What does androgynous mean to you? - YouLookFab Forum

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What does androgynous mean to you?

Jonesy

Veteran

I am curious about perceptions of this term, after seeing several people include it in their descriptions of what they are not, style-wise. To me, it means a mix of both "masculine" items (i.e., clothes, footwear, and accessories that are commonly identified as more male) and "feminine" items. An example might be pairing a moto jacket with a pencil skirt, or a pair of oxfords with a somewhat romantic blouse, or a pair of "boyfriend" jeans or cuffed denim shorts with a soft, flowy top, or a menswear-type vest with heels, or a fedora with a summery dress. I enjoy this sort of juxtaposition, so I've included androgynous as one of my style words. It does *not* mean, at least to me, cross-dressing or dressing like a man.

What do other people think?

Dressing

56 replies

Latest reply was from Patty

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Snap! My impression and interpretation is like yours, Jonesy.

Androgynous is also not "butch" dressing either. I have clients that I dress in a hip and butch way and it's a fun process.

Now, there is a difference between Tomboy and Androgynous dressing. We'll give Rae the honour of defining that difference.

Jonesy

Veteran

We are on the same wavelength! Yes, I totally agree that butch and androgynous are different, though I'm wondering if others feel like they are synonymous...Very curious to see if Rae pops in and deconstructs the difference between androgynous and tomboy. I am always fascinated by everyone's different perceptions. Maybe that's why I'm a social scientist by trade :).

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

We often are, Jonesy

Ah! You are a social scientist. I LOVE how your style expresses this discipline. Like I said, you are sooooo honed in on your style!

Very simply put, butch dressing has no feminine elements to it, whereas androgynous dressing does.

taylor

Veteran

I agree with both your interpretations wholeheartedly!!

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

And I'm often on the same wavelength as Taylor. High Five:)

I miss both your outfit posts Taylor and Jonesy.

Girl X

(website)

Veteran

I think of it less as a juxtaposition and more of an ambiguity - Annie Lennox, old school David Bowie. At first glance they could be male or female, but it's not butch or effeminate, just a blurry middle ground. And it doesn't really matter whether they were male or female, they'd be just as attractive/sexy either way.

It's not just wearing opposing or gender neutral clothing, it's surrendering the tell tale gender cues.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

That's interesting, GirlX. Your interpretation is much more hardcore than mine. This will be particularly interesting to Jonesy the Social Scientist!

Girl X

(website)

Veteran

I wonder if I'm more hardline here because (and this will be of particular interest to our social scientist!) I'm extremely comfortable with gender neutrality/fluid sexuality.

As soon as I understood the 'down there' difference between boys and girls, it made absolutely no sense to me that pants - not skirts - were the norm for boys. And boys' bicycles! Why do they make things so difficult for themselves?

mrseccentric

(website)

Veteran

Girl X said it for me! i was reading along, thinking 'yep that's fine as far as it goes........'

but here in the sf bay area you see a wide variety of gender presentations, including a fair amount of people who it's just - really hard to tell if they're a boy or a girl. soft face, no makeup, hair not too short and not too long, generally tee or sweatshirt or flannel shirt over jeans, maybe Doc Martens. clothing's fit and drape tend to obscure the figure. it's a very 'unisex' type of look. some people have more prominent secondary sex characteristics (breasts, shoulders, hips, beard, adam's apple) which make this harder or impossible to achieve. then you have people taking hormones of the opposite sex, which adds another dimension.

like you said, Angie, this is a really hardcore statement! and i don't know if people dress this way much in other areas of the world. the funny thing is that before puberty most people look this way - could be male or female in most cases, you have to tell by dress and hair. i guess some people just figure, why not continue on!

i'd be interested to see if anyone from other places see many people dressing in this way ~ ? steph

yellowgirl

Very interesting! I think in my mind, "androgynous dressing" has the same connotations that GirlX mentioned - almost gender-neutral. To me, combining masculine clothing in a feminine outfit falls under the category of "menswear style" - where there are menswear elements, but the cut, look and silhouette is still unmistakable feminine.

Jonesy

Veteran

Angie, you are too sweet! I sincerely appreciate your comments :). Taylor, nice to see you popping up here--I was just mentioning you on one of Una's threads...I too miss your WIW posts!

Re. my own WIW posts: I was sick for a while, then my photographer was out of town, then I got into serious gardening mode complete with gardening attire (which no one wants to see, believe me!). Below are a few examples of my gardening projects--I can't resist showing off my handiwork!

GirlX, thanks for chiming in! It's funny, I agree with your take about those two being androgynous, and yet still hold my opinion. A couple of things strike me: First, your post makes me realize that I think there is a distinction between an androgynous person (like both Annie Lennox and David Bowie, at least at certain points in their careers) and androgynous style. An androgynous person will usually have androgynous style, but someone with androgynous style, or elements of androgyny in their style, may or may not be an androgynous person. Does that make sense?

Second, I guess since I agree with you that they exemplify androgyny in terms of style (and person, as I'm saying above) and I agree with myself, that leads me to thinking about androgyny on a continuum, rather than a yes-no type of deal. So someone's style could be at different points along a continuum, with different degrees or a different rough ratio of masculine to feminine.

ETA: Thanks for chiming in, MrsE and Yellowgirl! I was typing when you were replying!

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Scarlet

Veteran

Ha, this word as been on my mind this week too. Actually I was surprised when you listed your style as androgynous because it would never have occurred to me to describe your style that way. I think of androgynous as menswear on a woman--like a tuxedo on a woman or schoolboy clothes (a la Alexa Chung) for example. It doesn't have to be a head-to-toe look, though. It could be just a component (again see Alexa Chung).
More specifically, I consider my recent WIW with a plaid shirt, jeans, and flat oxfords to be somewhat androgynous due to the elements and also their cut--pretty straight, so not emphasizing my feminine shape. Another recent WIW of mine with a blazer, t-shirt, jeans, and sneakers is not androgynous to me because the jeans and blazer have a feminine cut (nipped in at the waist and thighs/knees, respectively), but someone's suggestion of swapping out the T for an oxford button-down would give it more of an androgynous vibe. Maybe I think of androgynous more the way Angie describes butch style. Who knows where I came up with this from.

Scarlet

Veteran

Come to think of it, I guess my interpretation doesn't make sense because androgynous should be a mixing of feminine and masculine elements by definition. I think I have been brain-washed by fashion mags.

On a separate note I was surprised to read you do not consider your style to be feminine.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Scarlet, I so enjoy your musings. You be would fun to have tea with

Jonesy! Where do I begin! Sorry that you were ill, and hope that all is better now. Your green thumbs are KILLER. Love your green handiwork!

And you took the words right out of mouth as I was *just* going to say exactly the same thing - for me, there is also a distinction between an androgynous person (like both Annie Lennox and David Bowie) and androgynous style.

I see "androgynous style" as a fashion construct and not a social construct. Does that make sense? Things are even more blurred (no pun intended), when an androgynous person has androgynous style.

Steph - mrseccentric, I see a lot of the type of style you are describing close to wear I live. It's very uni-sex.

catgirl

Veteran

I like both Girl X's and Jonesy's definitions! I think of androgynous as either a mix of traditionally masculine and feminine clothing, OR ambiguous presentation of self (like Annie Lennox). The persona of the wearer is, to me, an element of the look. So a tuxedo on k.d. lang (my girl-crush) is very different than a tuxedo on Cindy Crawford (anyone remember that Vanity Fair photoshoot?).

I'd distinguish all of this from butch or femme dressing.

Jonesy

Veteran

So interesting! This thread is much more fun and interesting than what I *should* be working on right now :).

Scarlet, yes I am sort of a literalist when it comes to words, so the andro (male) and the gyn (female) combined in the word automatically makes me think of these two elements in combination, but I think your take is very common, even the norm maybe--lots of different perceptions about this, I'm guessing. Re. my style as not feminine: hmmm...complicated....I tend to think of "feminine" as a set of characteristics that are used to stereotype women and how we should behave...I don't see myself or my style as reflecting these stereotypes, so I don't embrace that term. I might wear feminine elements, in combination with other pieces, but I would not describe my overall style, or self-presentation, as feminine. I know that other people have different interpretations of the word feminine, but that's mine. Don't know if that makes sense...

Angie, jinx again! My gardening is coming along, which makes me happy. I am determined to post more WIWs soon-ish :).

Una, yes, I agree that the person and the style are hard to separate. I guess certain aspects of how I look as a person (large/tall, big hands, etc.) and how I behave (analytical, decisive, strong personality, etc.) automatically make me feel more androgynous. For example, if I wear a pencil skirt and some heels, I still don't feel very feminine, just because of who I am. So, I think these two things (presentation of self and style) are frequently intertwined, yet distinct. And yes, I do remember that photo shoot with k.d. and Cindy :).

RoseandJoan

Veteran

Great post Jonesy, I think more in terms of androgynous pieces rather than an overall style, for example the menswear inspired pinstripe suit jacket, with broad shoulders but a super nipped in waist or the traditional brogue which highlights a slender ankle. The masculine elements draw attention to the feminine in my opinion rather than one area neutralising the other.

Aida

Veteran

Ooh this is a great discussion! Jonesy I like your idea of this being something that exists along a continuum. My thinking is along the lines of Girl X, but the more I think of examples the more I can see that there are varying degrees this can take; I wasn't even considering personalities because I think a lot of one's personality comes across in their style. Plus, the very idea that androgynous style can apply to either gender implies that it needs elements from both sides; the literal language interpretation then makes a lot of sense.

Polly (thunalata)

Veteran

Oh interesting... I think I'd definitely fall into assuming androgynous style and androgynous people were the same thing... Oh dear, more preconceptions to challenge! I need to do a bit of struggling with 'feminine' too as, Jonesy, I'd call you feminine but now realise that you might not take that as a compliment! I suppose I see one's style as being a celebration of what one is and if one is a woman then feminine is part of that.

(You have to remember reading that that 1. I don't have feminine as one of my '5'; 2. I am not the most cogent thinker at the best of times anyway 3. It is late in the UK so I'm not at the best of times and 4. I love this sort of discussion and will think over what you've said and probably change my views several times in the next week)

ETA love the gardening pics! I'm fighting with an overenthusiastic young dog whose favourite game at the moment is digging up my newest and most tenderly nurtured plants...

Jonesy

Veteran

Thanks for chiming in, Julie, Aida, and Polly! Yes, there is definitely a yin and yang thing with androgyny and androgynous elements, as you both point out.

Polly, I certainly wouldn't be offended if you referred to me as feminine :). Not at all! I totally get that people's perceptions vary about these sorts of terms...For a lot of people, I think, womanly or "of a woman" = feminine.

I truly empathize about the young doggie with bad habits--our pooch was a serious digger until recently, and we've had to fence off different areas in our backyard that have lilac and butterfly bushes, because he looooves to chew up the branches in the spring, before they get any leaves on them. He is a rascal--good thing he's so cute!

Heather

Veteran

I agree with you, Jonesy. Completely.

ETA: Can you come work you magic in my arid yard?

Girl X

(website)

Veteran

Jonesy, I'm with you about the broad spectrum of androgyny, and the distinction between being an androgynous person and having androgynous style. If we go back to my previous examples, even in a snug T-shirt that totally shows off her boobs, or in heels and a ball gown, Annie Lennox is still pretty androgynous - that's just her. But David Bowie in a suit and tie is unquestionably masculine, the androgynous style is something he can put on and take off, to whatever degree he desires.

When I see your WIWs, I would never sum up your look with the word 'androgynous', but I couldn't successfully describe your look without using androgynous as part of the summary. So, we may view it differently in theory, but I think we'd probably recognise it visually in a similar fashion

Your garden looks lovely!

Mamapicklejuice

Veteran

My moto has a big ruffle down the front...if I paired it with a pencil skirt, is that still androgynous?

I have shied away from androgyny because I don't consider my overall style to be feminine enough to balance out the masculine elements. My church capsule, sure, that's very ladylike...but my daily wardrobe is much less feminine.

cheryle (Dianthus)

(website)

Veteran

I'm not sure that I would actually describe David Bowie as androgynous. He had a very effeminate phase and an androgynous phase and a preppy phase...but none of the styles he adopted defined him as a person. I think his style was androgynous for a period of time but he is more of a chameleon than a type.

I too think of androgyny as a blurring of the boundaries between male and female. I would consider the more tailored style to be menswear-inspired rather than androgynous and androgyny to be about more than what one wears. I suspect that some of the differences in interpretation could be regional and perhaps even generational.

Kate

Veteran

The social science grad student is reading with great interest! So many different things to consider!

I just babysat this afternoon, and wore bermuda shorts, a short sleeved t-shirt, sandals, and little jewelry. The baby's mom was wearing the same. If I hadn't been babysitting, I probably would have worn a skirt and earrings, and possibly a necklace. On the one hand taking care of the children is often seen as a feminine task, and so hanging out with a baby is likely the most the feminine thing I'll do all week, except maybe cook my own food. But I decidedly dressed less feminine so that I could feel more comfortable crawling on the floor with the baby, not have to worry about my earrings being yanked on or my necklace caught in a death grip, and so that the parents won't ever have reason to think that my outfit will limit my ability to be an awesome babysitter (the parents are social scientists too!). I wouldn't have thought to call this a more androgynous outfit, and I certainly wasn't going for any gender ambiguity.

It also creates an interesting juxtaposition between my dress/skirt outfits and my pants outfits. In the summer I wear lots of skirts/dresses and few layers. In the winter I wear lots of pants and blazers/jackets. Neither makes me feel more or less feminine, but the pants and blazers are arguably more androgynous, though still figure flattering.

Ultimately, it just isn't something I consider much in my own style, and I'm happy to let other people define it how they want. As a social scientist I can just sit back and observe! Words have so much meaning, and yet with style there are so many different interpretations. In general, I'm cautious to assign words to someone else's style out of fear that our different interpretations could offend them. I think the only time I would call someone's style androgynous would be if it was very clearly what they were going for, such as Annie Lennox or David Bowie.

tarzy

Veteran

Very interesting discussion. To me, androgynous means there's no obvious dominant gender. It's a blurring.

But in terms of fashion - a woman in a suit is a completely different thing. She could be very butch, or she could be very feminine. Depends on the wearer. Same with a man in a dress.

So then - "unisex" means both genders can wear something (like a jumpsuit) but they would still look like their own gender?

Jonesy

Veteran

More fascinating thoughts! Thanks for chiming in! It seems like the blurring gender boundaries definition has lots of adherents :). Here are some pics I found that, to my eye, show outfits that combine more masculine elements with more feminine ones, and can thus be described as androgynous style. But for some of you, maybe these are just outfits with a menswear element? Or something along those lines?

This is a woman in denim coveralls (very straight cut, like a mechanic would wear) paired with high heels:
http://www.madewell.com/madewe...../39802.jsp

Lacey peach top with skinny olive green pants and a fedora:
http://www.madewell.com/madewe...../46169.jsp

Plaid shirt they call a "boyshirt" paired with a silk skirt, a t-shirt, and a fedora:
http://www.madewell.com/madewe...../43908.jsp

Floral mini-dress paired with an olive green cargo jacket in a boxy cut:
http://www.urbanoutfitters.com.....oductSize=

Levi's classic trucker jacket paired with a floral skirt and t-shirt:
http://www.urbanoutfitters.com.....oductSize=

sarah

Veteran

I'm late to this thread, but I wouldn't call those outfits 'androgynous'. Rather, as you suggest, I see them as combining masculine and feminine elements. But I suppose we're getting into semantics here, which isn't always fruitful. The main point for me is that I do like the juxtaposition.

Your garden looks great! We re-landscaped our front yard into a woodland garden this spring, and as a result, I've had no energy left over for even a single pot of annuals! Maybe you'll inspire me to throw some together over the long weekend.

rae

(website)

Veteran

Man, I'm so upset to be so late to this thread!

I consider androgyny the same as Girl X and Tarzy do. I've always heard the term "androgyne" used to describe a person who feels that they are neither wholly male nor wholly female, so I think of "androgyny" as the projection of the internal feeling of being *between* genders, agendered, unixex, et cetera. I would describe an androgynous look as one that obscures or confuses gender. If gender were a sliding scale, then "androgyne" would be smack in the middle.

Following this line of thinking, "butch" would be a look expresses the internal feeling of being further on the masculine side of the scale, and that look would be designed to highlight the more masculine features of a butch woman's body.

The term "tomboy," however, has never been expressed to me as a term involved in gender identity issues. As far as I'm aware, a "tomboy" is simply a girl who enjoys activities typically associated with boys. A tomboy look would therefore project a woman's appreciation of a certain (noisy/rough/crude) lifestyle - the look is *not* designed to obscure gender; it merely appropriates masculine signifiers for use in overall feminine outfits.

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