Since I am new here and don't wish to offend anyone I am in the "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" camp. I've seen outfits that I wouldn't wear but I remind myself that the poster is often younger and thinner than I am. When I really don't like an outfit, but everyone else is posting how fabulous it is, I figure my conservative mid-western self just doesn't know what is fashionable! LOL

Just curious here. Am I a total weirdo because too much cheerleading makes me not want to post pictures? Now, before I cement my reputation as a total nutcase, I'm definitely not saying that I want to be humiliated and ripped to shreds--my self confidence isn't that good, for goodness sakes. But, in spite of feeling more comfortable now than when I first joined YLF several years ago, the thought of a host of "you go girl" responses to a photo makes me cringe inside.

Angie is nice enough to call my weirdness "lateral thinking", but does relentless positivity have that effect on anyone else? I can take advice, I love analysis, and I'll even grit my teeth for some well-delivered criticism, but reflex positivity has always made me roll my eyes, no matter how kindly the intention.

Ana, thanks for chiming in - you nailed it.

It's interesting that
some people are saying that 1) they don't feel qualified to comment,
and 2) that if they don't like an outfit, it's better to say nothing
about it, and 3) they don't know how to articulate what they don't like.

Now #3, that's super valid, I get that. Not everyone is comfortable writing. But as for the first two...

I comment on outfits I would not wear all. the. time.
Am I an expert? No. Does what I say need to carry a lot of weight?
No. Do I disagree with some "killer" outfits? Sorry, Angie - yes! Am I
often ignored? Doubtlessly! But that's why it's a *discussion.*

I
guess it bothers me that some of you think your opinion doesn't matter,
or that you must be wrong, or that you have to go with the
herd. For sure the forum will tell you if you step over a line. It's a
learning process. But IMO it's OK to disagree, and it's OK to ask, I
don't understand why this creates a good outfit, help me. Then we all learn something.

Is it brave to post pictures online? It sure is! But at least to me, if I'm gonna risk it, I want to maximize my returns!

IK, I see what you're saying, and I agree that no one should feel their opinion isn't valid. For me, I recently realized that I often find my "fashion priorities" (figure flattery, trendiness, whatever) don't align with the person whose outfit I'm viewing. So commenting based on my priorities probably isn't that helpful for the original poster, so I say nothing. And like I said earlier, I just don't think it's possible for me to track everyone's priorities and tolerance for feedback (because often one person's "kind" is another person's "she ripped me to shreds").

I understand, Gaylene! Case in point, my recent WIW in which I wore an orphaned fitted knit top from a few years ago with BF jeans, and even though I felt fine in the outfit from a flattery standpoint, I wondered if the top looked dated.

I got plenty of attagirl responses, which was great, but I really appreciated Anna chiming in that the top didn't strike her as very current. I was still happy wearing the outfit, because I don't feel like everything I put on my body has to be of-the-moment, but it was excellent food for thought. It even got me thinking about my trendy vs. flattery threshold and how ruthless I want to be about purging "not current" pieces from my wardrobe.

I know we discussed all this a few months ago. Do I like validation when I wear something great? Sure. But I am seeking constructive criticism when I visit here, so I do generally say in my posts "what do you think?" Or something along those lines. When I actively seek feedback, I tend to get more of a spectrum of responses than when I do not articulate that wish and just post a general WIW.

The forum has grown, and there are a lot of new participants here. As the community grows, I think we need to be clearer about what we want when we post pics. Nothing wrong with just wanting a little validation, but when we want more critical analysis, I think we just need to say, "hey, does this work?"

Heh, I will say that there are certain respected members here from whom I would occasionally like to hear feedback on my outfits. When I'm feeling insecure, the fact that I don't see much feedback from them leads me to believe they may not be a fan of my style. However, it might just mean they are not on the forum before my post drops down to a lower page, or whatever. Which all just leads back to the idea that at some point we have to be our own cheerleaders. As fantastic as YLF is, I am not dressing for YLF, I am dressing for me.

That's it, Janet. It's comments like Anna's and IK's that would be the pay off for posting a pic online. And, if I could get Ana eyeballing my outfits with her priorities, I'd be in seventh heaven!

I see the comment "feedback requested" or "hey, does this work" used more and more, which is a good thing, I suppose. But I also relate to Ana's comment:
I just don't think it's possible for me to track everyone's priorities
and tolerance for feedback (because often one person's "kind" is another
person's "she ripped me to shreds").

I've know I've spend time trying to re-phrase comments only to delete them and move on because I was afraid of inadvertently offending someone. Do we need a sensitivity gauge on our profiles to help us through this minefield. Or do we just shake our heads and move on until we find something we like enough to post an "attagirl" comment?

While I think the supportive aspect of the forum is truly wonderful, I'm more than a little sad if only Angie is able to provide critical feedback. She obviously has had more experience in delivering these types of comments, but I think the other forum members also provide a valuable service assessing an outfit from an average person-in-the-street perspective.

IK - I'm simply stating how I personally feel about critiquing, providing feedback, etc. and what I am comfortable with at this stage in my style journey. I'm not sure that should be construed to be "going with the herd". And I'm with you 100% that it is ok to disagree with the forum at large.

I think the bottom line is that everyone here has the right to post or not post what they are comfortable with. We all give and take here as we are able.

Hi Gaylene, fellow lateral thinker here!
(Waving at Gaylene)

Well, I did ask the forum about their thought process and expectations regarding WIWs and I got the most enlightening and gracious responses.
I also shared some of my thoughts.

Check it out!

http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....ur-purpose

Great job reposting that thread, Zap!

Gaylene, you always crack me up. Horses for courses! Different people respond to different types of reinforcement. That's simple Psycho 101. So nutcase no - but in the minority, probably. You are fringe

I bat for Team Genuine Positive Reinforcement. In my experience, both in Psychology and my line of work, blunt comments don't have a favourable effect. You can absolutely "tell someone straight", but be nice about it. I don't enjoy receiving blunt comments, so I don't dish them out either.

Gaylene, I love "you go Girl" comments here, but I know how you feel. Every time my mom tells me I look great, I want to smack her! LOL

I started posting WIWs because I felt that it is how we get to know each other. When I started posting, I was having trouble finding items that matched the image in my head. So I posted what I had. I got some good feedback, some bad feedback, and someone called me clueless. Eventually, I started to find things I wanted to buy. I am careful in my criticism because I dont really know where some people are on their journey. I'm also careful when I just have stink eye for a look. As I get to know people better it's easier to provide constructive criticism based on their own style goals and persona. I will try to do a better job in articulating what it is that I like or dislike.

Angie - I think you mean Psych 101. Psycho 101 was my last big job here in Texas. (Textbook! I still have nightmares.)

MaryK - I think moms might fall into a whole special category. I love mine, but her compliments always come with a little zinger, like "You're so slim now! Not like in high school." Yup. That's true, mom.

Shedev - See, that clueless comment is NOT constructive. No one likes that!

Let me start by saying, I think all the ladies here are amazing, but I never have been one to sugar-coat anything , because I feel it is an injustice to not only Angie and Greg, but the rest of us here. I've taken part of many fashion-forums, but this place is on an entirely different level, both with the honesty and integrity on which it is conducted, and from the many forum members it represents .I truly am grateful to be part of this rarefied community, and if it should cease to exist (God forbid) it will always be one of the things I am grateful to have been a part of, in my life.

Here, here, Biscuitmom! Well said!

If I'm craving more "constructive criticism," I find that keeping the post short and asking one or two very specific questions gets the job done. I've learned that if I ask, "Does this dress make me look fat? Or, "Is this wackadoodle?" people will give you the "Oh, no, no" standard response because they're reacting to my lack of generosity to my own self. If I ask "which of these pants has the most figure flattery," well, then folks seem much more willing to weigh in. I've also found that some of the most helpful feedback has come in the form of questions....."Have you ever tried........."

Thanks, Zap, for reposting your earlier thread. I think revisiting that discussion was quite helpful! Atta girl! (lol)

i agree with Beth Ann, i find a direct question gets the best response, and its easier for me to comment as well. i am not a frequent WIW poster, but when i have posted, i tend to be posting becuase i have a question/concern, and telling you what it is, will make the responses back to me more meaningful and actionable.

I don't mind feedback but I take it all with a grain of salt and always consider the source. I know some people don't or don't like my style.
Yes the forum is different. I've used to be on the pre world wide web board on usenet alt.fashion. They would tear you to shreds. Flame wars, anyone?
I'm perfectly fine with it being a positive place. I have to be hard at work, dating is hard, etc. It's nice to have a place where I can let my guard down.

For sure we should keep it a positive place, I agree.

And I always find you very responsive to feedback, AG.

Great discussion here. Dana, you always start interesting threads.

Oops! Cheerleading again, I see.

In all seriousness, I agree with Shannon that we give what we're able -- and sometimes a thoughtful critique takes more time or effort than we have. So if we generally like the outfit, we cheer it and move on. And if we don't like it, we stay quiet.

Which doesn't mean we're not thinking about it. Some of my own best learning has probably come in those times when I've been unable to comment because I could not quite articulate what I was feeling.

I also agree with Beth Ann. If we want constructive feedback, it helps to ask directly -- to tell what worries us or even what we loved and ask others if they agree or not, and why.

I want to cheerlead for this thread, Dana! Thank you

A lot of what Gaylene says resonated strongly for me. Yet, I hadn't actually noticed a shift, maybe because I've not been as active here as I would like in the last year.

I will say that I used to wade in, fashion naive as I was and largely still am compared to many of you and certainly the likes of Angie or Anna or...heck, any number of you! But then I DID have a bit of 'ummm, I don't think I know what I am talking about' and reined it in a bit.

So speaking of kindness, I appreciate the kindness and forbearance shown to me as a rookie 'critic' on many an occasion. But I agree that sometimes (often?) we need more (wo)man on the street perspectives and not just expert or fashion-forward opinion. So I will try to keep wading in, on balance.

I will also say that I remember being somewhat frustrated and upset by early responses to my early WIW or K/R threads (I used to think R was reject...that early). Very rarely because a comment did not get my 'style' or culture. Much more often because I was in SYC and just did not have the resources to implement the suggestions or the interest in that style.

ETA: But I wasn't complaining! That's were the lessons were!
Just that momentary distress leads to growth and change.

And, to the point many are raising about asking specific feedback, did not know how to articulate this. Sometimes, at all. Sometimes, not without writing a novel. I mean, I have to know enough about fashion and proportions to even ask 'is it the pants?'---and I didn't! And I'm ever so grateful to be accepted here despite a vastly different culture and geography, and I do understand it is difficult to address the alien place/party, but it is equally tedious to explain with each post the nuances of what a skirt or dress 'means' in your context. So I either ended up long-winded and apologetic. Or troubled that I had not explained myself well enough.

But most frustrating was when I posted hoping for ideas on improving and got mostly 'how lovely'. So YES, IK! Don't get me wrong---I certainly needed and often still need a boost, handholding, virtual hug, 'you're okay' reassurance...and I am eternally grateful to this forum for that, especially when/if it is missing from real life. One of the myriad reasons some of us post. But still... I'm also here to get feedback and to learn, because truly 'the eye sees not itself' and I often feel I can usefully critique someone else's outfit better than my own because of distance. (Btw, when did feedback became an euphemism for constructive criticism, which when I was little was euphemism for, uh, criticism?)

And finally, THANK YOU, Beth Ann! I now get why I get more encouraging comments and less
suggestions to improve! I typically sound moaning and whiney or at least self-deprecating, don't I? No wonder most comments are directed at shoring me up!

When I post an outfit I want very honest feedback (good or bad) and have sometimes wondered if that was actually happening, so I totally hear what IK and Ana are saying. Mainly I want to better understand why something is or is not working, as I don't always have the ability to see those things for myself. When commenting, I try to be honest and helpful if I don't love something, but also kind.

But, is it more kind to be honest or not completely honest? Let's say I'm going to an important event and look like a hot mess. My friend tells me I look great because she wants to spare my feelings, but is she doing me a kindness?

I can be a bit too direct sometimes, so I have to be careful because others may not share my desire for such straightforward feedback. It's tricky, because we are all different.

IK, I like your examples of feedback. A little (more) off topic, in clinical medical teaching there is a feedback technique called: "S**T sandwich". Basically, you sandwich the negative comment between two positives. Such as: "Love those glasses. Horrible choice of footwear. And nice hairdo!" Softens the blow...

Sorry, I just had to laugh to see mention of alt.fashion -- I was also on there, long long ago. Usenet is not for the faint of heart! Thanks for the blast from the past, Anna!

Kyle--yes! When you wrote,

But, is it more kind to be honest or not completely honest? Let's say I'm going to an important event and look like a hot mess. My friend tells me I look great because she wants to spare my feelings, but is she doing me a kindness?

I can be a bit too direct sometimes, so I have to be careful because others may not share my desire for such straightforward feedback. It's tricky, because we are all different.

I think you hit the nail on the head for me, and why I tread very carefully. I know there are days when I just want someone to tell me I look good, but for the most part, I feel the same as you do. I'd much rather people be very honest with me.

Along those same lines, I recently realized that I must have a high tolerance for criticism. Even very direct (although not vicious) criticism. I remember several conversations on the forum over the years of members dealing with negative comments from people in their lives when they started dressing more nicely, or taking fashion risks. And I thought, "Wow, that has never happened to me. Everyone around me must just be so nice." But now I think people probably did make critical comments that I just blew off and forgot about, or misinterpreted as a compliment, because I have a high tolerance for that sort of thing. Like, "Oh, you were trying to be critical? You need to be much more direct with me than that." Or maybe my willful ignorance is where my tolerance comes from.

I think maybe, if I'm asked for my opinion, I tend to be very direct because of that. I know not everyone appreciates that much honesty all the time (and that's fine). So it's always on my mind when I'm offering feedback. I don't want to be too direct, because I can't remember if this person prefers a lot of honesty or is having the kind of day where they just want to be told they look good, which are both valid. And for me, under those kinds of circumstances, it's often easier and less stressful to just say nothing, because then I know I didn't say something that inadvertently hurt feelings, especially when I can't talk to the person face to face.

Wanted to add that now I know Gaylene and IK want critical feedback, it'll be wall-to-wall honesty. There'll be no escape! "Girl, burn those jeans immediately and bury the ashes in a lead coffin."

I agree with you IK, and that's why I never comment anymore! I guess I'm too much of a straight shooter, lol

Thanks Dana for starting such an interesting thread!

LOL, maybe we should have a siggy at the bottom of our posts that states how much honest feedback vs. cheerleadering we want. We could change the scale from "Tell it to me straight, sister!" to "You go girl!" only, at certain times of the month when we're feeling sensitive. (Totally tongue in cheek!)

But seriously, I do really appreciate feedback, especially when done in a positive manner. And I don't think Angie is the only one qualified to do analysis/feedback, even though she is the professional. I have learned so much from the comments/feedback from everyone, and don't think I could have grown and evolved so rapidly if I hadn't had the help from you all, especially when I was first starting out. We all have different styles and I love how everyone can critique and enjoy others' style even if it's vastly different from our own.

I actually didn't, Dana. I meant Psycho and not Psyche :). That's how we shortened the subject at my University. I hear things are different in the US!

I've been thinking about this a little more, and am going to be very presumptuous. In my experience, there are very few people who can handle blunt feedback. They might think they can - and they even say they can. But when push comes to shove, it often hurts them on some level (perhaps not immediately but maybe later), and effects them negatively - instead of positively. We are discussing very personal matters here - our bodies, appearance and budgets. This is highly emotional terrain - and it's a highly subjective topic where there is no right and wrong. Opinions will run the gamut! I am all for the truth, and I do not want you to say that you like something when you don't. But we have to be nice and respectful about how we deliver information. I think it's always better to assume that people are sensitive, even when they don't appear to be.

Mary, I'm trying to understand why you would want to smack your Mother when she says you look nice? Help me out!

I guess a lot of this comes down to personality. I am direct and writing is not my best talent so online communities have never been my strength. I'm going to have to look up the lateral personality definition, because I really tend to identify with and enjoy comments by those labeled so by Angie.

Absolutely agree with Gaylene that the cheerleading has kept me from posting a picture. I like what I wear and I dress for me. So the cheerleading doesn't benefit me. I also find myself reading threads other than the WIWs more frequently. When the forum is low on those other posts, I tend to wander off for awhile.

So many interesting things posted on this thread! I love the critical analysis.

Whilst I love a bit of debate, can I now make a suggestion? Let's stop analysing ourselves into knots and just post as usual

Love from

Team Blunt Cheerleader.