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Toxic Family Relationships

rae

(website)

Veteran

I hope it is okay to post here even though I have been scarce on the forum lately...

Some of you may remember that I recently cut my mom out of my life for about 2 years and did not have her at my wedding. Since then, she has respected my boundaries and I have gradually started having a relationship with her again, on a more limited basis.

She is still nice to me, but she treats my sister terribly, and I feel bad that my sister now gets 100% of all her ill-will. She demands money from her, she shames and guilts her for not providing money, she tries to make her feel bad about us visiting our father... the big drama today was that my sister's friend passed away, and instead of acknowledging the death at all, my mom used the phone call as an opportunity to badmouth my dad. I just feel like she has become a pretty terrible person and, even though she behaves herself with me, I find it hard to carry on having polite conversations with someone I don't... like.

Have any of you cut family members out of your life like this? Is it unfair to cut her out for what she does to someone else, when she does not treat me the same way? I am straining to figure out what I get out of the relationship that is positive...

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41 replies

Latest reply was from rae

anne

Veteran

Oh course it is ok to post. What a horrible situation. I have no advice, experience or wisdom just now. but I do have sympathy.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

I think boundaries are appropriate and necessary when dealing with family members that are this toxic. I am sad that your mother is displaying this type of behaviour, and am happy that your sister has your support if she needs it.

Has your mom displayed this behaviour your entire life? I hesitate to jump to a diagnosis based on your short clip, but the psychiatrist inside me is balking at the bit here ...

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

You cut her out for X time, gradually let her back in but it doesn't look good now.

rae

(website)

Veteran

Lyn, yes, unfortunately she has a long history of guilt trips and dad-bashing. And what I now would probably characterize as verbal abuse toward all of us. I can tell she really wants sympathy and to be viewed as a martyr, and she can really lash out when she does not get her desired responses. Seems much more frequent since the divorce. She refuses to acknowledge that she has a problem, much less get help for it. :T

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Rae, I have no real advice. This is such a painful and tricky situation.

There is a (very old) self-help book that might actually be helpful -- it's called The Dance of Anger. If you've never seen it, it might be worth a look, because she talks a lot about triangulation in families (or attempts to triangulate) and how one can set boundaries assertively and not aggressively. Of course you can never predict how someone else will react -- and sometimes they won't react well. But at least if you feel you've done your best, that leaves you in greater peace.

Another book that might be useful is called Crucial Conversations.

Sveta

(website)

Veteran

I don't have an experience for situation like this but this is what I learned: life is too short to spend it on people which make you unhappy -in any capacity. Blood relationship does not excuse toxic behavior and does not guarantee love if a person does not deserve it. I hope you don't feel guilt because of this because guilt is a very bad and self-destructive feeling: please don't! If you need to do something help your sister to get out of this toxic relationship.

Jenava

(website)

Veteran

Rae, I'm so sorry about your relationship with your mom. It sounds like she's got a mental health problem that she's not getting help for. I'd say you need to do whatever you have to in order to stay healthy yourself, so don't feel the need whatsoever to take on any guilt or responsibility for anyone else's feelings! I do wonder why you sis hasn't cut her off as well. )-:

LACeleste

Veteran

I'm sorry Rae. Personality disorders are tough.

I wish I could give you good advice. My motto for dealing with difficult people is "Disengage, do not enrage." but I am a non-confrontational super wimp.

You have my support.

lyn*

(website)

Veteran

This is a book we sometimes recommend to family members: Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason.

I don't know if your mom has BPD, but a lot of the behaviours that you describe are consistent with someone with BPD. I know this is Wikipedia, but it gives a good overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....y_disorder

catgirl

Veteran

Another rec: "the Drama of the Gifted Child" by Alice Miller. I do not have your situation but I deal with lots of people who do in one way or another, and learning to put yourself first is crucial to your well being, whatever it takes. Do not hesitate to do what feels right for you and your sister if that is a concern also - not as punishment for your mom but as medicine for your soul to heal.

Tina

Veteran

We've had to do this. The family members were slandering and tearing down our good friends. They were lying and generally being very nasty. We rebuked them and when that brought no change, we told them we would not have anything to do with them until there was a change. That was more than 5 years ago, there has been no change we stand by our decision. It has been difficult but freeing.
Very often, the only language these people understand is isolation and reaching bottom. As long as anyone feeds their bad behavior by what they perceive as support (spending time and communicating can translate as support to them), they will keep on.

Caro in Oz

Veteran

Terrible situation rae & I have been there with my mother's brothers who felt they were entitled to treat my mother like a slave, borrow money & never repay it, & talk to her however they wanted. I just don't see them but my sister does. My sister & I just don't talk about them when we are together (that did take a while to work out). Are you able to talk to your sister about her situation & why she allows your mother to treat her that way?

I agree with Una & think we all need to protect ourselves first. "The Drama of the Gifted Child" is well worth a read imo too.

Gigi

Veteran

Rae, I am so sorry. I don't have much advice to give other than that, yes, sometimes it is necessary to cut someone out. If I were in your shoes, I would probably make an appointment with a therapist to see how to go about dealing with this situation appropriately.

Adelfa

Veteran

This sounds so incredibly painful.

Deborah

Veteran

Rae, I am sorry. Situations like this are awful. I have been watching a friend experience something similar and the decision making process has been challenging. I have not had this with family but with friendships and I decided that I needed to be in relationships that were healthy, uplifting and positive for me. Really only you can work out what is best for you.

viva

Veteran

Rae, I am so sorry for this. The fact it is your mother must make it especially difficult and painful for you. I agree that having a therapist to talk through your feelings with might be beneficial.

I have a sister I have had to stop interactions with periodically. I won't hijack and get into all the details here; suffice it to say that she can be extremely manipulative and cruel, all psychological, and I am hyper-sensitive to her stuff which doesn't help. I starting seeing a therapist when things got very bad, and she helped me accept and feel okay about suspending the relationship which I now do whenever I need to. And when I don't suspend it completely, I have real limits to how close I will get. I have to endure a certain amount of interaction because my parents (with whom I am very close) now live with her, but I have to watch myself and my interactions with sister really carefully. It's hard and causes me a lot of stress and anger. It doesn't really get better, but I find that I am a lot more comfortable pulling the plug now when I need to.

Again, I'm so sorry you are going through this with your mother and if you are not talking with someone about it, think about doing so. It really has helped me a lot.

xxxxx

crutcher

Veteran

I know this must be hard and something that takes up alot of your thoughts...Don't let it take your joy away...Somehow cutting out the situation from your thinking, allows happiness to get in...I am a believer in finding a way to get happiness into your life...As simplistic as that sounds, enjoying the NOW is where its at...
If your mom can't contribute to your happiness, then you need to move on...as hard as that is...

Anonymous

Rae -- for my own mental health, my doctor advised me to cut off all relations/interactions with immediate family members. I was aghast at the suggestion, but implemented it anyway. Everything in my personal life improved. The only bad thing that happened was the interference of well meaning friends that waned to "fix the rift" because they came from different family backgrounds and had no framework of understanding. I found that limiting discussions with them about family issues aided my recovery. Warmest wishes to you and your sister going forward.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this, Rae. It's extremely difficult. My family has someone like this too, but a big part of her issue is substance abuse. When she is in treatment, staying clean, and going to therapy regularly, the behavior issues virtually disappear, but sadly, a lapse has caused the issues to come roaring back. As a result, some of the people closest to her have had to withdraw in order to keep their own existence healthy and peaceful.

You can't fix or save your mom. I subscribe to LACeleste's motto, and limit my exposure to individuals like this. It's painful and difficult because there is a tendency to feel like we're abandoning them and not being supportive. But there's support, and then there's enabling. My heart goes out to you.

I appreciate the book suggestions. Lyn, I'll be checking out that one you mentioned in particular.

shedev

Veteran

Sorry you are going through this. I think your sister may have to pull back some too.

texstyle

(website)

Veteran

I think many people with toxic family relationships harbor a lot of guilt and societal pressure. It's easy for someone with a good family relationship to say "family is the most important thing" but it's not so easy to be on the other side. I think it's not only okay to distance yourself from certain family members, sometimes it's necessary for your own health and well being. I read that in a self help book many many years ago.

Trying to learn how to converse with a toxic family member (if you choose to do it) is an ongoing challenge I think. Even if it's only the occasional phone call, it can be very stressful. Should we feel obligated to hold our tongue when the toxic member does not?

You'd think after 50+ years it would get easy.

There is no right answer for everyone I guess.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

NOT easy.

I have no words of wisdom, Rae. In time, your heart and head will guide you to the option that feels best. Best of luck. xo

rachylou

Veteran

Well, dd comes with a lot of family with a lot of problems. I have cut many of her family members (who were originally my neighbors and whom I saw a lot of). There are times when you have to make choices and just stop interacting with people and cut your losses.

I do rather think, though, since you bring it up, that it would be good to separate yourself from your sister in your perceptions. Reacting on her behalf is, in all cruel honesty, a step removed from reality. My friend has a good line - "I can't take a pill to cure your problem." You both confront a problem when it comes to your mother, but the confrontations are separate. You aren't going to be doing anything to fix her problems with your mom by not talking to your mom. Maybe you should spend some time supporting your sister and her dealings with mom before you take the decision to cut your mom out of your own life. Just so you can be clear. I could see things not changing because it's your mom bothering your sister.

Unless, of course, your sister is underage and you have responsibility for her - and cutting your mom out of your life, cuts your mom out of hers too.

Just my two cents.

ironkurtin

Veteran

I'm sorry you and your sister are going through this, Rae. It's difficult because this is your mother, with all the emotional and logistical weight that carries. You want to love her and be loved in return, and you want her to love your sister and be loved in return. But something in the equation is broken here.

I agree you should go with your heart and with what feels right. Unfortunately you cannot change your mother or your sister. You can only change your reactions to them.

Aziraphale

Veteran

I'm so sorry to hear this, Rae. I have no advice that will solve the problem...just a suggestion. I think you're already doing the right thing. Keeping up the limited interaction with your mom is the decent thing to do (even though she sounds like a messed-up person), but I would keep the boundaries you already have in place. You could look at the odd conversation you have with her as a chore that you must do. We all have to carry on polite conversations with people we don't like -- bosses, teachers, co-workers. Diplomacy is almost always the best option. The sad thing is, it's your mom. I totally get that. My own relationship with my mom, while not as toxic as yours, was nevertheless fraught with difficulty. Mine was a martyr too, and had a filthy temper. She also had good qualities. I eventually learned to hear without listening. I'd repeat the phrase, "Like water off a duck's back" in my my head sometimes. But it didn't stop me being sad that I couldn't have a better, more honest relationship with her. Still, life hands you what it hands you, right? And it's all a wash anyway now that her mind has turned to swiss cheese.

More importantly, does your sister need some help asserting herself?

ETA I definitely did get counselling. It helped. Have you considered that?

carter

Veteran

At 50, I'm so done with toxic relationships. They are so draining. I don't have any brilliant advice except to do what feels right for you. My mother has certainly taught me that blood relationships are irrelevant. Long, long toxic relationship with my mother, starting when I was 15, and she told me she had no use for me anymore and that I needed to find another place to live. Fortunately, she had told my dad that five years before, so I did have another place to live! 10 years later, she started inching back into my life because I got married (giving her a new "son"), and I let her. Then, when I got divorced at 40, she told me that she would be keeping my ex-husband, since he was her "son" and I was just a daughter. Okie dokie. I gladly gave my ex custody of her. Good riddance! I will add that I am extremely close to my stepmom, so there's no void in the mother-daughter part of my life.

Irene

Veteran

If I were to look at it coldly, I would say you shouldn't have a relationship with someone that treats someone you love (which I assume is the case with your sister) badly, not matter how nice they are to you.

That said, this is your mom.

Whoa, I don't know. I'm not mature enough to answer to such a question, but I feel your pain. This has to be really hard.

rabbit

Veteran

Wishing you strength and centeredness as you deal with this.

I relate to what RL says about being unable to help someone by going through the suffering with them (different from empathy). At a certain point I once had an insight and instead of going on with a cycle of drama realized that by continually experiencing someone else's feelings in an attempt to empathize, offer solutions, and help them, we both felt shitty, and they never learned the skills to get out of their dark mood and despair themselves (plus it didn't work). When I stepped back and walked away and said, I love you, but those are your feelings and conclusions, not mine, best of luck, they were able to remember and use some of their own coping skills.

I think the idea of a 'mother' can be so fraught with implications. Sometimes I am only able to make peace when I consciously let go of these expectations, and look at the actual person while forgetting about the genealogy. The switch from thinking of someone as a 'mother' and instead of as an 'aunt' or even a 'niece/child', or whatever role feels right, can let go of a lot of this weight and it gives me both more distance and more compassion.

Also, I think 'found family' is crucial. It can be by far the most important thing in life and I think that's great, and it should be celebrated and acknowledged more, not just through weddings and adoptions. I remind myself of that sometimes to keep things in perspective.

TraceyLiz65

(website)

Veteran

If she can respect your boundaries, then perhaps it's time to address that she is not doing the same for sister. Pehaps you two could do this together if your sister isn't as asserive at setting the boundaries... I think you have to give it a shot before deciding whether to cut her out aloghether...

I had to cut my sister out of my life and have no regrets as she was just too toxic and lacks any insight or compassion. I allow her to come for Christmas and text her a few times a year. I tried everything to ask her if she could see her behavior as change-worthy ,but she refused to answer and just wanted to attack me. She would suck me dry and give nothing back if I allowed her to.

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