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Shiny's excellent question

April

Veteran

Shiny has posed an important question on Angie's outfit thread.
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I don't feel responsible ordering anything other than essentials, which clothes are not right now. I have enough -- though DH wishes he had more PJ's now that he's WFH so do I order him some? I think not. As every person delivering anything is putting themselves at risk and we can just wash his PJ's more often? What do you think?

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My guess is that delivery people feel differently about this and that it somewhat depends on what steps their various employers are taking to keep them safe.

Here's what I am going to do today. I am going to leave notes for my postal carrier -- Joel! So happy I know his name! -- my UPS person, and my Fed Ex person and ask them how they feel about it.

If they feel unsafe, it's time for we the consumers to contact their employers and urge them to do better.

General

33 replies

Latest reply was from LaPed

Preppy Pear

Veteran

This is tough. I have wanted to support those shops who are still paying their retail workers while stores are closed. I do think the risk in package delivery itself is low - but not sure what precautions are being taken at sorting/loading facilities.

I have ordered a few things I planned to order anyway, but none of it is essentials because I don’t need anything.

Christina F.

Veteran

I feel torn about this because I am not sure what risks people are taking, and I am very cognizant that this crisis is exposing a massive class divide between people who have jobs that enable them to stay home and people who don't, and have no choice but to work. They can neither afford to get sick nor afford to take off work.

On the other hand, the economy is hurting right now, and I don't want to completely withdraw all my capital from it, since my husband and I do both have safe jobs. Our economy is largely built on us wanting non-essential items, after all.

Anonymous

Yes to that Christina! It's exposing a big technology divide too. In my area internet is very expensive, and many people don't have it, or computer skills at all. With everything being online now, it really leaves people out that were already struggling.

notsaf

Veteran

An important question. I’m favoring shopping local with drop off and trying to avoid unnecessary deliveries now that we’re on lock down. But I live in a city where there may be more options (like having the butcher and wine shop bring things by).

This article in the NYTimes is sobering: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0.....rkers.html.

Helena

Veteran

I think Christina summarized the dilemma very well. I love your idea of asking your delivery people what their opinion is! One good thing is that they often work as individuals or in pairs, except I guess when the truck is loaded, so there is a certain amount of social distancing built into the job, I'd say ....

Toban

Veteran

I thanked our mail person from a distance on my walk yesterday and received a big smile, wave, and a “you’re welcome”. My husband works for a small bike company that remains open (considered essential under transportation/distribution categories) and they’re happy to send out their products ... only 6 people in a large warehouse space so safe practices can be done. I’ve received some emails saying they’re still shipping but not expedited and because they’ve reduced staff (to maintain safe distancing) orders are going out slower than normal. I weigh these against also feeling a responsibility (because I am not being financially impacted) to keep money flowing in the economy by keeping to close to my normal purchasing patterns. It’s complicated and I suspect we’ll all come to different conclusions on what we are comfortable with. Most importantly we need to be patient and considerate.

Peri

Veteran

I'll be interested to hear what they say. I have wondered about ordering, and yet stores are closed, so ordering things is one way to keep money in the economy. And if orders skid to a super low, are companies like UPS, etc, going to continue to pay people? If those companies don't pay people sick leave, they probably aren't going to pay them during a work slow down. I'm afraid this issue is as unclear as everything else is.

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

I posted a similar question and still haven’t decided what I think. I’ve worked in retail long enough that I doubt that most warehouses and shipping companies are doing enough to keep their workers safe. And news reports seem to be agreeing with me. For now, I’m not ordering anything unless I literally can’t live without it.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

April, let us know what Joel says. Good idea.

This is VERY hard. I'm nodding along with everything ChristinaF and Preppy Pear said.

rachylou

Veteran

Well, as a person in a small but essential business, mail order is what’s keeping us alive right now... and we’ve already laid off people... and it’s only been a week. Unemployment insurance is really not a given from what I’ve been hearing. The automatic denial system is still in place. Getting those disaster loans is the typical nightmare you’d expect. So I’m leaning ordering... companies may survive, but there are already lots of employee casualties. If the economy stops, that literally would mean no food on the table and rotting in the fields. Our mail order is alive right now because we do food for those with coeliac disease... and when people couldn’t get regular bread, they wiped out the GF aisle. My thoughts are buy time by buying mail order...

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

Here’s the other related thread:
https://youlookfab.com/welookf.....-right-now
And another with links about issues at Nordstrom warehouses and the delivery services: https://youlookfab.com/welookf.....eel-abused

Joy

Veteran

After reading notsaf’s NYT’s article, I am not ordering anything.

Christina F.

Veteran

I am less likely to order after that NYT article, too. I can always save my capital for when things reopen, of course.

Runcarla

Veteran

DS#2 works at an industrial bakery, and has just had his hours reduced to part-time, because they shut down one of their lines. The reason for the line shut down, was because the worker’s are in close proximity along the line and could not observe the proper spacing for social distancing. It was a labour intensive line. The other lines are okay, because they make a plainer product and worker’s are spaced farther apart. He says someone from H&S taped orange ‘X’s’ on the lunch room tables
and those are the only places folks can sit at during their breaks.

At the grocery store today, there was a security guard controlling how many people could go inside the store. He was enforcing hand sanitizer use and wiping down carts. Store hours are 8-9 for seniors (65+) There are signs on Covid-19 etiquette, and advising that cashiers are rotating out every 60 min for hand washing and a break. Carts were lined up with 6 feet between, and then individually directed to an available cashier when the previous customer had departed.

I witnessed a white haired floor manager advising a big teenaged guy stocking shelves ‘take your breaks and don’t burn yourself out, I need you!’

DH and I went at 9:00 (we are 59 and 62) and got everything on our grocery list except maple syrup and chocolate! Lots of signs restricting items to 2 per household. If you like pork or fish, you are okay.

When we left (it took us an hour and a half vs 1 hour) folks were qeued up with their carts to get inside. I think we are good for the next 10 days...

taylor

Veteran

I bet delivery people are happy to be working, many are not. My UPS guy doesn’t come in, shake my hand , or hug me. Not everyone has the luxury of working from home. People are seeing their income completely disappearing. It is a very real desperate situation for some.

I actually wish there was more delivery things set up. I even told my 86 yr. old dad to have his groceries delivered if he could , along with any medication, what ever he could get . I’m not going to stop buying on line either, people should carry on within their homes without feeling guilty. I don’t feel it’s irresponsible...I think it helps propel this economy

Mail order is a life saver for many. I think we all have enough to worry about.

Sal

Veteran

Most businesses here are shutting tonight - so online shopping is not possible except for essentials, and I guess for home based businesses.

Courier drivers here are mostly owner/operators who work damn hard and do a great job. Delivery protocols are in place. I won't have anything much to buy or get delivered but I would definitely do so if I wanted to unless the Pandemic escalates to a new level.

I suspect that one outcome of this situation is that our shopping may become more local.

April

Veteran

Feedback from the front: none as of yet.

Joel brought the mail early today (no schoolbuses on roads makes his traffic situation a bit simpler) so I hadn't put my letter to him in the mailbox yet when he came, and we had no UPS or Fed Ex deliveries today, so no chance to get answers.

If you'd like to know exactly what my notes say, here's the text:

------------------
Hello to our Fed Ex Delivery Person Whose Name I Should
Know But Don’t –

Please let us know if Fed Ex is doing a good enough
job to keep workers safe during this crisis.
The public relies so much on delivery right now, but it’s terrible to
think we might be putting our valued delivery people at greater risk by
ordering things through Fed Ex. Also
please do let me know your name, and if you are our regular person.

Happy to insist they do a better job if it would be
helpful. (And don’t worry – I would never
tell them you said anything.)

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Joel's note was slightly different because I happen to have a relative who was a postal worker for many years and thus I know that the USPS is not a particularly kind employer, but this is the basic idea.

Will report more about the responses as they trickle in. (And yes, if you're wondering, I did include a gratuity with each letter. Either the same or more than we do for Christmas.)

Gigi

Veteran

April, great idea. I am very interested in know the outcome of what the drivers say.

As others have mentioned, the situation is very difficult. Withhold online orders, and people might go under permanently. Online shopping is keeping many people afloat and buying time until the economy can get back on its feet. But those same online orders put many people at risk (order fulfillment, delivery) when their employers do not take proper precautions to keep them healthy. There are certainly no easy answers.

Jessikams

(website)

Veteran

It's a great question! US military mail and diplomatic mail have been completely suspended in China for months already. Even for those of you in less-impacted regions, fewer flights will mean much less available transport space for mail - therefore I would think this is a good time to keep it to "essentials only.'

Bijou

Veteran

I have left a note for the postal worker to knock and leave the parcel at the door. Retail is really hurting and so helping keep the economy ticking over is good for all of us.

April

Veteran

Yes, like most things, this is not simple. I actually have a brother who flies packages but I can't ask him questions because he doesn't speak to me (his choice, not mine).

But I know this much. Nearly all of our packages get flown by the airlines. If the airlines go down, mail order goes down.

One of my brothers is supposedly in Florida learning to fly a 737 for this package job. Is he even actually there (he lies about a lot of things)? Was he able to get out? I have no idea and no way to find out.

April

Veteran

Update from Wednesday: my postal note got picked up, as did my note to UPS. Fed Ex comes here less often, so that person's note is still taped to my door.

I am guessing I will get responses tomorrow and will let you know what my delivery people say.

Jenni NZ

Veteran

I think here with lockdown we are not allowed to just order anything we want on line anyway? One clothing website I looked at ( not to order just to look) last night was going to be holding any orders and not packing until they felt it was safe for the warehouse workers to be packing up. I feel, like I think Christina said, that a lot of our economy is built on unnecessary things. And I was already changing my ways well before this crisis. If the world is making far too much clothing, then perhaps this shock may make some of the irresponsible manufacturers make less of it? So I’m not certain that “keeping the economy going” when it is such a wasteful economy, is necessarily a good thing. But in any case, as I say, in our country I don’t believe we can just buy willy-nilly.

Zaeobi

(website)

Veteran

An interesting question. We've been in lockdown for going into 6 months now, but people were still ordering things online during the protests. The warehouse workers still had to physically go to work though, which would have been scary if they ran into protestors. But this may be different since they were in danger getting to work rather than in the workplace itself.

I have a list of wardrobe holes found from a closet purge I did last year, once I started working from home due to the protests. I've therefore been buying slowly & mindfully to plug those gaps over the past few months, with a few orders placed to be delivered by the time I got back from a January trip - it was (un)lucky timing since the virus hit 2 days after I had returned! The attitude towards it has been very different in HK compared to the west from the start, though - since social distancing is largely difficult in such a densely populated city, the focus has been on wearing a mask instead. Every delivery driver I met during this time was therefore wearing a mask & had access to the hand gel that our security guards place downstairs, so it's possible that my situation is different, too. I've spent a lot of time trying to educate my family in the UK on what they can do practically to protect themselves & what is hysterical hype, based on our lived experiences in HK - we even got them to deliver masks to us from the UK when everyone had cleared the shelves out in HK, back in January! But unfortunately they still didn't listen to us until the government officially declared the situation in the UK. But at which point, it seemed like *everyone* was acting on hype, like HK had been doing back in January. Anyway, I digress

Since I'm from the UK, most of my online shopping has been from UK stores - I'm too big to fit into the Asian sizing here, so unfortunately local shopping isn't an option for me. I had some things sent to my UK address but I recently placed an order to HK just before the virus lockdown hit the UK, so it only just reached me yesterday. I think, given the circumstances, I'm going to hold off on buying any more things online, but it's unfortunate that my purchasing got caught in the middle of the UK/ HK divide. Food for thought.

April

Veteran

Watch for an update after my deliveries arrive today. I'll check back and let you know if USPS and UPS workers responded to my notes and what they report.

UPS's website talks a good game but I'd like to know what their workers say. A lot of places blather, for example, about hand sanitizer -- yet they don't tell you where they will get it from.

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

Jenni, I think you make a good point - a lot of b&m stores were struggling before this all happened, due to changing buying habits and the internet. I hope that some local indie shops can persist but honestly I’m not that distressed if some mall chains don’t survive. We were shipping a ton of cheap stuff across the world that no one really needed and if we end up with a more local economy where we all have less items to choose from it’s maybe for the best in the long run.

And I don’t say this from an academic perspective on high; I bought plenty of mall brands and have arguably been part of the problem. And the bookstore where I work has closed down for at least two weeks for a stay at home order and I probably won’t have a job at the end of all this. Nobody likes to give up what they’ve been used to having, but maybe the world will be better off if we’re all forced to make real changes.

April

Veteran

I must say our small local markets are doing a heroic job of stepping up right now. I realize it's a privilege to be able to afford their slightly higher prices, but many near us are also donating free food to people who can't do that. I will remember their actions when the world settles down.

April

Veteran

Ok, UPS was here today and the driver did not return my note with any comments. I can't assume that means he's satisfied with UPS's safety precautions (could mean he's scared to say anything, right?) but I took it to mean he's not desperate to report something to someone.

Fed Ex hasn't been here yet.

USPS came but I haven't been to the mailbox yet so not sure if he returned my note. Stay tuned.

Jessikams

(website)

Veteran

Sorry cross-posted!

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