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The Frump Factor

deb

Veteran

Well, after my November revelations I am feeling quite frumpy. I think my body type, rectangle/apple, leads to a natural frump look. I also think that switching to pullover sweaters this year adds to the frumpiness. Maybe I should switch back to cardigans. Do you feel pullovers are more frumpy on your body?

Dressing

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minimalist

Veteran

Hmm, I'm trying to practice an idea a friend shared with me, that BBTs (bad body thoughts) aren't about my body, but rather indicate that something else is going on.

That said, pullovers are hard for me to get right, and my body is on the IT end of the rectangle spectrum. Deep V, scoopneck or half-zip can look good on me, but that has to work with what's underneath. Then the length has to be right, and work with the relevant bottoms. And the material makes a huge difference, of course. So many factors, with frump lurking around every corner!

Cardigans aren't an automatic win for me, either.

Clothes feeling a bit tight makes me feel frumpy, even if I technically look good. So I'm looking for options that will be comfortable and at least moderately attractive. Knit blazers, maybe? Although I'm sure there's frump risk there as well.

You know what? This is a big part of why I'm still wearing tattered swag hoodies. At least it doesn't look like I'm trying but got it wrong.

unfrumped

Veteran

Deb, I think I can relate. Not sure if cardigan is better, but you may be right since they are often somewhat shaped.. I've been doing a lot of waist- surrendering with pullovers and I feel it IS easy for me to look frumpy, depending on what's on the bottom. So, pencil skirts usually work, but trousers can be a problem. And I don't want everything to be waist-less.

MsMary

Veteran

Honestly, for me the cure for feeling frumpy is a jacket instead of a cardigan! Even if you feel like blazers are too structured or formal, you might want to try a casual lightweight utility jacket or moto jacket to give a little more structure to your look!

Debra

Veteran

Hi Deb, I Have an apple shape (hopefully a delicious) and I do tend to feel frumpy in a jumper (sweater). I usually stick to cardigans but have a couple of jumpers that I like, they are long, they drape and light weight.
I have long since passed on anything that makes me feel frumpy

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

Frumpy in what sense, I wonder: frumpy in that you're wearing a silhouette that isn't trendy? Or that the items look like you've owned them for decades? Or something else?

Sometimes I see people (not necessarily you, Deb) using frumpy as a synonym for old, or at least 'not young' - and to be honest I'm not sure how much all of us can do about that. We see all these media images of 20 year old models and actresses but all of us in real life will age (god willing) and there's no point in trying to look half your age, it just doesn't work. As I approach a landmark birthday in a couple years, I keep on looking at myself in the mirror and thinking "wow, you don't look like you used to." And I don't. And I can try to do a few things about that, but I'm never going to look like I am 25 again, and that's just the way life is.

Sorry, I went off on rather a tangent there...

Peri

Veteran

I've been evaluating this since I've purged about 20 sweaters and been looking to replace at least a few.

What is feeling wrong to me at this time is the classic sweater shape...the band around the bottom. Maybe it's that I have an apple tendency too and that coming in at the hip just accents that. I've been looking for sweaters that don't have that...that just drape down without any band. I've found a few and they feel more interesting, at least to me.

I have not found cardigans to be the answer. I actually think they read dowdy even faster.

deb

Veteran

Laura, I understand where you are coming from but my interpretation of frump is mostly unstylish or dowdy. Probably a better way to say it is, how I dressed in November is not what I felt inside nor what I wanted to project. There was not style definition to my dress.

Mo

(website)

Veteran

Hmm, not sure. I find cardis frumpy on me but pullovers more fashion forward. Perhaps it's a skinny bottom balancing the pullover that makes the difference? Maybe we are all just different in what feels frumpy on ourselves?

Suz

(website)

Veteran

I am wondering....what about imagining how you would like to look in your casual life. The sky's the limit. Forget perceived body limitations, cost, etc. Just pin some casual daytime looks you love.

And then, after getting a bit of a handle on that, maybe imagine what would be most comfortable and practical in your casual life.

Somewhere, there will be a meeting ground between those two. It might not be easy to identify at first, but it will be there. It might involve cardigans or it might not...but very likely when you find it and make an outfit like that, you will not feel frumpy.

I am wondering if identifying your body shape as like your mother's might be part of the issue here...seeing yourself in this favoured silhouette over and over, and recognizing it as one of "her" looks.

Anonymous

I like sweaters in general, and I'm kind of digging pullovers right now. I've really had to experiment with different shapes and necklines that work for me. Also I feel like they're more flattering if they have a little slouch.

I think you might be suffering from "OMG I just looked at over 30 pictures of myself and I thought I looked different/better than that". That happens to me often after I do an exercise like the one you just completed. Give your eye a little time to rest and then come back to your pictures. You might gain a little objectivity. And remember, these were primarily outfits that you wore at home! They are 100% better and more pulled together than anything I'm wearing at the moment. I don't think you look frumpy at all. You look current, creative and colorful!

Susie

Veteran

Oh the dreaded frumpy/dowdy factor; I know it well, as a rectangle/apple. But I believe that I've made a lot of improvements in my wardrobe in the past year to reduce the items that skewed toward frump.

For me, cardigans aren't the answer. I've only kept a few. One is leopard print and another is a tie dye pattern so the patterns feel less dowdy. I have 2 others that are shorter and shaped more like a jacket. For pullovers, most of mine have straight or hi/low hems rather than a banded bottom. And I agree with Mary that jackets are a good option.

Gaylene

Veteran

Thanks to Ornella's Flavia-inspired threads, I'm beginning to believe that frumpiness and boring aren't in items themselves as much as in what we pick for ourselves and how we choose to wear it. I'm also wondering if that's why we are so eager to jump on the bandwagon when we see something that looks good on someone else or in a picture; our reasoning is that, if we just get that item into our wardrobe, maybe it will magically translate transform our wardrobes so we feel fashionable instead of frumpy.

Going with my theory, maybe the problem is with the cut and drape of the type of pullovers you are currently wearing? Color can be transformative, but we sometimes forget that even the slightest nipping in at the waist which we get with a higher-priced garment can make a world of difference. My husband keeps reminding me of how good my navy J Crew peacoat looks as compared to some of the sales ones that I tried on in the shops; technically, all of the coats fit and looked presentable, but the shaping of the waist and collar on the J Crew version made a huge difference in what I saw when I looked into the mirror.; all of a sudden the blockiness of my IT shape disappeared and a more proportionate vision of myself appeared.

I'm learning that paying much closer attention to cut, fit, drape, and fabric is paying off, as is being more careful about what other components I pair together in an outfit. Just because something goes with something else doesn't mean it is necessarily the right combination for me; the same goes for buying something just because it fits, it is in fashion, and it fits my budget.

Maybe don't give up on pullovers quite yet.

deb

Veteran

Suz, my mom and I do not dress alike, I just see the body shape similarities. She is taller than I am with longer legs but carries her weight in the same areas.

Claire, you may be right. Seeing myself for 30 days in a row is quite a surprise. Maybe I just need to rest my eyes.

MsMary

Veteran

Okay, I went back and looked at your November outfits, and to my eye it's the slightly oversized v-neck pullovers that looked a tiny bit frumptastic. If it were me, I'd add a scarf for some interest around the face. That's what I do and I feel like it keeps me looking more current.

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Catnip

Veteran

Deb, let me begin by saying I don't think you look frumpy at all! I think you look terrific! We have similar body types (I think I'm an apple/rectangle) and I've been observing how you dress to get some ideas for myself.

I'm dissatisfied with how I feel in several pullovers and have been thinking about switching back to cardigans. But I'm not sure that's the solution. I think it has something to do with the length of the sweater and with what I do with the neckline. I think part of the solution, at least in my case, has to do with creating a strong vertical line and that may be easier with a cardigan.

One thing I'm absolutely sure of is that long, fluid sweaters make me look worse than frumpy, even if I'm wearing very narrow pants. They make me look like a little girl dressed up in my mother's clothes.

I refuse to believe that an apple/rectangle has to look frumpy, even though I've passed several landmark birthdays. I'm sure there's a solution here somewhere, and will be watching this conversation carefully for suggestions.

LACeleste

Veteran

Hi Deb,

I just reviewed your Month in Review. I think you look absolutely fantastic in jackets. The shot of you in the denim shirt w/ the dark jacket is terrific!

MaryK is wise about scarves making things work.

I think you look great!

dustt

Veteran

Deb I totally understand the fear of frump mindset. I look for it daily - and I'm going to agree with MaryK here. The scarf does amazing things for me. Keeps an otherwise basic pullover and skinnies from looking mechhhk on me. Works for cardis too!! I have developed an awesome scarf collection courtesy of friends & family (I've bought my own fair share too) over the last couple of years and it let's me be really creative while still keeping my wardrobe items simple and classic. My second trick is some pushed up sleeves - especially on a pullover - perhaps with a hint of contrasting color peeping out from a snug fitting tee underneath.

deb

Veteran

Mary and dustt, I like the idea of a scarf but I have had two surgeries to remove tumors in the back of my neck and scarves and necklaces irritate the scars terribly. I have to be careful with collars also.

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

Deb, thanks for your patience with my tangent I just went to look at your month in review post, and I think I can see what you mean with some of the sweaters. I think it's a proportion issue. Some of your sweaters are a bit too long, it seems like, and would look better either one size down, and the bottom pulled up a bit to be less tunic like... or a size up, to emphasize the slouchy tunic-ness.

I think the white sweater is fine, and the gray one with the cowl drawstring neck, but the blue and the black look the wrong length, and the wine one just looks too big overall.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

I am with Claire on this. While there may be elements of these outfits that you'd ultimately like to change, or you may decide you want to upgrade your at home casual style, there is nothing like an unrelieved stream of our own outfits to make us feel a little bit. Yuck.

Recall how BORED I felt about my own outfits. There is just something a bit much about looking at so many images of ourselves at once. I do think there are lessons to be learned but I plan to sleep on it a bit first.

dustt

Veteran

deb - is silk an option for those sensitive areas? -

JillG

I regularly have to remind myself of the outfit formula - color, pattern, texture, shine. Your colors are great and I saw several patterns. Perhaps add more texture to the mix?

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

I echo Claire, Gaylene and Suz 100%.

Gigi

Veteran

Hi, Deb,

I am currently reading *The Triumph of Individual Style*, which I got from the library. It has a section on large tummies. One guideline when dealing with large tummies is to consider balance. It says, "Have some part of your visual presentation be optically fuller (as in a hair style) or larger than the tummy (as in fullness at the back of the skirt). The bigger the tummy the grander the total design must be." This is actually supposed to highlight the large tummy rather than camouflage it. I am not apple shaped, so I don't know how it would work IRL.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

A lot of wisdom on this thread. I have to say what Claire said really resonated - when I first look at a set of my own pictures I almost always cringe. Later on I can see them more objectively or at least with less cringing. Cardigans are my most frump causing pieces and I have banished most of them - it is in the person and the wearing in the end.

Anonymous

I will go back and read the other's comments, but I feel most frumpy in cardigans...not enough structure. I'm enjoying pullovers, although as long as I have hot flashes, I need to be prepared to be able to take them off. That is a pain but can be ok at home.

VenusCow

(website)

I haven't seen your pics but for my money there's nothing more FRUMPY than a cardigan. Have you tried a jumper or sweater that scoops up at the front and scoops down at the back, very modern, on trend, flatters most figures and perfect over leggings with boots.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Even though I'm not much of a cardigan person, I think frump is more a product of fit, style, and compatibility with the wearer, than something inherent to a type of garment. Even mom jeans, which I find frumpy 99.9% of the time, can perhaps be made non-frumpy by the right combination of fit, styling and the person wearing them. Maybe.

For me, frump often lies in the details. Shapeless garments are definitely in the danger zone, but certain details can push something over the edge -- an old-fashioned floral print, or obviously polyester fabric, etc.

To me, a combination of unflattering, poor fit, and dated is the quickest way to look frumpy.

Vix

Veteran

Hi Deb --

Really just echoing others here; I too took a look at all your photos and think you are being quite hard on yourself -- especially given you were injured and had to wear half shoe/half medical device outfits much of the month!

After having to curb your activity during recovery, I also think it's easy to let the BBT [body bad thoughts] mentioned by Amy K creep in. For me, being sick or stressed is a trigger for BBT -- as others mentioned, try to take a break and come back to the photos and see if you're able to be more objective.

When I look at your set I see one quality Rectangles and ITs are known for: slim-hipped legginess!

Ironically that can make it tricky to balance out one's top half, and I do think a few of the tops are being bratty with the proportions. I liked what Laura said upthread:

> Some of your sweaters are a bit too long, it seems like, and would look better either one size down, and the bottom pulled up a bit to be less tunic like... or a size up, to emphasize the slouchy tunic-ness.

In general I prefer the shorter tops with the bottoms you've shown; the printed ones do a great job of keeping the eye moving across the stomach area you're worried about. That said I'm another who thinks the denim shirt/dark jacket combo is a real winner!

When you feel up to it perhaps a little more experimentation will get you looking + FEELING confident and pulled together.

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