends of mine were dating (now they are happily married for 10 years), and he wore gear on their first few dates. My friend likes to wear trendy casual clothes. She was really put off his gear. So at the moment when they were going to exchange their first kiss, my friend hesitated and said to her date (now husband): "I really want to kiss you! I'm not going to be able to kiss you unless you take off that purple North Face jacket!". They laughed and laughed - he took off his jacket, they kissed, he never wore it again and the rest as they say is history

Angie, that's just awesome!

I know, Mary! And every word of it is true - this is a close friend of mine.

Maya: "I never told him I had a problem with how he dressed, or I didn't like the tshirts. I just gave him a compliment, and hearing something nice, positive, and affirming encouraged him."

Yes, exactly, that's what I've been saying all along. You *can* compliment someone on something nice that they're wearing -- in fact, that's the only way to do it. It sends the message you want without you actually having to say it. They'll get it.

Mind you, Angie's example of the purple North Face jacket is pretty funny, and I'll grant that it's an exception.

ETA back to that unstylish math major I dated....he had a cobalt blue button-down shirt that looked great on him, and I told him so whenever he wore it -- and over the next while, he acquired several more button-downs on his own. Clearly he got the hint! I still couldn't get him to pull the darn shirts out of his pants, though -- even though I kept yanking them out for him. I finally resorted to telling him that he looked idiotic with his shirt tucked in (yes, I did not win any awards for tact....give me a break, I was 19) and then I think he did it MORE just to bug me.

Sure, compliments work brilliantly! But first he has to find her wearing something he actually likes. That is where "create the occasion" comes in. If he creates an occasion and she doesn't like the occasion because she doesn't like the thought of dressing up, then that is good information for him; they can begin a discussion about it.

Mostly echoing others, as I hope he really does get some of how challenging it can be for a woman in her profession to dress in another way. He has to decide if this is an "it would be nice" situation or a major irritation/source of embarrassment.

If the latter he should move on, because I agree with all the comments that say he shouldn't go in expecting change.

For every person of either gender who's willing to be the dress up doll, there's another one who has very firm preferences about how they dress -- and all the compliments in the world won't change that on a regular/permanent basis.

He/anyone also needs to keep in mind that people's styles DO change over time. For every YLFer with a partner who loves her new looks, how many have partners who (silently or vocally) don't *like* their new XYZ, hair, or style?

I mean I feel in love with a man who ironed his pants, and am building a life with one who feel into the PNW "oversized fleece + Ts + jeans you could stuff a few cats into" rabbit hole.

He knows I much prefer him in more fitted clothes, he has me consult on the rare occasions he requires less rugged items, I compliment him incessantly when he is out of the baggy, he dresses appropriately for fancy/important occasions but...it is what it is.

[I don't waste money buying him "real" clothes in the hopes he'll wear them -- but every so often, I buy him fleece in colors that look gorgeous on him.]

If I really and truly needed someone to match my average level of non-super-casual I'd have to trade him in. If Modgirl's friend is already this stuck but thinks everything else about the woman has long-term potential, it's definitely time to talk. Especially as she may consider him a short-term fling!

Rita, I hope you will report back on how the conversation goes!

I've read most of the comments and I have a few thoughts:

1) If her style is a significant problem for Modgrl's friend, perhaps she is not the lady for him.

2) If he is fine with her as she is but would love improvement there is hope

3) Use positive reinforcement (compliment her when she wears things he likes)

4) Set her up to win: Dress up date night!

Back to #3.

I love the idea of window shopping, looking at magazines, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "Wow, I would love to see you in a dress" or "This would look great on you!"

IMO, it's one thing to lament your partner's style and quite another to expect them to change it. My DH has terrible style. We have been together long enough and our relationship is rock solid such that I *can* tell him when he wears something I truly dislike without hurting his feelings. I have accepted him as-is and though I would love to see him dress better clearly I will love him no less if he never does. He does enjoy nice clothes but often just doesn't want to bother thinking about it. It's more effort than he wants to make.

In a new relationship especially I would DEFINITELY stay away from any punishers - I don't like, why don't you, I wish you would... It will only create distance and hard feelings. Modgrl's friend should consider, what if she never changes her style? Can he live with that? If the answer is yes, then I'd say gentle encouragement and lots of compliments are the way to go. If the answer is no, then I guess dating her for as long as it's fun is great but ultimately they will probably part ways.

FWIW, I didn't give a fig about DH's style when we first started seeing each other. It was worse then than it is now (marginally anyway), and in fact when we first met we were both in military uniforms (BDUs). If DH didn't -need- grubby work clothes, we'd be in great shape these days. My only problem is when he wears his grubbers on days off. Why oh why? Well, cos they were within reach. That's about the long and short of it with him.

Love that guy.

RandomThought: everything you said. I totally agree. This thread has got me thinking about how much input we get to have in terms of what our partners, and even our children, wear. I'm going to start a new thread.

Truthfully, I've never had a problem with gear. I see the women in catalogs like Title Nine and Athleta, and I love how sporty and fresh they look. I have a couple of friends who probably shop exclusively at Patagonia, and because it fits their lifestyle and personality, I love the way it looks. I've known men who lived in flannel and jeans, and because they were in great shape and were athletic, it was damn cute. I'm pro-gear.

(Being totally uncoordinated and squeamish about the outdoors, I would look like an idiotic poser in the same things.)

whoa modgrl, looks like you've touched a live wire with this one! lots of VERY thoughtful replies. i didn't think i had much to add, really - until i remembered a couple of ladies i've been very close to. they both wore very unflattering, 'gear' type clothes because of very painful issues having to do with disordered eating, low self esteem, traumatic past romantic relationships, and so on. i have NO IDEA if any of this applies to the lady in your question. but if your friend has only been dating her a short-ish while, he may have no idea either. if it happens to be the case, bringing up this issue could get pretty emotionally fraught fairly quickly. you refer to how painful this type of 'conversation' can be if it's not handled well; and if this is wrapped up in hard emotional issues for a person it will only make it harder. so he may want to consider this angle before deciding if he wants to proceed.

my gut feeling on this one is that your friend would most likely be best served by really looking into himself about WHY this bothers HIM. i feel that the more straightforward and honest he is with himself about why this is important to him, the better he will be able to figure out what he wants out of the whole thing and how to go about it in a positive way. it's hard, i can't imagine caring about this type of thing myself so i have no experience to go by. but i can say that trying to change a romantic partner ......... can be successful if you have a very compliant partner and you make running their life your complete focus.

good luck to you and your friend! you are very thoughtful to try to help him with this problem - he's lucky to have you for a friend. steph

Fascinating thread!
One other possible approach is to frame the conversation in the context of professional challenges. Lots of women here have lamented at length about the dilemmas they face as science professionals who also have a certain style bar. Safety concerns in the lab, plus unspoken political pressures, make this a tricky situation for many of them. Perhaps he could start into a conversation about office politics and the way someone's attire plays into such situations. If he can't find a relevant example from his own life, perhaps he could draw on yours, Modglr. "I was talking to my friend soandso the other day, and the craziest thing is going on at her work." Insert anecdote here. "Do you ever come across this type of thing in your lab/university/hospital/whatever?" This would give him some preliminary insight into how she feels about clothing, which could inform whatever other discussions he decides to undertake. I'm with the others in believing it's a tricky but necessary conversation, and that positive reinforcement can work wonders. Marianna had a hilarious example akin to Angie's friend. She mentioned it once on the forum, so I'm not telling tales out of school when I say that she took her present-day fiance shoe shopping on their first date because his footwear was just that bad! Such examples are likely rare, but the conversation can take place and can end well.

i'm pro gear too. born and raised a north woods redneck so it just comes natural to me. that's also probably why my beloved and i can bluntly talk to each other about our preferences-- no delicately dancing around the issue. and while i convinced hubster to not wear short cutoffs to work, he still wears them around home, and that's great-- i have my own cutoffs i live in around the house. all in all i love the way he dresses. so while i probably sounded like one of those nagging shrews in my previous comment, jim and i love each other enough and give each other so much positive feedback, that we're comfortable with occasionally harassing each other. we actually enjoy harassing each other sometimes. weird senses of humor have we!