OT: When you are not traditionally pretty...

lyn*

I often think that my life would be easier too if I was more conventionally beautiful, but lately, I've just been trying to dress better and am definitely speaking to the "nuts to you" in me too.

I usually try to focus in on one or two parts I think are very fabulous and show them off

13 years ago

MsMary

Veteran

OMG, I am totally competent to comment on this!!

Five years ago I was fat and had gray hair and was a very frumpy dresser, featuring black polyester suits from Macy's and suntan panty hose. Then I went back to blond, lost almost 60 pounds, had a little nip/tuck and got a more current hairdo, and found YLF and started having fun with fashion. At this point it seems I'm adhering pretty closely to the "traditional beauty" standard for somebody my age.

And guess what? There are two realities going on simultaneously, each 100% and complete.

1. I am still me, with all the problems I had when I was fat and didn't dress well and had gray hair. Like, exactly. Nothing has really changed. At all. At all, at all. I still have every single one of my problems and hangups and issues.

AND

2. At the very same time, EVERYTHING is different! There is definitely a huge amount of privilege attached to conforming to societal norms of "beauty," and at long last I'm getting a taste of that and it's pretty intoxicating. People definitely treat me better in every context from colleagues at work (I changed job sites recently and nobody here knew me before) to salespeople in stores. It's like a miracle.

Crazy, huh?

13 years ago

catgirl

Veteran

IK, I think being an unconventional beauty is a huge compliment - look at all the actresses who are said to fit that mold. You're still a beauty, after all!

This response is not a bid to be reassured, either! But it's a subject I give a lot of thought to, especially as my friends and I are reaching an age where maintaining ourselves requires a bit more thought and effort.

In India, there tends to be quite a rigid standard of beauty as well, at least when I was young. I was often told which of my features were "good" or "bad" with complete assurance by my relatives. (My mother protected me as much as she could and fought that with all her heart, bless her!)

On top of that, I grew up iin the U.S., where I was also far from the common standard of beauty (tall, blonde, blue-eyed, slender, etc...). My sister is stunning (think Lisa Bonet back in the day), and I was always "the smart one". Of course, she turned out to be smart too. It's taken a lot to get past all that, and I can't say I'm over it, sadly, even knowing how foolish it is.

On the other hand, my husband tells me his friends always comment to him on how lucky he is to have a wife like me, and I'm not sure how I feel about THAT either! I don't know that there's anything that would convince me, on a long term basis, that I'm pretty. Please understand this is not something that keeps me awake or takes up much time in my life at all! It's just one of those underlying threads that I have to be aware of and keep in check.

Recently I've wondered (due to some mid-life crisis ponderings) if even beautiful women don't get told that they're lovely - I know I'm kind of like "Why bother? Of course they KNOW they're gorgeous!" And granted they probably get all the hidden perks of that beauty in this society. Nevertheless, I've now made it a point to tell the women in my circle that they are stunning and fab. Because they are, and how can that not make you feel good?

Can you tell this is a subject of much thought for me? Thanks for raising it. I'm dying to see what others say here.

13 years ago

Kim

Veteran

Yup. I'm in the "traditional beauty" camp, as in I mirror what society has established as the "norm" for beauty, (although I'm not a model, nor do I play one on TV...LOL) and I have seen that what MK is true. It's been "easier" to get service, and treated better than those who are less traditional, and yet I still have my own body image issues and self-image issues, because what is basically established as "beauty" is never REALLY defined, and therefore the bar is always moving. It's kind of like hitting a moving target really! LOL

I have OFTEN said, "I wonder who this impossible model is, that we are all measuring ourselves against? Because she's made EVERY ONE of us feel less beautiful than her" EVERY woman I have ever met has had issues with themselves, no matter how "beautiful" I think they are. They think their hips are too big, or lips are too small, or hair is too thin, or on, and on, and on. and on.

I think alot of it comes from jealousy on the part of others and they are happy to impart their poisonous barbs to any poor young lass who will listen. Sadly, that's most of us when we are teens and don't want to stand out too far from our herd! LOL

So in the end I finally developed a "nuts to you" attitude about my self and my body that I am very happy with. I think it's when I finally grew up, and it's only been in the last few years!

So a traditional beauty came to the same realization as you, just a lot later in life! I wish I had known it earlier, it would have saved me a ton of grief over trying to be everything to everybody. Cause when people compliment you on your looks you begin to see that as your source of beauty. As you age and gain some wisdom you start to realize (hopefully) where the real beauty begins, and you my dear have had it all along!

13 years ago

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

IK, I could have written your post. I like certain aspects of my features, eg my eyes and lips, but my nose is not refined and I have tendency to get a double chin.
The last person to tell me I was beautiful was my ex-boyfriend and he had more issues than the New York Times, and I broke up with almost 8 years ago.
I've been trying to date unsuccessfully for the last 3-4 years. I had one guy who for circumstances I didn't fully understand couldn't see my online dating profile photos. He read my profile and we had a good email exchange, everything was going swimmingly until he asked for a photo of me. Then he went *poof*.
I do believe pretty people have it easier. But in certain circles that can work against you, dumb stereotypes about you can't be pretty and smart.
As I getting older, I realized I've never had the young and pretty phase of my life and I never will.

13 years ago

catgirl

Veteran

Anna, on the other hand, how healthy is it to have had your heyday in high school? (and how many H's was that?!) I'm sure there are burdens to being beautiful, they're just not as easily seen.

And it's not uncommon to get better with age!

13 years ago

ironkurtin

Veteran

I had a sort of epiphany looking at pics of me in college and in my 20s. I wasn't traditionally cute, but dang, I was really attractive! No one told me. It would have meant a lot to me! Instead I got a litany of nitpicks. Jerks.

So I assume I am still in the same situation. I MUST rock! Sometimes I (or the camera) just can't see it.

I had a lovely friend who I shared my thoughts with long ago, and she said very definitely, "All of my friends are beautiful." Amen.

13 years ago

MsMary

Veteran

Anna, I agree with Una! I feel really lucky because even though I am gray and saggy and wrinkly in places, I still look better than I ever have! LOL

13 years ago

annagybe

(website)

Veteran

I think this is part of the reason I dress the way I do. Since I can't be pretty, I may as well be interesting. Kinda like Anjelica Houston.

13 years ago

catgirl

Veteran

MaryK, I just have to thank you for your honesty about your own experiences. It's great to be able to have that insight from you on how things change yet stay the same. off to shower and ponder...

13 years ago

MsMary

Veteran

BTW, Anna, I think you're beautiful. No kidding!

13 years ago

Astrid

Veteran

I love the phrase "All of my friends are beautiful.", I think it's important be supporting and positive to the people around you, because no matter what someone else says, they ARE beautiful. But words can get to you, so I think it's great if you tell the people around you that they are fab, like Una said.

I never ever felt pretty until maybe last year. Now with the better clothes and a fab style I feel much more confident about myself. But I don't think I'm traditionally pretty and I've never gotten reactions from other people in my life that would make me think I was. My mum always told me I was beautiful and I felt like I was - until I got to that age were you begin to compare yourself to others and then I always thought, "Yes, alright. YOU think so anyway."! I'm glad I'm over that. I used to think I wanted to be pretty to have it easier, but that time is over too. Dressing better and having fun with fashion made all the difference. I'm now at a point where I'm not uncomfortable getting compliments and have no problem with people looking at me and standing out!

13 years ago

rae

(website)

Veteran

I only recently came to the conclusion that I am pretty, though I'm definitely not the American "girl next door" type. I spent a long time thinking I was hideous... even though my mom would say that my sister and I were beautiful, actions have always spoken to me louder than words. We were not treated as precious at all, and many negative comments said in anger stuck while the compliments said in passing rang hollow. And then of course the popular girls who got lots of attention were all blue-eyed blondes. And then of course I got chicken pox at 13 and was left with many pitted scars at an age when peers are not sensitive about these things...

It was only after I started to get away from my home (about 18), and interact with a greater number of people outside my family, that I began to gather better evidence to work with - but I don't think anything was better. Some girls seemed to hate me without reason. Some boys only wanted to be my friend until I had a boyfriend. I lost a lot of my gymnastics-body-muscle-weight in college and paid more attention to my looks, and suddenly got more compliments from girl friends... but also got some disrespectful cat calls and things from frat boys and such. Being slim/pretty didn't mean I got treated better, IMO. Just that I got hassled more often.

Of course, the there are good things, like having attracted my husband and becoming happy with what I see in the mirror. And I don't think less traditional beauties have it easier, either... I guess my theory is that mean people generally find their reasons to be mean to anyone.

13 years ago

Patty

Veteran

I get the bad service (particularly hairdressers/clothing SAs), the drive by insults in parking lots (then they spin thru and get me again--two diff times in 2 diff cities different demographics) and walk alongs in malls, been passed over and ignored in groups and treated like a child in conversations (like incorrectly educated about how my own industry ACTUALLY works by people in other fields) or walked away from in mid conversation like I wasn't there and, I believe, was even fired from a job (only to be rehired again later without mention of the firing). I am anxiety attack terrified of get togethers like parties and not just because of what to wear but because I end up alone and ignored despite trying to mingle but not a shmoozer.

I walk with my head down, I avoid groups of teens, I try not to go out alone (more likely to be publicly insulted while alone but not always true) I don't go anywhere where I have to get dressed so I don't measure myself against the 'beautiful' people. I try to blend--no over stylee dressing. I try to keep to my line--in a store get what I want, know what I want so I don't need to rely too heavily on a SA and get home no hanging around. Try to keep things simple when dealing with receptionists and other professionals so as not to make them upset or bothered. That's how I navigate.

Not looking for reassurances either and not whining--it's what it is. I don't like it, I don't go looking for it but there must be some truth if I am constantly reminded.

I have three beautiful kids and I will always let them know it.

13 years ago

Vildy

Veteran

I grew up in Southern California and wasn't blonde *enough* to be visible. When I spent a summer back east in my teens, people in my relative's neighborhood would stare at me and suddenly all the boys were interested. I was blond enough for them and that's what my relatives said, too.

I remember in my 20's the mother of a friend exclaiming that I looked just like
Cloris Leachman. Yes, she was some kind of beauty contest runnerup but the mother
meant in the role of the neglected, haggard wife in Last Picture Show. Gee, thanks.
Yeah, the avatar that I posted here probably looks like that, too. Taken in the middle of a D.C. heatwave by a bellhop as I was about to leave for home. So, hot, sweaty, exhausted but it's the only picture I have and it's friendly looking, I figure.

In real life, I get loads of attention as an attractive female. My young 30ish neighbor gal is given to exclaiming "You're so pretty! You're so pretty!" But I'm not conventionally pretty. And friends of friends refer to me as "hot mama" and I'm over 60 and don't show cleavage, don't wear skintight clothes. I'm treated as though I'm pretty because I dress myself as though I think I'm pretty and desirable!

13 years ago

LoP

Veteran

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. In fact, what is considered beautiful in this culture is not exactly the norm for beauty in many cultures. Being influenced by three different cultures daily, and traveling and working under international societal and professional norms of what is attractive and what is acceptable thought me that beauty is what you bring on the table to open up yourself to all these influences and, in my case, blend in while not turning into a stranger to yourself. I found that the least traditionally beautiful people will have the most "strange attractor" factor to themselves because of their charisma and sometimes mojo. Many beautiful people will tell you that their beauty didn't come without a cost. In some cases it turns into a lifestyle and security measure and costs problems later in life. In some cases, it becomes a distraction from other things that matter early in life resulting in not achieving their full potential in other areas. In some cases, it just prevents (especially women) young adults to get serious jobs because they look superficial or bubbly. Some model-skinny girls are constantly accused of having eating disorders. So what looks easy from outside is significantly different for what is reality sometimes. For me, I have been blessed with an above average beauty and mind and went through some tough choices early in life to make sure one doesn't shadow the other and I get judged by what is appropriate in different environments. It is a constant balancing act.

13 years ago

HelenInCanada

Veteran

Very interesting and worthy discussion. First, I have to say that beyond symmetry or height or colouring - beauty to me is conveyed in the "essence" and emotional health of a person. That might sound hokey, but it's true. Their attitude, how they treat ME and others, their general manner, how they dress and carry themselves subconsciously contributes to how attractive - or even beautiful - I consider someone! If someone doesn't appreciate that, they're probably not worth your time! Whether or not beauty alone is the holy grail of a woman, I'm not convinced, because the world has seen many pretty girls destroyed by abuse and harassment to the point that it can be a curse if you're in the wrong place. Also, I've seen conventionally stunning women with horrific posture and a sloppy way of dressing, and it's not aesthetically impressive, and vice versa - and many others in between who are leading fantastic lives.

More on this later - must run! Looking forward to more responses!

13 years ago

Linda

Active Member

Oh, what a perfectly fascinating topic!! And great reading, from everyone!!

I never have been beautiful, but most definitely have dressed and behaved as though I was, and I am certain it made a distinct difference. It seemed *easier* when I was younger, to do that. Today, it definitely takes more of an effort, I can't just whoosh out in any old look. I also used to be able to shop anywhere and find perfect fits, and today, I have to try on, and try on, and try on, and sometimes I still can't make a look work. So that's been humbling.

It even extends to areas that we probably would not -- consciously -- imagine. Think about celebrities and their political stances or the issues that they support. If your frumpy next door neighbor (or, pick your own non-beautiful person) espoused that cause, I don't think you would feel drawn to it, or as drawn to it. I think that is fascinating -- how pretty images can *sell* something, from Lazy Boy furniture to the plight of Yemenis.

In some ways this is a real motivator -- if I look my best (including yes, working out, as well as dressing what I am now, well), I can get more accomplished and also be treated better. I don't know that this is how it ought to be, however, I DO believe that aiming to be healthy and fit, which should mean being vibrant and beautiful, is not a bad thing for anyone -- and maybe, particularly for today's USA.

13 years ago

Aziraphale

Veteran

This question hits all kinds of hot buttons!

There are some very wise answers here. Here's my two cents: being pretty does make life easier in some ways, and harder in others. I'll explain, based on my own experience.

I am conventionally pretty. Not a ravishing beauty, but pretty -- small and lithe, with fair skin, clear gray-green eyes, delicate features and an attractive smile. I have found certain 'beauty privilege' perks to be true, such as getting out of traffic tickets or getting attention in places where you need service, like shops and restaurants. I see these perks as a minor convenience at best. Conventional beauty was also a convenience when I was dating. It's easy to attract men when you're cute and cheerful. It makes you approachable. That said, a woman's confidence has FAR MORE to do with being attractive than her looks. There are countless women with unconventional looks who are veritable magnets for the opposite sex (or the same sex -- let's be inclusive), and the characteristic that unifies them is that they are comfortable in their own skin. This reads as confidence, and is very appealing.

It may also be true that good looks help in the career department -- it's possible that my physical self has influenced the impression I give at job interviews -- but I have no way of knowing for sure if that's true. And to be honest, I would much prefer that it is not. I would prefer to be hired based on competence alone. It irks me that looks even play a role, as the experts say they do.

But it's also true that I've spent AS MANY hours agonizing over blemishes in the mirror as the next girl, and wishing that I had x instead of y. There was a time when I was so paralyzed by the fear of getting fat that my weight dwindled to 85 pounds. I couldn't eat, sleep or concentrate. I almost failed out of university. It took me years to work past that. I was probably thirty before I was fully healed psychologically. Is anorexia more likely to strike slender, pretty girls? They say so. Perhaps a lot of our self-worth is invested in our physical appearance. In any case, it's not healthy.

13 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

Well, that's a question. No joke. I don't know. I'm so odd and out of it. When it comes to convention, I have big BIG problems. It's full on panic for me.

Have I told y'all my story yet about my worst date ever? I was set up with this HOT guy by all conventional standards. He was conventional in every other way too. I fell asleep at dinner. Literally! I fell out of my chair! I am NOT joking.

BIG problems.

ETA: Can someone tell me what the convention for beauty is, and how I can know it for certain? I've learned about "small featured blondes" and I've also learned being a small featured Scandinavian blonde doesn't count, so... to be honest, they seem like an anthropological curiosity to me. A rare exotic tribe found in the jungles of... well not Manhattan. Where are they found?

13 years ago

Meredith1953

Veteran

I never felt pretty or even particularly feminine growing up. I had freckles and superwavy hair. I didn't feel very confident about myself and appearance. I fought going gray for quite awhile and interestingly enough, it was when I embraced my gray, cutting my hair very short that I think I look most like the person I feel like on the inside. I finally feel like my outside is starting to reflect my inner self. We are all constantly changing and becoming our most authentic selves. I know that sounds hokey but I truly believe it. Beauty is about LOVING yourself and others and striving to be your best self for yourself and those you love.

13 years ago

Mo

(website)

Veteran

Hmm, I guess I am 'cute' by traditional standards but no one has accused me of being a beauty lol. I think it's all relative, as well. I'm from L.A. ( my whole family is, 3 generations back actually) and even though I'm a native, plenty of would be starlet types move there to be discovered and it changes the landscape. So in my birthplace, I'm probably not even noticeable. But in small town USA here I am probably on the radar in comparison to my surroundings. I have had periods where I think, hmm if only my nose wasn't so manly, I'd probably look a lot prettier. But a lady I know who was always the prettiest girl in the room, is having a really hard time since turning about 45 and no longer having that as her identity. She still bartends in the casino, surrounded by cute young things and I think she is a little adrift. So beauty may be helpful but if you rely on it, be assured it doesn't last and you're going to have to dig a little deeper if that's all you've banked on in your life!

13 years ago

celia

Veteran

Up to this day I do not know if I am beautiful or not(and this is not a question to you , I'm not fishing for compliments ). Sometimes I do feel I am , other times I feel I'm not.
Having lived in different countries and been around different cultures I know that the concept of beauty differs from place to place and even from person to person.
I admit that I took full advantage of the situations where I knew I was considered beautiful/attractive.In the ones I know that I'm considered ugly I try to be the 'smart one'.
I also know that beautiful or not I have better service from stores and other services if I 'dress up' instead of my mommy look.
About the way I see beauty in other people it's not by their list of physical attributes.I've met women that had all the attributes on the list(tall/blonde/skynny) who were not beautiful because the way they moved, talked, walked were not that beautiful and interesting and also met women that were very regular looking but light up a room with their presence.
And i guess it also depends what you want in life. There are gorgeous actresses out there that look like they have everything in their favour but haven't found someone to share their lives with.

13 years ago

Victoria

(website)

Veteran

when I was growing up, I never thought of myself as pretty even though I heard it from my mother and relatives. All the girls in my class were tall, blond and buxom and I was tiny, skinny and had dark hair and was super pale. I was called "ugly" by other girls and one time a girl told me I looked like a gypsy(because I had very long dark hair when I was growing up) and believe me, it wasn't a compliment.
And the fact that I always looked younger than my actual age didn't do anything for my self esteem. I mean I was 16 and people thought i was 13, lol. It was not until I got to 18 and boys all of the sudden stopped ignoring me. I'm still petite and thin and look younger than my age(I will be 40 next month) but now I see it as an advantage. As I got older I stopped caring about what other people thought about my appearence. I don't think I'm conventionally pretty but I've been called "interesting" and "striking" and I will pick it any day over "pretty".
I also met many women who weren't pretty yet acted as if they were and people were treating as if they were too. Its all in the attitude

13 years ago

rachylou

Veteran

p.s. MaryK, you're amazing! I can't imagine you in a polyester suit and suntan hose, but I feel I love you for it!

13 years ago

Sona

Veteran

Very interesting discussion and a lot of food for thought. I agree with so many of the opinions expressed that I kept saying 'exactly' in my mind as I read on.

personal reflection:
It also made me realize the reason I don't like short hair on myself: I don't feel traditionally pretty in shorter styles. Yet I look at Angie or Kyle or Vicki or Suz or Claire and think : GORGEOUS!. Why? ( not sure.)

cultural reflection:
As a developing economy that is hugely brand conscious and the 'producer' of many recent Miss universe's and Miss World's the Indan perception of traditional beauty has changed from tall ( we are not a tall race), fair skinned ( again ironic) and 'slim' to tall, fair skinned and size zero. Fly by the night dieticians and weight loss boot camps advertise 'guaranteed weight loss' trying to tur you into a taller, skinner, 'traditional' beauty.

My American reflection:
My daughter ( only six years old) often laments the fact that she is 'brown'.
When I see a gorgeous blonde, blue eyed nurse who oozes youth and vitality and the midwest farm girl lilt: I think " what a beauty".
Yet people stop and tell me how gorgeous my daughter is or 'how pretty' I am. Does my daughter think a blonde, blue eyed friend is beautfiul because she is 'common, everyday, accepted norm American beauty" and do other think of me or my daughter as 'exotic beauty?'.

13 years ago

Vicki

(website)

Veteran

Such a great OT post, IK, and I so appreciate this. I have never felt pretty due to my long chin, old acne scars, giraffe neck, etc. Possibly confirming that, but in a meant-to-be-loving way, my husband has said before, "you aren't pretty, but you are cute and I prefer cute to pretty." (He sees Catherine Zeta-Jones or Sophia Loren as pretty and a Goldie Hawn or Jennifer Aniston as cute).

That feels more like an "ouch" to me, but guess what, it doesn't matter, because I feel good about myself, no matter what. I do my best, haven't yet had any facial surgery, although the thought does entice me sometime, but I don't want to look like Bruce Jenner or Joan Rivers.

A beautiful smile and carrying confidence within ourselves are the best beauty treatments around. To put a little balance to the earlier paragraph, while I was out last night on my own doing something, my husband was having dinner with a friend and as they each walked to their separate cars, the friend said "I told my girlfriend who I was having dinner with and she said, 'oh the one with the pretty wife.'" My husband told me the story this morning. Go figure. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

13 years ago

jayne

Veteran

It has been joyous and saddening to read the responses here. Every one is effected by not really feeling good enough. I have the cute face, but have been overweight my entire life. And losing the weight made me feel great. But the truth is, it really really doesn't matter to me, inside. It was learning the heart breaking lesson of loving myself for all the positive things I am, that made me happy. I even love the thighs that caused boys to sing 'fat bottom girls' at me...way ...back ...when.....Because this is my body. It takes me on horse ride, walks in forests and lets me cuddle with kids on sofa. And I am loved by the people who know the real me, despite being less than perfect in many ways. Yes, it matters to the girl behind a counter sometimes that I am not ideal, but to the people who matter to me, my looks matter not at all.

13 years ago

Transcona Shannon

Veteran

I so appreciate everyone's honest and candid comments here - it's so brave to post ones true feelings on such a personal issue.

I'm only 5 feet tall and have had weight issues off and on my entire life. During my teen years, I was quite heavy and certainly endured my fair share of teasing and bullying. I wore glasses (which were not fashionable then) and had braces. To top it off, I had an older sister who was busty, 5'9", green eyes and long wavy auburn hair...it seemed so UNFAIR. Those years helped me form deep opinions about my looks that led to pretty low self esteem. It has taken me years to get past that.

I am definitely not traditionally pretty and maybe only borderline cute. But I'm ok with that. Being a caring, funny, giving, loyal person is FAR more important than being pretty. Thanks to YLF I do the best with what I've been given looks wise and make up for the rest by being a decent person with a good sense of humour. My husband has loved me equally at my heaviest and at my smallest so it's all good.

13 years ago

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