Wow, great thread and it has been enlightening to read everyone's responses.

I remember feeling very unattractive growing up -- between parents telling me I was overweight and kids telling me I looked weird (grew up Asian in a mostly white suburb--once two kids I was babysitting told me my nose was smushed and looked funny, whee!).

So it's interesting that now I am in my mid-40s and, although not traditionally pretty, feel pretty confident about my looks and, more importantly, who I am. A friend of mine said that I smile a lot and am approachable and people respond to that. Also, like others have said, confidence goes a long way. And I must be projecting something because I keep getting hit on by guys in their 20s :b

cciele! Me too! I think it's a combination of shows like "Cougartown" and me spending too much time at the roller rink. What is a childless single straight man doing at a roller rink alone?

I have been mulling this over all morning and here are my thoughts...

Some of the most beautiful women I know are not what I would consider "pretty."

Some of the prettiest women I know are not very pleasant to be around.

They say beauty is only skin deep, but I disagree. Pretty is only skin deep. Beauty is so much deeper and encompasses all of who a woman is.

Some things that I think make a woman beautiful are...
bright caring eyes
warm smile
inner strength
the wisdom that comes with age
confidence in who she is
humility
a caring heart
sincerity
honesty and integrity

everything else physically is just frosting on the cake....

So, honestly, I will take beautiful over pretty any day of the week.

Wow, so many interesting -- and some very poignant -- responses. Giving me lots to think about. I have some observations and thoughts from the viewpoint of someone who probably ranked just enough on the "conventionally pretty" scale while growing up, to have received some of the benefits of "attractiveness" and to experience a little fear of losing attractiveness with age.

But I have a deadline right now, so I will just interject a tiny bit of humor. Some of the comments on the privileges of attractiveness are reminding me of the 30Rock episodes when Liz Lemon dates Jon Hamm's character -- how he lives in "the bubble" that normal-looking people can never penetrate. If any of you have seen it, you know what I'm talking about! I love the scene in the restaurant where he has to order off the menu while covering his face.

I haven't seen that show, but have any of you seen the series "White Collar?" The main character, Neal Caffrey played by Matt Bomer, is so crazy-ridiculous handsome that he glides through life in a way that most of us can only dream of. I always find it super fascinating.

I think what pretty mostly means is facial symmetry.

I haven't seen that, Mary, but the idea of Jon Hamm's character is pretty much the same, although he is totally clueless that he enjoys this privilege. He thinks everyone gets the marvelous treatment he enjoys, so he sees the world as being full of rainbows and ponies!

Vildy, if that's true, I am sooooo not pretty. I'm extremely asymmetrical. My chin's crooked, my eyes are two different sizes, etc. And that's just my face!

Yeah, never been pretty - strong features, red hair, freckles crooked teeth. It used to really bother me when I was younger, particularly because I developed a fairly "bombshell" type body and the combination of not pretty and big breasts seems to be a license for a certain group of men to behave badly. I have poor posture today and I think this dates from hunching over in my teens to hide myself.

One of my best friends is very pretty, and I certainly noticed that people treated her with more respect and kindness back then. However, in retrospect I can see that she also took a lot of care with how she presented herself- she was interested in fashion, she wore make-up and she took pains with her grooming. I wonder if people responded to that just as much as her beauty.

As I have gotten older, I find not being pretty matters less and less. I have power and autonomy in most areas of my life, which makes me far less dependent on the kindness of strangers and the impact their assessment of me might have on my life. I feel more attractive now than I ever have and certainly spend more time and money on how I present myself than I ever have before.

I guess my view is that beauty confers a type of power that is valuable when you are young and don't have much, but becomes less important as you age and hopefully acquire the power that comes with wisdom, experience and self-knowledge. And if you can manage to value and care for your appearance even if you aren't pretty, you will be attractive to others and to some extent that will close the gap between pretty and not-pretty.

I googled pretty vs beautiful and found this blog post.... he said it much more eloquently than I did....

http://www.hopeandhealingforli.....ourselves/

I am (I think) the newest newcomer on this thread, and I have to say that as I have read your posts and bios, and seen some of the photos for the WIWs, YOU HAVE ALL INTIMIDATED ME WITH YOUR BEAUTY and with your class!

So like the wiser of us have already said better, whether any one of us is or is not a classically beautiful physical form, really, really does not matter in terms of what Matters.

And I definitely think that making the best of what we like most about ourselves, is the best way really to "look pretty" and to reach our own goals.

It is fascinating how rare the person is who is entirely and totally fine with themselves -- whether it's that physical appearance, or some other traits, no? Isn't there a saying somewhere .... "Beauty fades, ..." although, now Googling, all I find is Judge Judy saying "dumb is forever" as the rejoinder!! Lol!

My yoga guru likes to say that life IS change, and as sure as one can be gorgeous at one point in time, nothing guarantees that will continue. Some of us have been what we think of as "not pretty," some "pretty," and most of us have been both at different times of our lives. It certainly is not a nose or a hip that defines who any one of you are, and that is what, I think, is the important point.

I want to give everyone on this thread a HUGE big hug.

(((HUGS)))

This may be a little off topic perhaps, but does anyone else think that someone looks more beautiful or pretty on the outside when you love them as a person on the inside (and vice versa). I am very positively affected by smiles, dancing eyes, people who laugh easily, a sense of humour, a gentle demeanour, generosity, humility and warmth, that I end up judging overall physical beauty based on personality traits.

Angie, totally. I'm going to say right now that I was not attracted to my DH at all when we first me. In fact, I had him (wrongly) pegged as a typical Boston Irish guy full of sports stats and attitude. As I got to know him (we shared an apartment in Honolulu while working at the same firm in law school), I realized he was brilliant, warm, funny, kind, gentle, loyal, extremely open-minded, and secure about himelf. And suddenly he was HAWT!

Even if he is still full of sports stats and attitude.

I LOVE Queen Mum's post....LOVED it.

Some of the most beautiful women I have ever met have been the ugliest on the inside!

I am also attracted to the same things as Angie. Being conveniently unattractive or extremely attractive can be both a blessing and a curse on both ends of the spectrum!

Angie: Yes. Definitely we see the people we love as more beautiful. My late Mother had a name for it "Looking at someone we love with our heart's eye instead of our mind's eye.".

QM, I like that post you linked to, very much. So true.

Some of the most "pretty" girls I've known have had some terribly low self-esteem. I think growing up pretty *can* be accompanied by so much fawning over the person's physical beauty, that other aspects of themselves are not perceived to be valued. A young girl hears over and over how pretty she is, but how about how intelligent or witty or talented or kind or generous? Our culture doesn't always do a great job of emphasizing the development of traits beyond physical beauty for young women.

Yes.

All of my friends are gorgeous. Always!

Oh, goodness. If I like someone, of course I perceive him/her as attractive! I call it the 'I like you' filter. It works both ways, too. I was watching a clip of Ann Coulther on the Daily Show the other day -- and man, do I violently dislike that woman -- and I was struck by how exceptionally unattractive she is. But then, as I said to my husband, I'd probably see her as pretty if I wasn't so turned off by her politics and grating personality.

It's hard for me to see why people find Sarah Palin pretty for that same reason, Elizabeth! I know she IS attractive, but to me, she's, well, a pit bull in lipstick.

Una -- lol 'pit bull in lipstick' -- now I'm going to think that every time I see her.

Ironkurtin -- my original reply was an attempt to answer your question as to whether being good looking in the conventional sense makes a person's life easier or harder. It's been bugging me all day, because I think I gave the impression that I think I'm hot stuff. I don't! Like I said, I'm no great beauty. But I think it's important, when it comes to your physical self, to call it like it is and appreciate what you've got, and then to not dwell on it too much. We are all different. We all have beauty, internal and external, and external beauty is so, so subjective. And what makes a woman beautiful on the inside is a huge topic, and I don't think that's what your original post was about.

Fascinating, universal, eternal topic.

A few years ago, for a couple of years, I was really tight with this woman a few years younger than me who was considered the winning combo of beautiful and approachable, and hanging out with her showed me a world I had never known. We'd go out for lunch, and fairly often there would be free glasses of wine or a free dessert placed on our table. Guys chatted her up. It was kind of compelling and heartbreaking at the same time.

But as so many of you have noted, this type of person, who is fawned on from the start, ends up having major issues to deal with as they inevitably get older. My ex-friend (we didn't part because of looks--she was actually very supportive of me, and extremely influential in an initial phase of my style journey), I learned at one point, would not let anyone see her without cosmetics. She felt ugly. I was so disturbed by that.

I grew up in a very snobbish, looks- and clothes-conscious environment, and was a total ugly duckling. It was not till these past few years, in fact, that I've come to realize I am cute, and capable of looking nice, even before factoring in the new wardrobe! Something seemed to pull together for me. I'm not deluded into thinking I'm special, but I'm getting less self-conscious and enjoying a burgeoning confidence I never had.

And I think because of this late-blooming, I am not burdened by a lot of things that the women who did go through that younger, "hot" stage are experiencing. I see women in my writing group who are perfectly cute, and are lamenting how guys don't check them out anymore. In comparison, I'm only starting to deal with men noticing me--it's really odd! (It's also possible that I just didn't pick up on it before...I was so clueless and doubtful at the same time).

And I do think it's true that women have been bred or socialized or what have you to feel incredibly self-critical, even the most conventionally beautiful.

I'm really ecstatic to have a 23-year-old daughter who is happy with how she looks. NOT obsessed, not arrogant, just content in her belief that she is pretty...she loves clothes and shoes and is also a brilliant artist, super-smart and an overall wonderful person.

I think I could go on for another 12 pages with my version of all these universal beliefs and experiences. Thanks for bringing this to the table and thanks to everyone for demonstrating that it keeps getting better and better.

Oh boy, Mochi, have you hit a nail on the head about the whole aging beauty phenomenon -- the men-don't-check-me-out-anymore thing. I find it so interesting how women who have no desire to actually be picked up by guys are worried about whether men find them attractive! And I have occasionally been guilty of that myself as I've gotten older.

I think that fear actually comes through in many people -- they carry themselves less confidently and become less attractive. Conversely, people who grew up without the "burden" of having to maintain that level of attractiveness from youth often cultivate confidence from other, much deeper and more meaningful aspects of their identity. They carry themselves with more confidence as they age and become even more beautiful!

On the subject of looks, after all these years (30!) together with my husband, I no longer notice how tall he is. I'm 5'5 and he's 6'7. My kids and I don't even SEE it. However when I meet someone NEW who is 6'7" I'm struck by how tall they are...LOL It's actually disproportionate. I can't tell if they are taller or as tall as my hubby unless he's standing right there. I truly don't see his height. (And didn't after about 30 minutes of knowing him.) Same thing happens with any other people I've met. They may be "drop dead gorgeous" or not at all, but after a few minutes of conversation with them my idea of them begins to be shaped and I no longer "see" their striking physical attributes.

So in that respect I've always taught my kids that looks will last about 1/2 an hour as an attraction. After that they (or their significant other) better have something more to offer or they're gonna be pretty bored on those dates...

It worked, by the way! They've all chosen amazingly interesting people to date and they are all smitten! LOL

Kim, that's so funny you bring that up! It reminded me of the time a couple of years ago when someone asked me how my husband (who is also very tall 6'6") got the scar on his face, and it took me a second to remember what they were talking about. I had almost completely forgotten he *has* a scar on his face, I just don't see it. He got it as a kid when he very nearly clotheslined himself on a barbed wire fence. *shudder*

Speaking of height, Shannon, I have a younger sister who is around 5'10" (due to her scoliosis, we're not sure of her exact height). I'm 5'3" and that's still something I'm jealous about. But with you, I shall not forget your husband's descriptor of you as a sexy mime. I mean, could you get a better and more unique compliment? And when I see you in all your recent pics positively beaming, it really says so much. I get so much vicarious happiness with stuff like this on YLF.

I've read every single thought on here and felt utterly perplexed as to my response to this issue. I guess it was because I'm not even sure how I would define myself.

I've spent some time thinking about it and decided I've been confused because I believe I have an "unique"(?) combination of having the ability to look very pretty from some angles and on some occasions and in some instances and looking very average or even unattractive on others.

I've have never been called or considered myself conventionally "pretty", (I have a big, crooked nose for starters!) but I have been told quite a lot throughout my life how I am "unusually" beautiful. (How is that for a turn of phrase?)

I've gone through stages in my life where as a teenager I was told by some older boys how I was so ugly I should consult a plastic surgeon. I've then had the same boys who made that previous comment say a few years later as "men", how I had (surprisingly) turned out to be "gorgeous" and subsequently ask me for my phone number. (Can you guess my response?) I had a lovely woman tell me just in the last year, how I have a truly beautiful "regal" looking face. I also had the local butcher call me "Sir" yesterday... See? I'm honest to goodness NOT KIDDING - I don't do things by halves. Make up and hair matter, ladies!

As such, my view of the world is that yes, I am being honest when I say, most certainly, I do receive more positive attention from the broader community when I am looking "pretty". Likewise, there have been occasions I have felt invisible when I'm not looking crash hot.

Interestingly, as I'm getting older and well into my late 30's, while I am more and more interested with style (hence my YLF obsession), paradoxically, I couldn't care less whether the outside world considers me to still be beautiful.

To me, being totally honest here, the only person that really matters to me about finding me gorgeous is the opinion of my husband. And bless him, he does - whether it be a "good" day, an "average" day, or a "bad" day. Because I know that whilst he admits he likes and appreciates the outside wrapping, it's the inside package he loves.

In keeping with this line of thought, I can therefore extend to say when I meet people, or with my friends, I'm always attracted to the person as an entire package, not just the allure of the outside "wrapping".

Goodness I hope I make sense - I'm now starting to confuse even myself!

Anyway, thank you very much for this incredibly thought provoking thread, it has been a very fascinating read!

The funny thing is, I am utterly comfortable with myself - but I do wish sometimes I was more jolie than laide, you know? Kindof like I sometimes wish I had long hair.

Conventional beauty is a funny thing. I've seen the way a lot of runway models look and I would not call most of them "conventional beauties"... In fact, I tend to notice more "unconventional beauties"! Having formal training as a makeup artist, I tend to look at faces a lot - and objectively. I tend to like working with unconventional faces because their faces are more interesting.

As for myself - I never thought I was pretty at all. I've been told this as a child, but often, people commented on my body. When I was a kid I was a very skinny kid and was often told, "Well she's pretty but look at her - she's too skinny. How could you call that pretty?" I think my teenage years have taken an even bigger blow to my self-esteem as boys would often go for my friends, and that I was the "ugly nerdy girl." It was heart-aching.

But when I look at my face objectively (I've learned to do that - now if only I can do this with my body), I would say I have a more "conventional" look. I have round features and a face that's a round oval, huge eyes, and a small nose. I never appreciated my facial features until I hit 30 a couple years ago.

Wow...thanks Mochi. That's very sweet of you to say.

This is an emotional minefield for so many women, certainly myself included, and I could write more than anyone would care to read on this subject. I will honestly tell you that I struggle mightily with this aspect of aging. Yet I also remember my mother's oft-repeated reminder that "beauty is as beauty does." It was something I needed to hear way back then, and it resonates still. Our society is really out of whack in this regard. We set unrealistic, unattainable standards of physical perfection, and many of us, myself included, buy into it emotionally, if not intellectually. At the same time, we accept or celebrate bad, shallow behavior, showcasing it on the most popular reality TV shows.