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YLF intervention for a friend

modgrl

(website)

Veteran

I got asked a delicate question and I'm hoping the sage ladies on this forum can give me some advice.

A friend is dating someone who wears mostly gear. From my conversations with him, it seems he really likes her but is uncomfortable with this style. She is a biologist. I think women in science have a lot of pressure with clothes, even though we try to pretend otherwise. This is probably the case in a lot of other professional areas as well. It seems like if we put too much effort or attention into our clothes, people think we’re not as serious about our careers, we’re too vain and we care too much about the way we look. It was a very difficult thing for me to get a grip on and I’ve only recently started to focus on my appearance. I grew up in the 90s when grunge was big. Caring too much about your appearance was definitely frowned upon. Even now it is difficult for me to pull off a polished look from head to toe.

He asked me how he can delicately broach this subject with his friend. I gave him some insights about my own style evolution but I'm not sure if my case study is going to help him. I had a series of comments from people that were really hurtful, they led me to re-evaluate my image and the way I dress and present myself to the world. I don't wish this on anyone, it was truly awful, but without this experience I would also still be wearing lots of gear and unflattering clothing every day.

Do you have any suggestions for how he can start this conversation with his friend? Thanks for any advice you can give!

General

50 replies

Latest reply was from journey

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

If she's working in the field a lot, it just might be the most practical solution for her. I know this is the case with my husband, who is a geologist. He has to be wearing something to work that will be fine if he has to end up hiking through the desert. Honestly, if it bothers your friend that much, then it's probably not the relationship for him. You can't start out a relationship thinking that you will be able to change the other person- you will always be disappointed.

Dashrashi

Veteran

Yeah, this is pretty fraught. "I like you, I think, but you dress like a hobo" is not an encouraging thing to be communicating at the early stages of a proto-relationship, even through a proxy. If you've met her a number of times and it wouldn't be weird for you to want to spend time with her on a friend basis yourself, you might ask her to come shopping w/ you one weekend, but if that would be weird, there's not really a good way to approach this.

Freckles

Veteran

I think the only way to gently introduce the subject to her is if they were attending a black tie event or wedding with a dress code. He could then just say that it is this dress code...

Other than that I'd say leave it alone.

MsMary

Veteran

I was thinking along the same lines as Freckles. If he wants her to dress a certain way on a given occasion, he needs to open his mouth and say "I thought it would be fun if we dressed up a little for dinner on Friday. How about if you wear a dress and I wear a jacket and tie?" Or "The wedding dress code is black tie so you will need to wear a long gown or cocktail dress."

I think those kinds of specific requests are more likely to produce positive results than something like "Dear, we need to talk. I like you but I hate the way you dress."

Scarlet

Veteran

I think the wish for better style has to come from within (or most gentle direction over YEARS). It seems like a no-go zone to me. Either she is so great he takes her gear and all, or it's just not the right lady for him.

Sveta

(website)

Veteran

The only safe thing which comes to my mind if he somehow steers her to the mall for some window shopping. Then he can make calculated coments like " Oh, I would love to see you in this dress, you would look amazing in it! " and such. As little girls we all played dressing up and adored it, right? I am sure it lives in each woman but in some of us it is buried much dipper. Can we really refuse a dress up game?

KristineK

I guess I'm a little curious about why he's so uncomfortable with her style? Has she shown up at dressy or formal events wearing gear (or otherwise very under-dressed for the occasion)? Or is it just her standard, day-to-day wear that he doesn't like?

I agree with others that he should tread lightly here (if he ventures to tread at all). It's often hard enough for women to accept criticism, however well-intended and gently offered, about something as personal as how we dress from our friends, let alone from our significant others. Like it or not I think gender does add another dimension to this kind of thing, *particularly* if the woman in question regards herself as a feminist.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Wow...tricky situation, indeed. I share KristineK's questions. I wonder why he's uncomfortable with her style and what it means to him.

Some possibilities for why she might dress as she does:

1. She likes it.
2. She doesn't care about fashion at all.
3. She knows it is most practical for her work.
4. She hasn't had time in her life for shopping up until now.
5. Her style is "sporty-natural" but she hasn't yet refined that into a recognizable "look."
6. She does it by default, not knowing how else to dress herself, i.e. she would LIKE to dress differently, if only she knew how.

There may be others that don't occur to me.

Seems to me, if she falls into categories 1, 2, 3 and even 4, he had better decide what's more important to him: the relationship or how she dresses.

Only if he suspects she's a 5 or 6 does it make sense to carefully broach the subject. If he suspects the latter, then maybe he can persuade her to join us here at YLF!

Di

(website)

Veteran

I remember reading once that when we're concerned about a particular way that our mate presents him-/herself, it's because that's an area where we're insecure. It seems to me that this is your friend's problem, not his girlfriend's.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Ooh boy, that's a toughie. I guess submitting her to What Not to Wear might be overkill, huh?

If she wears mostly gear as you say, even out on dates, I can understand his discomfort. If he's aware enough of style that he's noticing such a thing, and he makes an effort to look nice himself, it's possible this will be a wedge in their relationship.

But many women just don't know how to dress other than the way they always have -- the woman in question works in a male-dominated field that is notoriously fashion-unsavvy, and who knows, she may have grown up relating to a more tomboy style and simply does not know how to branch out from there.

MaryK and Sveta make some good suggestions, but if those tactics fail, he'd better learn to love gear!

modgrl

(website)

Veteran

I am really enjoying reading everyone's responses. It broaches on a lot of different topics, not just fashion but also relationship dynamics. I truly appreciate everyone's replies!

Isis

Veteran

I'm in the "wondering why he wants to change her" camp.

Maybe she has no style, maybe she doesn't care about style, maybe gear IS her style....But it is part of who she IS!

My husband wears baggy jean shorts, black socks with sneakers, gear to work.....I wouldn't change him for the world!

Modgrrl, I am even agahst that people ever said anything to you about the way you dressed that was hurtful!

suzanne

I'm afraid that I can't think of any approach that doesn't hurt her feelings! (And I'm so sorry that you had to be hurt by others' comments!) Maybe it might be easiest for him to make her a gift of some-or-another special cloting item and tell her that this made him think of her. Just a thought! Good luck to him.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Modgrl, I can absolutely relate to you about (a) women in sciences feeling pressure to dress down, and (b) people who came of age during the grunge era feeling more comfortable dressing down -- because I fit into both of those categories. I was a biology major too, and graduated from high school in 1990. And, like you, I'm a little uncomfortable being polished from head to toe. I do want to look more polished overall, and I even (gasp) wear heels now, but as if to compensate, I now wear my hair in a shaggy, disheveled non-style (and since my hair wants to be soft and smooth, this takes some effort and hair products...).

Back to the original question, though: I don't think there is any good way for a guy to tell his girlfriend that he doesn't like her style. Imagine yourself in her position. What if a guy you were dating felt compelled to comment on your clothes in a negative way, and "delicately" steer you in a different style direction. I dunno, but if it were me, I'd say to him, see ya, go find someone else.

It's totally possible that this woman's style will evolve on its own (as mine did, and as yours did), or comments from others will trigger it, but there's no way her boyfriend can criticize her lack of style and not sound like a douchebag.

MsMary

Veteran

I've been thinking about this all morning.

If I were in the young lady's position, I think I would like to be given one heads-up that this is an issue, so I could decide whether or not this was a good time for me to give myself a style makeover. If I decided it wasn't a good time, then I would expect the young man to shut. his. trap. about it and either move on to somebody more stylish (if this is a dealbreaker), or (hopefully) concentrate on my many wonderful qualities and get over the style thing.

Therefore, my advice to the young man is as follows: Sit the young lady down and say something like this:

"Young Lady, you are such a fab person and I like you so much, but I am having an issue and in the spirit of honesty and openness I am going to share it with you even though it is likely to be uncomfortable for both of us.

"I think you are a beautiful woman, and I would love to see you highlighting your beauty by branching out beyond [whatever it is she always wears]. If you have any interest in getting more involved in fashion and style I could point you to some great resources online."

What he says next depends on how huge a deal this is to him. It'll be either:

"If not, that's okay too because I think you are a fantastic woman no matter how you're dressed."

or

"If not, then I have to tell you that maybe we aren't a romantic match, although I like you a lot and would love to hang out with you on a 'friends' basis."

Argh.

That TOTALLY makes him sound like a douchebag, doesn't it. But the fact of the matter is, if he's gonna break up with her over her clothes, he is a little douchey and it's probably best to be honest about it so the poor girl can run for her life!

ETA: Nope. This conversation is a non-starter. I want to go back to my original answer, which is essentially, "pick your battles and don't be a jerk, or break up with her if this is a dealbreaker."

Diana

Veteran

Hmm, tough one... I think I'd go with leaving it well enough alone though. I tend to think that there's no good way for the guy to bring this up, unless they are VERY close AND she is not the jealous type at all. If that's the case, maybe pointing out other women (such as yourself) who dress stylishly might work (as in, "hey, I love Modgirl's outfit today! Don't you?"), but there is always the possibility that she really just does not care about style. I'm assuming she is clean and hygienic and all that, so it really shouldn't be an issue. Some people just don't care about clothing and style and all that, and it's fine and if they're right for each other, he should just get over it.

There is definitely an unspoken bias against dressing too stylishly or trendily in science, particularly for women, although I think this is changing as more women get higher positions in the field. I am definitely the flashiest dresser in my lab, and it does get noticed-not in a bad way at all, but I also have worked with these people for a long time, so I'm not worried that they'll think I'm shallow or flaky or anything. I DO tone it down for things like interviews or if I am giving a talk at a conference or something, where I'll be meeting lots of people in the field whom I don't know. I generally go for kind of boring business casual in those situations, but there are people I know who would just wear jeans...

Steph

Veteran

I don't think there is anything wrong with the fact that this guy would like his girlfriend to dress in non-gear clothing now and again. I have read many posts by a lot of women here who shop for their husbands, tell their husbands how to dress for certain occasions, and work hard to change raise their husbands' style quotients. Is that really much different than this?

My guess is that this guy doesn't like going out with this woman and feeling she is underdressed wherever they go. Most women here bemoan the ubiquity of gear when people are out and about--this guy is probably similar in that regard. I think there are a few things he can consider doing to help get her out of gear. As Suzanne suggested, he could purchase something for her. This would depend on how close they are/how long they have been dating, but if he has some excuse to buy her something, maybe a piece of clothing would be a good idea. Obviously, he doesn't want it to be creepy or too Henry Higgins, but something like "I saw this top when I was shopping and I just had to get it for you because I thought it would be so pretty with your eyes," or "I wanted to buy you something so I went to xxx store and the saleswoman suggested these shoes" might work.

He could make casual comments about how much he loves certain types of clothing. This might best be done while, as Sveta suggested, window-shopping. So if they are walking through the mall together he could say "wow, that's a really pretty dress. What do you think of it?" and see what she says. It opens up the door for conversation without being too stressful. Maybe she agrees (and then as a surprise, he can go out and purchase it for her!). Maybe she says something like "oh, I would never wear a dress," and that opens the door further for discussion--he could ask why she hates dresses, what she does like, or maybe encourage her to broaden her horizons ("I think you would look so great in a dress, maybe you should try it one day").

I think that planting seeds can't hurt, and she might try to branch out a little. Trying to have a non-stressful conversation about it could really help as well, and he might be surprised--maybe she'll say something like "I never thought of wearing a skirt, maybe I should try one on."

catgirl

Veteran

Mary, I loved your post but agree with your first advice. I have never tried to change my husband's style of dressing, although if I had my way he'd be less Eddie Bauer and more Allsaints. And I would be offended by a potential mate suggesting I change my style. It's just a different dynamic than a friend with a catalog in hand saying, "Hey, you'd look super-cute in this dress!", and to me it leads to the question of what other changes might be required down the road to make the relationship work.

And she clearly isn't stepping up her game for him, which may be disappointing but is also truthful. At the beginning of a relationship, you're usually on your best behavior and I'd think dressing up would go along with that. Maybe this is her message to him - take me as I am!

KristineK

Like MaryK, I've been thinking about this all morning

I'll try to keep myself from veering too far off topic, but I keep wondering, why is this woman's style something that needs to be "fixed"? I realize that we're all posting our comments on a fashion blog, so everyone here believes at least to some degree that personal style is fun, valuable and important. But not everyone shares that point of view, and I think that's a valid choice too :-). While it's certainly possible that the woman in question would be very open to the idea of improving her style, it's also possible that the way she currently dresses is a thoughtful, well-considered choice which reflects her personal values.

Aziraphale

Veteran

In response to: "I have read many posts by a lot of women here who shop for their husbands, tell their husbands how to dress for certain occasions, and work hard to change raise their husbands' style quotients. Is that really much different than this? "

I see your point, Steph, but I think there is a world of difference between a woman shopping for a man who doesn't give a flip about clothing, and a man criticizing his woman's clothing choices. Some men care about clothes and and style (my husband does and always has, for example), but some don't, and they're perfectly happy to have their partner shop for them, and even steer them in a certain style direction. But I think it rarely works the other way around, mainly because women are judged more on appearance and physical beauty than men, and it gets wound into a woman's psyche and sense of self-worth (and this is unfortunate. I often wish that this double-standard did not exist, but it does).

I think a guy can make positive comments about his girlfriend's appearance when he honestly likes what she's wearing ("Hey, honey, you look fantastic in that dress!"), but that's about as far as it can go. Chances are, she'll gradually respond to the positive feedback.

MsMary

Veteran

Modgrl, one more thing I thought of to suggest to your friend: Ask him to do a thought experiment about how he would feel if the roles were reversed. Yes, women often take it upon themselves to improve their men's style, and from my observations men generally do. not. like. it. much. at. all. Often they end up feeling criticized and controlled. As, I suspect, this young lady might.

Steph

Veteran

I don't agree, elisabeth. It isn't like this guy has criticized his girlfriend's choices to her face or been rude to her in any way about her clothing. He has told a trusted friend that he wishes his girlfriend was a better dresser. How many women here haven't done the same thing about their significant others? He is also trying to determine if there are ways that he can improve her style, presumably without hurting her feelings. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

We don't know whether or not she gives a flip about her clothing--perhaps she is like many of the husbands and male significant others on this site who do not. We have no idea if she would be open to her boyfriend shopping for her. They have never talked about fashion or style, so we really don't have a clue. I do agree with you that appearance is important to women in ways that are different than its importance to men, but I doesn't think that means that this man can't do anything to try to get his girlfriend to dress a little more appropriately when they are together. (Nor does it mean that it carries that kind of importance for this woman.) Yes, he does have to tread lightly, but I don't think that means he can't do anything.

I also think it would be very sad to be in a relationship in which there are topics you simply can't broach with your significant other. I am assuming they are in a new relationship, and obviously you don't want to say "why do you dress like a slob?" to someone who you just started dating. But down the road, I certainly think that it would be fair and appropriate for him to talk to her about her clothing choices so that he can understand her preferences and why she has them, and I don't see anything wrong with subtly trying to have that conversation now, in a casual way. The assumption seems to be that if the genders were reversed the woman would just smile indulgently, thinking "once we get closer, I'll start dressing him," assuming because he's a man he doesn't care about his appearance and that's why he looks like a slob. And somehow that would be okay. But because it's the woman who dresses in gear, the man is somehow in the wrong for wanting to see an improvement in the way she dresses. Is it really so horrible to want someone you go out to dinner with to wear a pair of shoes that aren't Tevas?

Steph

Veteran

MaryK brings up a good point as well. I have known many women who do exactly what I said in my previous post--complain that their boyfriend is a horrible dresser, and then assume they can dress him. I feel like the men end up falling into two camps: 1.) the ones who really don't care (sometimes, their mothers still buy their clothes for them, which I find very disturbing), and 2.) men who dress the way they do because they like it, and are very resistant to the change. I guess there is a third category as well--men who would like to dress more fashionably, but just never thought about it before. It could very well that this woman falls into the second camp, in which case she will not be happy if her boyfriend tries to change the way she dresses, and he'll have to determine whether he can live with going out with someone who is always in gear. But if she falls into categories 1 or 3, his intervention might be helpful.

A very brief example from my personal life. My boyfriend actually does care about clothing and his appearance, and always has. When we met he was a good dresser and clearly wanted to make a good impression on others with his clothing. Very early in the relationship, I told him that it would be more fashionable if he tossed his pleated front khakis (literally his only fashion mis-step). He listened to me, tried flat-front, realized I was right, and never wore the pleats again. It is possible that sometimes people would want to improve their appearance, if they had an idea they could do so. He honestly had no idea that pleated khakis weren't the best look. It's possible this woman doesn't know that gear isn't that fashionable, particularly considering her workplace. That's why I say tread lightly, but try to figure out what her preferences are and go from there.

Heather

Veteran

Rita, I think you should ask your friend if this is a deal breaker. Better now than much later.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Steph, we'll have to agree to disagree. I still think it's different. But I do appreciate you taking the time to write a carefully-thought-out rebuttal. That's part of what keeps me coming back to this forum: the chance to discuss various topics with other intelligent women.

I should add that I don't love it when a woman tries to direct their husband/boyfriend to dress in a certain way, either, although there is absolutely nothing wrong with heartfelt compliments when he does wear something she likes. I just think it's not as bad for women to buy for their men because of (a) the physical appearance double-standard for women, and (b) the fact that I know MANY men who really, truly don't give a monkey's left elbow about style, whereas I've met relatively few women for whom I can say the same. There are lots of women who don't have fab style, but they would like to, and they admire other women who do!

I dated a man once who consistently wore clothes I hated. He always tucked his shirts into his too-tight jeans, but he insisted it was more comfortable that way. He also had a horrific mullet. But he was dead sexy in other ways (and he was a math major. I'm a giant sucker for smart men. I have a Spock complex), so I let it go. I don't think I would have married him, though.

MsMary

Veteran

I heard a well-known radio talk show "therapist" tell somebody not long ago that dating is the time you should be finding out whether the other person is a good match for you -- NOT the time you should be trying to turn them into a good match for you. Although generally I think this particular radio personality is pretty repugnant, I thought that advice was pretty spot on.

Trying to do an improvement project on anybody is just plain presumptous and out of line, in my view, unless the person has asked for help or at the very least jumped at the opportunity the very first time it's mentioned.

If this guy needs a stylish mate, he probably needs to look elsewhere. For both their sakes.

modgrl

(website)

Veteran

Lots of great advice here. I think my friend is not a douche, as some people here have implied. I think he does care, which is why he was asking for advice. But there's no magic wand and he needs to figure out if this is a deal breaker for him. If not, then he can try MaryK's tactic of "hey wouldn't it be fun to dress up for a date," but not expect any major long term changes.

MsMary

Veteran

I don't think he's a bad guy for feeling however he feels about his lady friend's style. I just think it's well nigh impossible to have the conversation without coming across kind of douchey.

He's totally entitled to whatever preferences he may have. He just isn't entitled to expect her to conform to them.

journey

i've really enjoyed reading everyones' opinions on this, it's been fascinating and i completely understand and applaud everyones' viewpoints. i'd just like to add that serious relationships are about flux. when you're not talking deal breakers, but serious relationships where the people concerned really care about each other, there has to be flexibility sometimes. my husband was still wearing extremely short cutoffs-- to work. he's a carpenter. i lobbied for longer looser shorts, pointing out that short shorts on guys went out with the 90s. now he's happier dressing a bit less disco era. on my part, i try to keep my hair semi-tamed and half-ways out of my eyes to make him happy.

so if this man is seriously serious about this woman then i don't see anything wrong with his sounding her out and finding out just how heartfelt she is about her gear lifestyle. is it something that she'd be happy to occasionally ditch for a night out, or is it a deeply held philosophical belief that wraps around her very core. who knows, she may actually be a sleeper fashionista who just hasn't dared come out of the clothes closet yet. maybe she would love dating a man who is excited about her putting on a dress and a classy pair of heels. but he won't know whether she's a hard core gear head or a sleeper fashionista unless they talk. talk is good.

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