Traci, I have to agree! I was one who got caught out (very mildly though) for using the term feminine. It hasn't stopped me from posting, but one has to be more creative! I sometimes wonder if the frequently used 'alluring' isn't secret code for feminine? Currently I am participating in a challenge, and commenting on posts related to androgyny, tomboy, borrowed from the boys, etc style. I sense folks are trying to be careful, as we feel around the edges and experiment with the boundaries of this style. Leather, studs, and rocker chic have been brought into the discussion. RATE (Rough Around The Edges) might get discussed. It is a tricky conversation, yet I find that I am gaining some interesting insight into my motivation to lean in that style direction.

I wonder if these types of conversations happen in Fashion School?

Wow, you can't say feminine anymore? It's funny--my style is distinctly feminine, but I've never used the term on the forum. I had a feeling it would be frowned upon and come to find out somebody has in fact been frowning upon it.

But there's a thread going on now about androgynous style, which in practical terms just means not feminine. So Traci, maybe you and I can just say non-androgynous instead of the f-word.

I have to say that I missed anyone being called out on using the term "feminine". What is offensive about anything being called "feminine"? And how is it different from calling something the apparently acceptable "androgynous"?

I realize it takes all kinds, but all the politics are really annoying. We all have our own points of reference. Why is the first instinct to assume the worst about someone who uses a term we may not prefer instead of simply assuming they have a different reference point? This is how places become echo (with a small e) chambers.

A few years ago I commented on how pretty an especially lovely baby girl was in the grocery store and her mother responded by saying that they prefer people to tell her she's smart.

I thought, well, I can see she's very pretty, I have no idea if she's smart, and if she'd been a boy I would have said "handsome", but I respect that this was an evolving gender identification experience and it was educational.

I started to think about the whole nature of compliments, and how even comments truly intended as positive can be welcome or destabilizing depending on the context.

Masculine and feminine aren't terms that were invented for the purpose of identifying a group of people in a negative way and but if people feel confused or hurt by their usage I want to know and it might be good exercise to develop other way to define those terms, even to myself.

I also missed any dressing-down for using "masculine" and "feminine" as descriptions for outfits/styles. I'm all for respectful language around gender, class, etc., but I fail to see how referring to style in terms of masculine/feminine is judgmental or insulting, unless the reader sees something inherently negative about being masculine or feminine.

I'm curious about the feminine word issue too - missed that conversation . How can that be deemed offensive or inappropriate?

I can't recall the specific topic that sparked it in order to point to the particular thread.

My best effort at summarizing the train of thought is that feminine refers to anything pertaining to women and masculine refers to things pertaining to men, so by calling frills and lace and pink feminine we are diminishing women who aren't into those things and also diminishing men who are into those things. It was offered that instead we should say more specific things like delicate, soft, ruffled, pink, structured, and angular, that aren't attached to a gender.

If anyone else can explain it better, please do!

Hmm, I think I missed those convos on feminine/masculine that Traci is referring to. Kibbe uses the terms Yin and Yang instead, but those are still somewhat gender-essentializing, IMO. Honestly, even among members of the trans/genderqueer/non-binary communities, it's pretty common to self identify as masculine or feminine (or butch/femme), even while recognizing that the descriptors are imperfect and perhaps problematic. I understand how it can be uncomfortable to be labeled by strangers, but that's sort of part and parcel of posting photos of oneself on a style forum, no? Unless the poster makes a note at the outset that they find certain descriptors offensive, it's going to be very hard for commenters to guess what terms they need to avoid.

I guess my own approach has been to modify with words like "conventionally" or "classically" -- this is a conventionally flattering silhouette on you, that's a classically feminine style -- to try to indicate a generalized perception. Because I do think what people are often after when they post WIWs is a collective perception of a given look.

sigh

Oh geez. Well, I'll admit I don't give a lot of thought to the potential that what I write can be interpreted incorrectly by others. I'd drive myself batty if I tried to get into the heads of anyone else but my own. But if I'm guilty of any of these typecasting situations mentioned throughout this thread, then I apologize in advance. I merely see the forum as a place to learn, grow, and share. And part of that process for me is seeing differences whether it be fashion styles, or the written words used in posts. And I post my own when I can, because I like contributing to the pool of information and connecting with people who enjoy fashion as much as I do.

Communicating ideas to others on a diverse, international forum is ripe for misinterpretation because our words don’t have an universal, innate meaning capable of arousing the same feelings in everyone. Coercing public apologies and insisting on extended clarifications every time some uses a descriptive label would certainly alter the forum—and I’m not sure for the better. To quote Lisa, I come to the forum to learn, grow, and share, and that’s more likely to happen if I assume good intentions until it’s very clear another member intends to be rude or cruel.

Instead of asking others to adjust their speech patterns to accommodate my sensitivities—an impossible task since most commenters have never met me or know much about me—I think participating in this kind of forum puts the burden on me to monitor my feelings and reactions to what is said. I can choose feel insulted and demand a retraction when someone makes an off-hand comment about not wanting to look “old and frumpy”, or I can choose to see the comment as one person’s expression of how she feels about herself which has nothing to do with me or my age. Same goes for a forum member with specific ideas about what constitutes a “feminine” style, or someone who feels it’s impossible to be stylish if she doesn’t fit into a size 2. If those remarks upset me because they arouse my defenses and prod at my insecurities, that’s my problem, not hers. Monitoring and controlling my feelings is the price I pay to be part of an interesting discussion with a group of diverse and interesting women, with Angie’s “rules” as my guide.

Thank you, Gaylene!

I think the more constricted we get, cross- checking every sentence, the less anyone will find it worth the time and energy to post outfits or comments and certainly not anything “ critical “ , meaning,if it’s a response to my outfit or plan, a viewpoint not mirroring my own that MIGHT take me aback, but also might open up some new ideas for me. It would be a shame, really.

Slow clap to everything Gaylene said.

Standing in line clapping for Gaylene - as usual. There is no way I am going to start parsing every phrase and word and attaching some dictionary meaning to it. No one speaks nor writes without their personal tone influencing it, and boy , would it be boring and robotic if it were otherwise. And I'm absolutely open to hearing other interpretations of a word or phrase, but I'm not going to be editing my posts to accommodate every possible misinterpretation. I'll have to take myself elsewhere if that's the case.

And here's an example from my perspective (one which makes me laugh sometimes ). Angie uses the word "alluring " quite often. I find it conjures up a very different image and meaning than she intends or uses it for. I don't get in a knot over it - I know it's a cultural difference in the way words can be used . Let's enjoy the forum for that which it is intended.

THANK YOU Gaylene!

And yes, Golfer...sigh...

Exactly, Gaylene!

Lisa, I have a similar odd reaction to the word "alluring." But I understand what Angie intends, so I acknowledge to myself that it's my own bias or quirk at work, NOT someone else's problem.

Kudos to Gaylene!

And yes.....***sigh***

Hah, I do parse just about everything I post (everywhere, not just here) for unconscious biases and possible misinterpretations. Not saying others ought to, by any means, but I have a hard time just throwing my unedited views out into the world. At this point it takes less energy to anticipate what will offend than to get called out for it later. But I went to school in the '00s so it might be a generational difference. The campus discourse surrounding identity just gets thornier and thornier.

Totally agree with Gaylene.

YAY Gaylene...I was hesitant to post my opinion, and you stated it much better than I would have!!

Like La Ped I am careful about what I say and write. I went to school in the 70s and 80s. I have been called out for certain phrases and I am fine with that. I realized after I wrote something there is so much about me that does not get communicated here and it is okay. If I do something offensive or puzzling then tell me. I actually think the forum is up to it. We are a pretty evolved group.

Count me in the standing ovation line for Gaylene.

One of the things that makes this forum such a rare place are the standards of good-faith engagement Angie has set for us. I'm quite certain the rich discussions we have in here are down to that very assumption: that we're all in here to share our experience and learn from each other.

You're right, of course we should all think carefully about how we frame things when addressing each other. But there are so many agendas at work around fashion that it can be very hard to negotiate some of the more sensitive topics across cultural divides (and I say this as a European among Americans.)

Minding our language will only take us so far - we need to be prepared for other users to challenge us. This inevitably involves a little effort on everyone's part, because it means leaving at the door some of our assumptions about what an online community can or should be. That extra mile is well worth it in my opinion.

And I quite like the word "alluring", although I might be tempted to substitute "foxy".

Huzzah, Gaylene!! Amen to assuming positive intentions! Thank you so much for taking the time to write that so beautifully.

Following Angie's gracious lead, this forum has been a kind, encouraging and sometimes gently funny place for all the years I have been around. I have always felt that each participant was appreciated as a uniquely beautiful creature.

Another round of applause for Gaylene. So true!