Size inclusivity, Yes, but with caveats - YouLookFab Forum

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Size inclusivity, Yes, but with caveats

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

So I'm extra salty today, just to warn you. And this may be more than a bit disjointed.
I really like cov.er.sto.ry 's selection. Yes there's 11 Honore, which is great, but overall more traditional. I know there are indie designers that are more size inclusive, but they can be hard to track down. So more edgy independent designers in larger sizes, yay!
Intermix (now owned by GAP) is a trendy resource, not size inclusive.
Forward (FWRD), same.
Also FYI, XL is often a size 10 or 12 US in many lines.
Universal Standard got a not insignificant amount of flack for increasing their size range downwards. Because at one point it was nice to get "cool" clothes that were exclusive to larger sizes. Personally I think they lost their edge, but that's another topic.
Yeah so, CoverStory, they start at a size 10 end around 26 US. Two things, firstly there are so many fricking designers that cater to the 10 and less. In fact for many designers that is the the top of the range. Secondly, yes there is a lacking in the size 26 and up, unfortunately this isn't in my wheelhouse, but yes it is lacking. So I won't be commenting on that.
I really really like these pants,
https://coverstorynyc.com/coll.....0962181534
Similar to Nili Lotan and Rachel Comey. Nili Lotan is NOT size inclusive, Rachel Comes is hit or miss. But the line As Ever, on their website, does not include larger sizes, yes I looked. Hmmm, go figure.
But also interestingly, here's the thing. Both Nili Lotan and Rachel Comey are doing limited lines with Target this fall. Which are size inclusive. So uh, yeah $$$$ speak; however also both lines make a big deal about being made in NYC (and I'm a big Rachel Comey fan)
https://www.refinery29.com/en-.....ction-2021
I could make all sorts of comments about it's ok for down market stuff to be size inclusive, but quelle horreur, their actual mainline...

ETA to sum it up, I don't have a lot a sympathy to those sized out (down) of this website

ETA 2: I’m hugely in favor of CoverStory and hope they expand, and also maybe some of the lines realize they can offer extended sizing on their own sites.

Shopping

68 replies

Latest reply was from Angie

rachylou

Veteran

So… a Yes for Cover Story?

Bijou

Veteran

Anna, unfortunately this situation is also true in Australia. It is very hard to find high quality plus size fashion (don't even try to add fashion forward into the mix) in Australia too.

I love how Angie highlights this issue and provides great support to those few retailers who do get it right.

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

Yes, definitely a yes
Like I said I was a salty and disjointed

SW Ann

Veteran

Thank you for that salt...goes great with my margarita! When going above a size 10 is size inclusive....they need a new dictionary.

Jenn

(website)

Veteran

Right with you. I think people upset that a retailer like this doesn’t carry smaller sizes really have no concept of how often someone at size 16 or 18 runs into a size barrier, much less a size 26 or above. I wear around an 18 and I would guess that about 1 in 10 online stores I visit carries my size.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Anna, I agree with every word, and enjoyed the salt! I also liked the sugar for Cover Story, and hope you try those fab pants

With all my heart, I want there to be high quality, better, fab and interesting merchandise for the sizes that miss out.

Bijou, thank you for the shout out.

Nadya

Veteran

+1 to all this Anna. And totally agree that Universal Standard has lost their edge. I hope that post pandemic they bring back more of their creativity and high but wearable style.

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

I like those pants, Anna, and can see you rocking them.

I appreciate reading your thoughts. I like your discerning eye and your astute observations on who's offering what styles at what prices and for whom.

Sloper

Veteran

Amen my friend.

I keep going to back to check out Nili Lotan - always to no avail.
Isn't that insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I think Dries Van Noten got some sh*t a few years ago for making a comment about how larger women wouldn't reflect his style - thus he didn't make larger sizes.

And I well remember a 2010 profile of then J. Crew CEO Mickey Drexler and his not so inclusive comments:

A saleswoman said, “We should have more relaxed-fit merchandise.” “We’re not going there,” Drexler said.

(A customer commented), “I had issues with suiting, because I have a full balcony,” the woman said. “My proportions are different.” “Everyone has different proportions,” Drexler said. “That’s life in America.”

https://www.newyorker.com/maga.....e-merchant

How things have changed in 11 years! Seems like J.Crew is trying.

N

I agree completely...I have been rather surprised recently that US10 is XL and that's where most brands stop. I do fit into those sizes but I've been wondering why they stop there. The majority of brands only carry these sizes nowadays and its pretty shocking to me. I'm delighted to see brands that cater to larger sizes and I don't feel excluded in the slightest that they don't cater to me. There are far too many that already do.

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

I hear you about lower quality on higher sizes. Did not realize Universal Standard had reduced their size range. Sad and also surprising because I thought that was their whole schtick—good quality stuff anyone (hence “universal”) could wear. My irritation with this company isn’t pity for people who are sized out—as you said, there are plenty of size 6-10 (US) clothes available. My gripe is splitting us up into different camps & making us run from one set of shops to another at all. Where ever the cusp is, it’s a problem.

I wish we didn’t have to think of ourselves as whole different animals when we go up in down in sizes over our lifetimes, or even that it could be feasible to go shopping with a friend or sister who’s in a different size range. I have one sister who’s a 00 or 0 and another who wears 16-20, depending on item. For a while I could go with one, now I could go with the other. But the 3 of us together? Not possible. And I’ve been the same person all along.

When I gained weight, I recall not being able to fit into a single thing at a shop, wearing the largest sizes at others, and having this conversation:
Me: Could you get me a larger size please?
SA: we don’t have another size.
Me (sadly): really?
SA: well, you could look in the women’s dept.
Me (brightening): cool, because I really like it
SA: well, you do need the larger size. But I can’t tell you if they (nodding at the Elephant Graveyard*) have this item in those sizes.
I truly didn’t know where I would look if I continued to grow. It’s a hassle to come up with places that carry what you like to begin with. Needing to rework that, at any point—pick a random number for the cusp, because they did—is not something anyone needs. When my son’s feet got past a certain size, we had to find different shoe stores. We had awful afternoon at the mall, going from one to the next—he was too big here, too small there. Ugh. But it was once in his life, and there are legit differences between kids and adults. Neither of those are true of clothing size differences for adult women. Many dance on the cusp for decades.

That’s why I’d like to see actual inclusivity, not just “your turn to see how it feels :p” by moving that break point of who gets sized out. (smallish people don’t really see how it feels anyway, because they have other options). I’m arguing against the breakpoint where ever it occurs. Once you have that cusp, and push women into different shops for their “other” sizes (can you imagine if we did this for a color???), it’s a problem.

Ps. Thanks for mentioning the collabs at Target this fall—when my sister gets out of the hospital, likely several weeks after her surgery, she’ll probably need dresses that don’t touch her belly for a while. I may look for something for her in those collections.

*Lion King reference—spooky, foreboding spot

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Not too salty at all, and I agree with basically everything you said. There are specialty shops for all sorts of categories and styles, why not a certain size range? Especially one that is sorely under-represented. I think a lot of designers are guilty of the "old" way of thinking about sizes and carry stereotypes that thankfully Gen Z seems to be busting.

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

Shevia, specialty shops for certain sizes isn’t a new thing at all. That is the current system. It has reigned for a long time. It sure would be nice to see manufacturers and sellers do something to change that. This moves that awkward point when you sometimes need to go to this store/dept, sometimes to that one, but it doesn’t get rid of it. It’s still “these sizes here, those sizes there, and it’s up to you to figure out which to go to right now for that particular item”.

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

Just agreeing with what Anna and Jenn have already said.
Also wanted to comment that size inclusivity, while sounding great from a shopping perspective, can be a nightmare from a manufacturing perspective. You can't just take a pattern drafted or draped for a standard size (8 was what we used when I was in school), and size it all the way down to 00, and all the way up to 26 or higher. You're going to have to redesign that pattern at a certain point going down to adjust the fit, as well as going up. For a really inclusive line, that means you are going to have to make the pattern maybe 4 different times. Sothebreaking point between sizes is still there, even if it is within the same shop- it happens where the redesign of the pattern is to adjust for sizing. This may even affect the way the garments need to be sewn or embellished, so now they have to be constructed on a separate assembly line. You also may have garments which take up twice the amounts of fabric or different sized zippers or buttons needed, etc. All of this affects cost, so now you have to decide if you have a break point in pricing or let everyone carry the cost of the larger sizes.
It's no wonder that most companies choose not to do this.

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

Chewy, I think we all know and agree that the way clothing above a certain size is hard to find is bad. Can’t imagine anyone arguing there need to be more options in smaller sizes, given what’s out there. That’s a straw man.

Thanks for explaining that patterns have to be reworked at certain points. Still, I don’t see why that isn’t just standard practice.

On pricing: I see what you mean about more fabric for larger sizes. Is there anything about smaller sizes that makes them expensive to produce, maybe the effort needed to fit things into a smaller space?

kkards

Veteran

Just chiming in to say that i appreciate and support that Cover Story is targeted at, and carrries a limited size range. I hope that my comment about another retailer who carries extended sizes was not construed as my believing that was the only, or the right way, to do it. I was just trying to provide additional information about a prior comment.

Preppy Pear

Veteran

I wore “plus-sizes” for most of my 20s and it was so hard to find anything at any price point that I liked- I remember being shut out of most stores and brands. I really do appreciate the luxury of being a mostly “straight” size now. I guess I just want to say that I agree with your salt, and that there still is a long way to go. There are some more options, sure, but not enough and too much of the industry clings to the idea that anyone over a size 10 should fall down in gratitude that anyone would deign to design for them.

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

Kkards, makes sense that you’d agree with your industry. If it was a question for geographers, I’d probably do the same.
If we have to have “cusps” and breaks because of different patterns, I guess it’s better to have them at different spots on the size continuum. But what I’d really like to see is more like the first pic here, or at least like the other two pairs (but in clothing with more coverage too. Last pair of photos are from a site for sexy lingerie.) These probably do involve different patterns, but the effect for the consumer is one item available across a wide range of sizes.

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Vildy

Veteran

a brand to look into for jeans? From a Telegraph article which requires a sign in:

"Swedish label Asket wants to change that, with a very different approach to denim: one that offers women 54 different size options for its £115 Standard jeans, which launch today as part of its debut womenswear offering.

As well as the traditional waist measurement (sizes 23 to 34), Asket also offers three different inseam lengths (30, 32 and 34) and two different build options (straight or curvy). The result is 54 potential size combinations "

Granted, their clothing is in no way edgy.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

I always like seeing salty Anna chime in. You make good points all around. Yeah, the fashion world is largely built around a size 0 figure and hasn’t really changed much from that — look at 99% of runway shows and designer look books — so true size inclusiveness has a long way to go.

I will be interested to see the Target collabs.

Ginger

Veteran

I appreciate this, Anna! Thank you.

I thought Chrizzle on the blog post also made a very good point about the "gray area" sizes.

Anonymous

Completely agree with both of your closing statements!

I'm thinking it might be a good sign that a company is offering great styling to larger sizes if smaller sizes are annoyed at being left out

MsMary

Veteran

Agree with all of this, especially no (salty) tears for those sized out at the small end. And those pants are FAB!!

Stagiaire Fash

Veteran

MsMary, hahaha at salty tears for those sizes out at the small end

slim cat

Veteran

As one at the smaller side - no tears whatsoever . Glad there will be more opportunities for everyone!
Kinda like the idea of separate shops with sizes 10-26 or something like that.
Alternatively like the idea of petite/super small sizes for tiny ladies that don’t want to dress in kids clothes. I would check it out as well ( more as inspiration- all those beautiful pieces are out of reach for me which is ok ).

Anonymous

A friend of mine has opened a size inclusive shop here in Wpg - and carries only those brands that sell from XS to 5X - or those that she can duplicate from the lower or higher size range, if you know what I mean . Her business is thriving . She posts photos using two fit models - each woman wearing the same outfit . It’s quite interesting to see her success in this untapped market . She can’t keep up with the demand for the higher size range at the moment .

Jenn

(website)

Veteran

Vildy, a size 34 in denim is a US 16 or 18 depending on manufacturer, so Asket might not be quite as size inclusive as the marketing would indicate.

Anna, I went straight to those pants when I was browsing too, but decided I wasn't hip enough for them. It's a treat to find anything both fashion-forward and not-cheaply-made in my size, though. You're so right that it seems like the thing to do is to make plus sizes only in budget lines (which tells you it can be done at a reasonable cost, so...)

Jonesy

Veteran

I 100% agree with your sentiments, Anna! It's truly bizarre that this is the state of things in 2021!! It shows how prejudice and discriminatory attitudes can actually trump the desire for profit (given the untapped market), IYKWIM.

P.S. I too loved those pants! Jenn, you are absolutely hip enough for them :)! LisaP, yay for your friend's shop!

Gaylene

Veteran

I could make all sorts of comments about it's ok for down market stuff to be size inclusive, but quelle horreur, their actual mainline...

Yes, yes, and yes! Makes me wonder if a size 4 person would be content in a sized-down garment which was originally designed for a size 20? Or if that same size 4 would be delighted if she was expected to get her designer fix from Target instead of from a designer’s mainline. Yet, we expect a plus sized woman to be grateful in those same circumstances?

Maybe more salty language, instead of polite recriminations, is needed…

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