I'm confused, ironkurtin. If you want long hair, why not stop getting haircuts? Don't touch it for 8 months, and it'll be at your shoulders! Let it grow...it's the easiest beauty trick to master!

Hugs to all who were ever made to feel inadequate or less of a valued person because of externals. All I can say is I've seen both sides of the coin. I've been told since I was young that I was "pretty", "beautiful", etc., and had the whole shebang of advantages AND problems (being harassed, made to feel like a sex object, and all of that icky deal.) Then in recent years, I gained a noticeable amount of weight, in my late 30s (35+ lbs), and suddenly it was as though my human stock plummeted. I wasn't complimented anymore, I was bombarded with CONSTANT criticism from family members and even my partner, and if I'd see an old friend or acquaintance I'd be met with "What HAPPENED to you...???" and it felt as though something horrific - a deformity or worse - had occured. (!!!) Awful feeling. Then I realized, hey, I'm the same person - personality, humour, mind, passions - at size 12/14 as I was at size 8, so I'm not going to have a crisis fit over people's comments or nitpicks. I'm reasonably happy and content with my life and myself - much more so than when I was considered a young "beauty" - so I feel I've passed the point of worrying too much. I don't cling to my past self, in other words. I enjoyed the good moments, but don't miss the vulnerable ones. I make the most of what I've got, and I feel more relaxed. The neurosis over minor flaws, or worrying about losing my looks, or wondering if my partner would love me even if I didn't look a certain way - I feel freed from those thoughts.

Another amazing thread.So many of these thoughts resonate with me, I don't know where to begin. I am also someone who has received a totally mixed bag of reactions throughout my life, and my self image is similarly confused. If someone gives me a second look I seriously never know if it is because I look good or bad (or outlandish, which I admit is sometimes the case). And approachability is such a big factor in how the world treats you. On a day that I have done some yoga, feel good and am not scowling, the world certainly does treat me differently than when I walk around scowling. And finally, yes, I think all my women friends are beautiful. Not as a conscious decision based on how I feel about them but because I truly see them as beautiful.

Ha! It's true. I could grow out my hair; why stop at 8 months? I meant it as an example of things I sometimes mull over. What if...

This is a fascinating topic. I've enjoyed reading everyone's accounts of their own experiences. You all are beautiful to me!

I don't fit the confines of traditional beauty, either - if we're going by typical Hollywood beauty standards, I'm too wide and short, carry too much body fat, my nose is not perfectly straight, my chin is recessed and I don't have a strong, defined jawline, my hair is too short, my skin has large pores, my arms are too hairy, my rise-to-waist proportions are totally wonky, my bottom teeth are crooked (though my mouth would have been much worse had it not been for years of braces), I wear glasses, my eyebrows are probably not groomed or thin enough to suit the preferred look, and my skin has scarring and large pores. And heck, if we're going to get really picky, some people don't find red hair attractive. (gasp!)

And lately I've become more and more okay with that to the point where I genuinely enjoy the way I look most of the time. I used to look a lot closer to the idea of a traditional beauty - much thinner, long blonde hair - but I did not feel attractive, and I honestly didn't start feeling really "me" until I cut my hair short and dyed it red in college.

Here's what makes me feel like a beauty even if I may not actually look like one: I dress in a way that makes me feel alluring and confident. I smile at people and try to make sure the smile reaches my voice and eyes, if that makes sense - conveying that I'm genuinely pleased to see them. I try very, very hard not to compare myself, my looks, my body, my size, with other people that I see, for good or for ill. I laugh, and try (& sometimes fail) not to take myself so darn seriously. I try to frequently vocalize compliments to family and friends to remind them that I think they are internally & externally beautiful. I try to remind myself that most people are NOT looking at me and judging me, because usually we're too preoccupied with judging ourselves to care about critiquing everybody else. Most of the time, this gets me by or helps me work out of the occasional slump.

I could not stop reading this thread! It is so funny that this topic is lose to every woman alive. I think that our need to be attractive is somewhere on the gene level, don't you think?
I had a very low self-esteem when I was growing up. I was too tall and not pretty - at least I thought so. It did not help that my mom is a real beauty - inside and out, and my younger sister is very pretty too. I always felt an ugly duckling and suffered immensely on this account. In my teens I was pretty sure that I would never get married and I did not even have a boyfriend until I turned 20! Can you imagine that I was always uneasy with my little sister (5 years younger than me) because I felt especially ugly in her presence. She was the "pretty" one, I was the "smart" one. Now I realize that her main attractiveness was her confidence in herself (I think she was born with it) and my main problem was my lack of confidence. I wish I understood that when I was 18, it would save me a lot of suffering. I am now in piece with myself in how I look and actually I feel better now in this regard that ever before.
Now in "old" wise age I understand that real attractiveness and beauty come from within. I agree that we see people we love with different "heart and soul' eyes and this is the real beauty for us.
Beauty is harmony between how you look, how you feel, how you act and how you live.
I agree with Amy: you are all beautiful even if not conventionally pretty.

I also want to say a few things after reading through the comments on this thread:

My heart aches after reading some of the comments about how bad some of you have been made to feel in the past about your appearance. Why aren't virtual hugs possible yet?

I don't know if it's because I'm "average" in my looks, but I really haven't noticed either extreme in my life - no preferential treatment, but I haven't been made to feel like a dog, either. Or if people were making fun of my looks, it was either behind my back, or I was oblivious to it.

I'm also incredibly grateful that I've been lucky to be surrounded by women who are not catty or judgy about each other's bodies - even during my years where my self-confidence was terrible, I had people in my life reminding me (verbally) just about every day that they thought I was beautiful and worth caring about. I may not have been in a position to internalize that at the time, but it stuck with me.

Some of your posts really resonate with me. Kari, the last paragraph of your first post is exactly my approach these days. I try to smile, be friendly and approachable and remember not to compare myself to others.

I will be very honest, I do not think I am pretty at all. I know, rationally, that I am not the Elephant Man and usually feel okay about my looks. As a young woman I will say without arrogance, that I had an awesome body. I didn't know it then (I received constant criticism from boysfriends and friends - too skinny, boobs/butt too small, ugly smile, bad voice etc) and felt boyish and unattractive. Anna's comment, "Since I can't be pretty, I may as well be interesting" is 100% how I felt and thus a punk rock girl was born. I didn't fit in, couldn't pull off preppy, felt ugly so I figured I would redefine beauty for myself. I was not particularly approachable due to my esteem problems so despite having a great figure I didn't experience any real perks for being attractive.

Rationally I know I am not bad. My body isn't what it once was but I have a reasonably decent figure for my age. My face is not pretty but it's non-awful. And while I do not feel pretty, this is what I've got so I may as well make the best of it. I smile, dress as well as I know how, and try to be friendly and pleasant as best I can. There are times when I feel like I can say I look good objectively but I never really _feel_ it. How pathetic!

I will admit to a certain amount of Schadenfreude when I found out a VERY critical ex-boyfriend is now significantly over-weight and bald. I'm sure he'd still find plenty to criticize but now at least I would have the confidence to laugh in his face!

I do love that thought, "All my friends are beautiful." They really are!

When I was a teenager I felt absolutely ugly - I wasn't, but I felt like I was - and consequently, I didn't look near as pretty as I could have - because of my low self-esteem and lack of confidence. Now, I rarely think about if I am pretty or not. Somewhere along the way, it became a non-issue for me. I know that I am "good enough" when it comes to most things in my life - including my looks. Perhaps it comes with maturity - perhaps it comes with being relatively happy with my life - the choices I have made and the way I am spending my time - or perhaps it comes from having a husband who absolutely adores me and thinks that I am the most beautiful and most intelligent woman in the whole wide world (seriously!). I do agree with those that have already written about beauty coming from attributes that reflect the character of a person, rather than physical features of a person. I also agree that love makes a huge difference in how you view someone and in how they view you.

And just for the record - I am drawn not only to unconventional personalities, but also unconventional beauties. Diversity is my "high."

 I have a friend who I think is absolutely stunning. She looks like a modern-day goddess of fertility. When I am out and about with her I see how she turns heads wherever she goes. We were leaving a restaurant once, and as she pulled her glove out of her pocket a dirty tissue fell out. Some passing man leapt to the floor to hand it back to her! A dirty tissue! That's the kind of effect she has on men. But seeing how she constantly has to deal with unwanted attention, frankly it just seems like a lot of trouble to me. Maybe that just says a lot about my personality though. Also I think that sometimes other women treat her badly. Honestly, I get treated better shopping when I am on my own. 

A couple of other disjointed thoughts on the subject:

On the one hand I would say beauty fades, but I think this is not 100% true. Even with gray hair and wrinkles some women radiate beauty. Angie's client Karen is an example of this, and I have met women in real life too. At the same time I think Mo, for example, is right on in her description of how if you rely only on a certain kind of allure to get you through life then at some point you are going to be in trouble.
This discussion also put me in mind of something my Aunt said recently. She works on a university campus in administration, and she made some comment like "I don't think I've seen a bad looking thing under 25 walking around." I think it is so true that there is a certain kind of beauty to youth that most women really cannot see in themselves at the time because mostly we are so focused on finding our flaws.
To be honest I really don't understand why people focus on the ideal of a tall, thin, blond woman with big boobs. If you just look with your own eyes and listen to your own reaction to the people around you, there are so many different packages that are beautiful.  I am not being touchy-feely. I mean really, just think who in your life have you reacted to with, oh, she is stunning! I am sure they were not all tall, blond, and busty. Then why would you hold yourself up to a single standard like this? This is also why I am kind of on a crusade against short-bashing. Obviously it is in my self interest because I am short, but I honestly just can't see that only tall people are beautiful and that I would be more attractive if I were taller.  I just don't believe that. Probably it is true that to some men taller is more attractive, but why is that more important than the men (or women) for whom this is not true? Why is it more important what you are told than what you see with your own eyes and feel with your own heart?

And finally to Angie's point, I also find it to be true that maybe I meet someone and think, oh they are so beautiful, but then when their person is not matching up to that, the beauty completely evaporates. I just can't see it anymore. The same thing with people I like or love, they become more physically attractive in my eyes because I feel positive about them. This is important and real too.

I hope I don't sound strident. Obviously this is a topic I have thought about too.

What a great topic IK! Like many of the women here, I never felt pretty. I had one abusive boyfriend who actually sat me down and told me I was ugly, and that it shouldn't bother me, I should just accept it. It felt really cruel.

However, I do go back and look at younger pictures of myself and think, I wasn't as unattractive as I thought. I wished I had been more appreciative of myself back then.

Now, my philosophy is "age is the great equalizer." Some people who were gorgeous younger, start looking pretty average as they age. And people who were not beautiful, start looking average too. So there is a convergence on the beauty scale.

I serve food to many older people in my community at my family's restaurant. When I think of the beautiful older people, it is 100% dependent on whether they smile, have a sense of humor, are kind, and seem happy. This feels so liberating -- it means that an average Jane like me can become beautiful as I age, because it is my actions and my spirit that will leave an impression.

And didn't Andy Rooney say, "smile, it's a lot cheaper than a plastic surgeon."

Scarlet, what you wrote reminds me of something that flitted through my brain while watching Top Chef a couple of weeks ago. The guest judge was Charlize Theron, and she pretty much exemplifies the current western ideal of beauty, wouldn't you say? Tall, thin, blond, well-proportioned... A friend of mine who writes TV reviews said that Padma Lakshmi fades into the woodwork next to Charlize, but I have to disagree -- Padma is certainly beautiful as well. But the thought that crossed my mind was that Charlize is indeed lovely, but not terribly interesting looking to me. Almost too "perfect" if there is such a thing. I think I prefer looking at faces that have a little something "off" in their beauty.

And then it occurred to me. I don't want to look like Charlize Theron. I don't want to look like anyone else. I just want to be the best version of me possible. Inside and out. It seems so simple, but it's a very liberating thought. I think being at peace with oneself and loving oneself makes our beauty shine though. It may sound totally hokey, but there you have it.

What an interesting discussion! I've always felt attractive, but not cute nor pretty in the traditional sense. I'm an outgoing person--thanks in large part to 11 years of piano lessons, recitals and playing weekly for church (and later in my 20s playing professionally) that developed my self confidence... and a mother who made sure I was always appropriately dressed. She used to joke that I was as pretty as I could be and stressed the importance of dressing and behaving my best.

I've never felt ugly or unattractive, though I might if I didn't make the effort to dress nicely. I never had any trouble getting dates, so I guess the guys thought I was attractive. No one ever told me I was pretty, though. Maybe I'm an unconventional beauty. It's nice to think of myself that way.

The most beautiful people I know are not necessarily physically attractive. They are beautiful on the inside. Still, first impressions count, and people generally form opinions based on appearance.

I think it's kinda nice not to be a traditional beauty. The reason I say this is because not being traditionally beautiful or pretty keeps one humble and forces one not to rely on looks to get by in life. Just my 2 cents' worth, of course, but I think there's a lot to be said for developing other talents, getting a good education and having a strong faith (whatever your religion may be).

Such an interesting read, wowsa! There are so many things going through my mind...I guess some of what we carry around with us in our heads is about those first comments or realizations we experienced when we were children and adolescents. What was considered beautiful then was all about context. In my little world then, beauty or prettiness was about being very petite, small, cute, "cheerleaderish." I was most decidedly not in that group :). I remember feeling quite hideous in middle school, as many of us probably did.

But when I moved into different contexts, and got a little older, things changed and I would say that I began to be perceived differently. It wasn't really *me* that had changed, at least not too much, it was more the context. There are so many levels to this whole thing of attractiveness or beauty: There is what is societally understood as beauty, how your circle or group defines it, how you define it, how you feel inside, what your being is/what comes from *who you are*, how much charisma and personal power you have, confidence, etc. All of these things all make up this stew of beauty, attractiveness, whatever.

As women, we are in part defined by how society judges us in the looks department. We just are. It's a challenge to keep perspective on what really matters, IMO. I love Kim's discussion of beauty, and Angie's similar take. I am frankly bored by cookie cutter, airbrushed, sleek-ified, drones that all look alike (that we see on TV, in magazines, etc.). They might as well be robots to my eye. It sounds so cliched, but beauty is all around us, in all ages, shapes, forms. It's really freeing to be able to see it everywhere and not be hemmed in by what celebrity culture or TV tells me is real :).

ETA: I posted at the same time as many of you just did! Scarlet, I couldn't agree more with your thoughts--you don't sound strident in the least! I agree about the crusade against short-bashing :).

Janet, your story about Top Chef reminds me that beauty is incredibly subjective. I watched that episode with Charlize Theron and I remember thinking how not attractive I found her, and how boring and fake she seemed :). Sometimes women who are considered beautiful have this air of self-consciousness about them, like they are hyper-aware of always being watched or seen. Do you know what I mean? Like they can never really be in the moment just living life, because they are always too conscious of being an object for others to look at and admire. So they won't really smile or really laugh, because that would not be as photogenic, etc. She reminded me of that...

Janet, somewhere I read an article about how symmetry actually IS weird-looking. You know that whole thing about holding a mirror up to reflect one half of your face back, and how the two sides of your face would create totally different loks if symmetrical. I am right with you - the people I tend to find gorgeous have something at least a little unusual about them, and personality is ultimately what shines through.

I have to chuckle about this whole symmetry thing. Years ago, my orthodontist told me my face isn't symmetrical. I knew that--my nose is a little off center due to being hit--but I didn't need to hear that. He assured me that no one has a perfectly symmetrical face. No matter. I accept myself the way I am, flaws and all, and do the best with what God gave me. Besides that, I believe that putting too much (read: excessive) focus on outward beauty is superficial. That's not the kind of person I aspire to be.

Fascinating, moving posts from everyone. I agree that there seems to be a struggle that those of us who aren't seen as traditionally pretty go through, and we end up as stronger, more um, robust people because of it. It reminds me a little bit of how I was really good in school, never had trouble with grades nor had to struggle to study and learn, but when I got out of college into the 'real world' and things didn't always go my way, I had a hard time knowing how to deal with it. It really messed me up and helped lead to my problems with depression in my 20s. If I'd had some failures when I was younger, and learned how to deal with them without losing my concept of self, it would have sucked at the time but I probably would have been a more well-rounded and psychologically robust person. I think a lot of 'traditionally pretty' women can slide by on their attractiveness, without even necessarily knowing about the hidden privilege because they've always had it, until some point - everyone gets older, eventually, after all.

It has been interesting for me in my 30s, as I got older and gained weight, that I did become invisible in a way - I wouldn't get remarks from guys, or looks from people in a certain way. Sometimes it got on my nerves but mostly I found it comforting. For me there was a fair bit of fear associated with being a young woman - I was hyperaware of people's reactions and, probably excessively, afraid of violence or unwanted sexual interest from men. In many ways it's freeing to not have to worry about that as much anymore.

I'm new here, and I really appreciate the warmth and honesty of everyone who contributes to this forum. It is obvious that we women, no matter our looks, all have a lot more in common than we sometimes think.

I discovered this website (it's also a book) called Operation Beautiful. For anyone interested, it's a way of promoting healthy self-esteem for girls and women, for those of us who have suffered with low self-esteem for so long. http://operationbeautiful.com/. It looks kind of fun!

My self-esteem regarding my looks has been pretty negative most of my life. During my growing up years, I had thick glasses, and also a space between my front teeth that I absolutely loathed. I eventually got contacts, and braces when I was 20 to close the space, and began to feel somewhat better about myself. But my weight was always a few pounds more than it could have been, and I felt like a dowdy, plain girl next to my friends. I wish I had known the value of sports/exercise when I was young, so that I could have developed the habit earlier in life. I'm trying to do it now, but it's a lot harder.

Some of you have mentioned conventional or classic beauty, and I've always wondered what that is. Not the Victoria's Secret models -- blond, tall, and large busted -- as I don't think they are very pretty, but those female characters described in novels, often by other female characters. Is it bone structure? Posture? Coloring of hair, eyes, and skin?

I sometimes wonder, if we each had a blank check and went to a Hollywood makeover crew, if each of us wouldn't turn out pretty/beautiful? What I mean is, if I had a professional to do my hair and makeup and nails, and teach me how to walk gracefully and work out every day, and if I could buy well-made and perfectly tailored clothes, and afford regular facials, I might come across as more beautiful to others than I do IRL. Because I am not as talented with blowing my fine hair dry, or putting on eye makeup, or getting done all the things that celebrities and financially blessed people can do, I don't think it's fair to compare myself with them. Sometimes I have fun imagining what they would look like if they were in a different lifestyle, and I suspect many of them would look perfectly ordinary.

Now in my 40s, I do believe that our attitudes, confidence, posture, simple grooming, and all the other things mentioned in these posts are what make us truly beautiful. There were a number of girls and women I envied for their looks and wardrobes, until they opened their mouths and I got a taste of their personalities...I left my conversation with them feeling content for who I was, both inside and outside.

I'm still checking in on this thread! It's addictive. This topic touches a nerve with a lot of women, I see.

Debby, I've got to reply to your remark about the gap between your front teeth, because my daughter has one too, and we need to decide whether it's worth changing now vs. later. It's easier to close the gap now -- all they would do is snip the bit of gum that extends between her front teeth. If left too long, it would require braces. As it stands, she likes her gap, which is like her father's (and I have to say I'm fond of the gap on both of them -- it's adorable -- and I really don't want to try to close it). But she's only eight. I'm concerned that she'll change her mind. Why did you dislike yours so much?

This has been a fastinating thread. I've never been pretty in the conventional way. My family always seemed to be trying to "fix" me with braces, ugly hair perms, and feeding me candy in hopes that I'd put on weight. They often inferred that I was "so ugly I was cute" like the family pekinese puppy.
However I did feel loved and was praised sincerely for intelligence, artistic talent, and doing good. I had many friends.
I've met several women who were stuck in the time when they were popular...the cute little girl with long blonde curls that were no longer attractive on someone over 70, the peppy highschool cheerleader who was homecoming queen and could turn every conversation to her glory days, etc.
I think people are a bit like trees. Some get all all the attention in the spring of their lives like a flowering dogwood that later just looks like another tree. Others in the summer of life are full and lush like the the ash or linden. Some shine in autumn like a sugar maple with glowing color; and others finally get noticed for their beautiful structure and strength when all the foliage is gone like a majestic oak in winter.

Joy, you are brilliant! What a beautiful and poetic sentiment - love that!

This is definitely a thread that's impossible to stop reading.

I have this classification scheme in my head: I use "pretty" to mean symmetrical - well, if I'm complimenting someone, I mean more than that. But if I'm being Dr. Spock about it, that's what I use the term for. It means, in this scheme, "undisturbing." Lots of people like this, because they feel they can handle it. Also, humans are "sight creatures" - like a dog can be a "sight hound." So a lot of people go for this, because human nature tends to weight toward the visual - if the visual is OK, we'll take the gamble.

"Beauty" I use for disturbing, compelling. The features are not, perhaps, so perfect, but somehow visually the person is more for it. A lot of people are uncomfortable with "beauty" in this sense, because it's too compelling. It can make people feel trapped.

"Attractive" is a whole other ball of worms. It's what makes you actually want to be with someone for the long run. A person can be drop dead and repulsive at the same time. Or deadly boring. Conversely, you can be just OK or worse in looks, but beat the pants off of everyone, because you are attractive.

I'm pretty symmetrical, but I have a round little head that does not lend itself nicely to photos. That's yet another facet in the modern world. I don't know, I'm nearsighted and the visual doesn't have much weight with me because of it. I CAN see the rhythm of how people walk, and that is something that carries meaning for me.

I'm surprised at how many of you don't think of yourself as pretty/beautiful because I look at all of your WIWs and all I see is a bunch of confident, stylish, gorgeous women! It makes me sad how everyone has had to deal with negative comments in their past and how it has shaped their self esteem. We need to counteract that pervasive negativity by giving ourselves, our kids, friends and others lots and lots of compliments! Both about our external and internal beauty!

I don't feel like I'm not pretty or beautiful. I just don't think my looks fit America's idea of pretty or beautiful. If I tried to meet those standards, I'd have to be several inches taller, at least 20 pounds lighter, blonde, with different facial features and different body type.

I'm happy with the way I am, though. I've never felt the need to look like or be like anyone else. Still, I do believe in dressing my best and putting my best foot forward. Appearance does matter to me. I just think there are different types/ideas of beauty besides the looks pushed on us by the fashion industry.

@ Natalie - Oh, well... I was voted prettiest girl in first grade. I think there was a grand total of 8 girls to choose from. Hahaha! But what the heck, I have been able to live off that all these years and tell myself I can get by with my looks.

Ya, the real problem is my personality... LOLOLOL!

Rachylou, you are so right about beautiful/pretty vs. attractive. I think of the first two as more "objective" in my head, whereas attractive is more subjective. There are lots of beautiful people I do NOT find attractive, and although my husband is conventionally handsome, I didn't find him attractive until I got to know him.

I knew a guy who was truly drop-dead gorgeous. He was so good looking you had to leave the room and laugh. It was sorta, "what can you do with that?"

A little bit sad. There is a point of diminishing returns with beauty.

Rachylou, you've got a wicked sideways sense of humour. You make me laugh every time.

Hmm, I seem to be have a Zoolander flashback. What was the turn of phrase, "ridiculously attractive"?

I don't particularly value human beauty. I mean, I appreciate it viscerally; it's hard not to - it's hardwired into our brains. But I'm not particularly fussed that I'm not beautiful. After all, beautiful people didn't earn their beauty or do anything to get it. In a way it seems weird to compliment people on their looks because it was just random luck that they look the way they do. Now, the things you do, and the choices you make that influence how you look, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

All the comments here are compelling and so intensely interesting. And also, it makes me feel sad to see how much we are all suffering from this beauty imposition.

I really like QM's idea of stating what "beautiful", applied to a person, actually means for us.

Here is my take:

- Warm smile: You sense that this person smiles easily, not necessarily all the time, but that smile comes naturally, a smile that engages others, that captures your attention.

- Angie's "dancing eyes" description: yes, eyes that have some fire in them, that light up, that are not asleep.

- Voice: warmth, softness, assurance. It plays a big part in someone being "pretty" or not.

- Some asperity: something that catch your eye, like a quirk, and make it stay there an extra second. Just enough that your attention is taken towards another detail. There is nothing worse than no asperity in someone. A nightmare: walking on a certain American university campus populated with carbon copy after carbon copy of Barbies, sometimes even in clusters, all loud, blond, 5'6, made up the same way, wearing the same clothes (and most of them in Uggs. This was a few ears ago).

What I mean by quirk: something unique, and carried with pride. I especially find women with unconventional haircuts who own it very attractive. I don't know why. I also find that women with larger noses often have a more interesting face.

- Smell... you don't have to smell the person from afar, but just to look at her, you have a feeling there is a fragrance to her, like flowers, or spice, or vanilla.