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On sexual harassment and fashion

Aziraphale

Veteran

Joyce started a thread over in Off Topic (hilarious, if you haven't seen it) about Peruvian men accidentally catcalling their mothers (who are all decked out and in disguise) and subsequently getting yelled at and smacked with handbags. But it actually reminded me of this nagging insecurity I've always had, and I think it might be appropriate for the general fashion discussion.

Here's the thing: I've never been catcalled, or sexually harassed in any way (or if I have been, I have no memory of it). While on the one hand I'm grateful not to have had to deal with unwanted attention, I've always been a bit worried that I'm not attractive enough to elicit such attention. Is it because of the way I dress? From what I understand, harassment isn't related to sexy high heels and tight dresses...but I'm actually hoping that's the case, because if it's not, then what else is else is off-putting about me? Am I so un-womanly? Or is it a positive thing -- do I look like the kind of woman who isn't easily objectified? (I can be a little, er, aggressive).

It's quite likely I'm less attractive than I used to be, so it could simply be that. But back then I was cute (or so I thought), and honestly, men never tried it. Ever. And I would occasionally read articles about sexual harassment, and although I believed the women who had been harassed, I certainly couldn't relate.

If anyone else has never been harassed, I'd love to hear it. Is it how you dress? How you walk? Where you live? I know this is a touchy subject, but I'm feeling a bit vulnerable about getting old right now and I'm wondering if I've been delusional all my life. I'd appreciate some anecdotes from people who have had similar experiences.

Dressing

43 replies

Latest reply was from Aziraphale

gradfashionista

(website)

Veteran

Sexual harassment is ultimately about power, not sexual attraction, so keep that in mind. In the last neighbourhood I lived in, I didn't receive as much as harassment as some other women I knew. They wore more revealing but appropriate clothing, and were "cuter" than me. I avoid eye contact on the street, and don't smile at those who try to make contact. Recently, while riding the subway, I was sexually harassed by a man telling me what a sexy body I had. I was wearing slim BF jeans, a long sweater, a leather jacket. I couldn't help but feel that behind his remarks were presumptions about how I actually looked, and the desire to wield power over me.

To repeat, it's not a compliment, but an exertion of power.

Aziraphale

Veteran

I absolutely understand that it's an exertion of power...that's why I'm hoping that there's something about me that says "back off" rather than something about me that says "woof". ;-P

gradfashionista

(website)

Veteran

Hah, I think you probably give off clear signals that you don't want to be approached.
Back off and get your own sandwich.

Lucy

Veteran

I'd be pleased never to have it happen! It happened to me heaps as a younger woman, and still regularly enough now at 44.

I think it stems from 2 things
1) I'm quite curvy and small, so traditionally "feminine" looking. Boobs, waist, butt, and shorter than all men. There's something weird about men and power there, IMO.
2) I think I must be friendly looking/approachable, and this is the flip side of it. My friends are constantly amazed that in any group, I am always the one approached by the homeless/ mentally unwell/ needs to talk/needs money/having a crisis. They think I don't have a resting bitch face or something. I see it as too sides of the same issue.
I honestly don't think it has anything to do with attractiveness, but maybe a more "vulnerable" look is the thing. I'd rather it went away, frankly.

binkle

Veteran

My experience with street harassment has been in major cities (Washington, D.C. and Manhattan). And in my case it was often NOT of a "complimentary" kind - loud proclamations of physical flaws or presumptions of sexual orientation. More "traditionally" attractive friends and colleagues got the "compliments" if one could call it that. Always unpleasant and aggressive.

Aziraphale

Veteran

@Lucy -- I hear you. It's not like I want to be harassed, and I get how yucky it is for those who are! But you know, I am short. Like, 5'1". And slender. With a 32DD bust. And sometimes I do wear high heels and tight clothes. Granted, I almost never take public transit, or walk down the street in sketchy areas downtown...but still. Maybe it's me who has resting bitchface!

Aziraphale

Veteran

Binkle, again, I do understand that it's aggressive and unpleasant. I promise, I am not sad that I'm not getting catcalled! Just a little insecure, because even when I was young and pretty it never happened. It might be that I've led a sheltered life?

Suz

(website)

Veteran

What gradfashionista said -- harassment is an attempt to wield power and one can be "negatively" harassed (i.e. compared to other women in an invidious way) -- which to me absolutely proves this theory. It is no compliment, although it might pretend to be.

Flirtation is a different matter. That can be fun and equal for both parties.

And courtliness is also different, in my opinion -- although you rarely see that these days. (It's true that the latter is tricky as it can also be rooted in patriarchal attitudes and condescension, but let's give the true gentleman the benefit of the doubt for now. I still fondly remember the courtly attentions of my ex-father-in-law, for example. He happened to hail from the Netherlands.)

I think young women and teens get harassed most often. (Again...it's a power thing.) Older women get harassed much less.

Where you work, live, walk, and commute will affect this. Some sub-cultures seem more tolerant of harassment than others. So if you live in one neighbourhood you might experience it more than you would in another.

Time of year and climate also affects this. In our cold Canadian climate people tend to spend less time outdoors and more of that time bundled up -- and that leaves less opportunity for harassment, period. It also leaves less opportunity for some of the more pleasant aspects of café culture.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Sounds like it might be -- yes -- the places you've lived/ been.

The worst I experienced was in my 20s when I was quite poor and I lived in a neighbourhood where there were a lot of prostitutes. That wasn't "harassment" -- it was downright attempts to... well, you know. It was nobody's fault in a way -- I just happened to have to walk home through a "zone" and I would get mistaken for one of the women working there. And sometimes the guys were drunk and would get angry when I said no. My strategy was to walk with determination and refuse eye contact and it kept me (relatively) safe physically but I still got harassed.

rachylou

Veteran

You have to walk in the right places. There's a real cultural element. Also things have changed a lot. It's not ok and it's not the thing.

However, well, you *can* throw down the gauntlet for catcalls. You don't have to be wearing anything revealing and it's not your face, but it helps to present with sass. I used to do Femme Fatale for the opera and ballet, cut like a knife sharp, but I'd be swathed from neck to ankle in wool against the cold. Still, I'd get catcalls and alotta doors opened for me. I can't be bothered anymore. No one better get in my way between me and the warm indoors!

Being arty, btw, will discourage catcalling. Arty people make you eat weird food. No one wants to risk actually catching someone arty on a lark...

Joyce B

Veteran

Az, I should have lived where you live although I don't know where that is, it surely sounds much better than what I got. I am happy to hear that there exist women who have not been harassed. I think it all depends on the local "culture" (or lack thereof). There are places where men feel that they have to say something about every woman they see, particularly if they are with their peers (the men, of course, the women would mostly be alone).
I also gave vibes that I didn't want to be approached but it did not work many times, maybe you just live in a place where people are more respectful? Anyway, just be happy that you have not had to deal with unwanted attention. For me it was much worse when I was younger so there is something good about getting older.
But really the RB face does not prevent creeps from being inappropriate. Of course if you look helpless you probably get more of that.
I am glad you enjoyed my other post, Az.

Anonymous

I have reassuring news. Cat calling occurs in certain sectors in certain neighborhoods. You might have the very good fortune to never have to stroll those streets or visit those neighborhoods. That means the environment that you spend the most time in doesn't promote such disrespect.

In addition to the above environmental factors, how you carry yourself is yet more thing to consider. I walk purposefully (good posture/long stride/intent on a destination). I am do not experience cat calling because my posture makes it look like I will turn around and hit them in the face. And smile while I do it.

Most men that stoop to this level are cowards anyway.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Tricky to answer this without implying that women that are harassed in major or minor ways are therefore asking for it. I do think harassment stems from a complex mix of cultural, social and individual factors. I do NOT think your personal attractiveness is an important factor, but rather how your appearance, posture, context all interact with the aggressor's. And by appearance I do not mean your very specific and personal looks but rather you as reduced down to a category at that moment by that aggressor.

cindysmith

Veteran

I noticed that I never got any unwanted attention when I was dressed for work as a stagehand. The job generally required all black, and sensible shoes or boots. And my most valuable tool as a stagehand was a pocketknife, which I wore visibly clipped to my pocket for easy access because it really was my most used tool. Whenever I was dressed for work, I was also in the work mindset, which was very no-nonsense, because the work was hard and it lasted all freaking day and night and the touring crews were generally fairly cranky. So I'm pretty sure I was giving off vibes that said something like "I will freaking shank you" or something LOL

All that to say that it probably isn't that you're unattractive or anything like that. It's probably not about your looks, but that dudes sense that it wouldn't be wise. you could be projecting an air of "I have pepper spray and I will use it". Also, like it's been said, you could be fortunate enough to be in an area where it wasn't acceptable.

rebekahphoto

Veteran

I used to get catcalled a fair amount, and I think it typically was the most when in a city environment or construction sites--some of the worst. when I walk fast and have a resting bitch face, I must give out a "don't mess with me" vibe as I feel there are less catcalls & I generally can just go about my business un-harassed.

On a funny note, once in my mid-twenties on the way home from work during rush hour my car broke down on Denny (a busy street in seattle) I was able to coast up on the curb, and there was a phone booth! yay! It also was directly in front of a strip club, and that day I was wearing my vintage leopard jacket combined with my black skirt and long blond hair.... I suddenly started hearing horns honk, and honk and honk!

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Construction sites are the worst. It is a show-off thing for men to do in front of other men. Construction sites or other places that men congregate without women.

It used to happen to me a lot when I waited tables, too. And occasionally, although less often, when working retail.

rabbit

Veteran

Echoing that my experience has been it has everything to do with the location and the men that are hanging out there, and not that much to do with the woman walking by. I also think it's more likely when there is more than one guy (even if the others are only observers) and only one woman, or if a solo guy it's someone passing by quickly on foot or in a car (i.e. they are less likely to have to deal with your reaction and therefore feel emboldened). It's almost always had an element of power differential that I can remember.

I've experienced it most often in cities in Mexico, Italy and India/Nepal outside of construction sites in cities in the US, but there it's sometimes been closer to flirting vs. displaying aggression, or at least that's how I perceived it on some occasions. The two kinds of approaches sometimes felt very different to me in times I can remember. I don't remember catcalling in North America ever feeling friendly.

Kaelyn

Veteran

Like others have said (I only skimmed, so I apologize if this is redundant), catcalling is about power rather than attraction. I've actually also read that it's more for men than for women. Men are more likely to do it in the presence of other men. It's a way of establishing dominance. A stupid one, but there you have it.

That said, I totally understand how you feel. I have experienced relatively little sexual harassment of any kind. I have friends who are harassed all the time, and I think the last time I was catcalled was five years ago. And it's not just that, I don't seem to attract much attention from men in general. It's always been like this. I don't mind it so much now, but it used to really bother me.

Carla

Veteran

What others have said - when I was younger and walking alone (usually too and from work) and in a dress with longer and redder hair. I still get occaisional harassment when out for a training run or bike ride. Usually random dumb-ass stuff shouted from guys in trucks. It used to scare me when I was younger. Now I just think - Idiot! - and keep on going.

FWIW - It can happen to men too. Both DSs have been 'wolf whistled' by women while out for training runs, and had someone shout something out at them based on their appearance. DH (when he was younger) and DS#2 have had strangers (men) try to provoke a fight with them just because they were big (tall, muscular) men! (Neither are fighters.)

I don't think it has anything to do with 'fashion' but it may have to do with appearance skewing strongly feminine or masculine and giving off a 'vibe' even if it is a stereotype. It provokes a response in folks, that is generally not acted on, but in some cases such as when inhibitions are lowered, goes uncensored.

i believe it IS different then the appreciative double-take or the genuine compliment 'looking good!' - from either sex, given to either sex.

Anonymous

I've noticed that amount of street harassment I've experienced has depended on a few odd things. It was worst when I was in my twenties, on sunny days, and times when I wore my hair long. However, I don't think it has much to do with the way you present yourself. It's happened to me when I was in sweats and once 8 months pregnant. I agree with the others who said it has more to do with power dynamics and perhaps appearing vulnerable.

Astrid

Veteran

I can't remember any occasion of being harassed either. And it's not just because I never went to certain places. I had friends tell me stories who were walking around in the same places I did. I also never get asked out and people usually assume I'm not interested or in a relationship. I don't know why. Someone once told me I was giving off these vibes of "don't talk to me" and "this is my personal space no step further". Although it was also implicated that me wearing comfortable shoes with a pretty dress was an indicator of not wanting any attention at all, so I couldn't really take them seriously.

Summer

Veteran

Goodness, it's a long time since I've had to worry about this sort of attention!
From my mid-teens, I would get whistled at quite regularly - mostly when passing construction sites. This would be back in the '60s, when that kind of behaviour was thought acceptable. I remember feeling very embarrassed, and hurrying past as fast as I could - probably not the best way to deal with it, but I was young. Worryingly, I would also get whistled while wearing my school uniform. In the light of numerous scandals in the news now, that makes me shudder.
Have men now got the message that this sort of attention is unwanted and totally unacceptable? I like to think that this is the case, but I'll have to rely on the younger members here to put me straight.
At any rate, if you are not being cat-called, I would regard that as a sign that the message is finally sinking in, and definitely NOT that you are in any way unattractive.

texstyle

(website)

Veteran

I think it is more of a thing with groups of men or groups of women (yes, women do the cat calling thing too). Often I think they just think it's funny - even if it is done as a side handed compliment. Yes, I've had it happen, but never in a way or place where I felt threatened. Mostly it was in larger cities and esp. with construction crews. It's like one of their "things" to entertain themselves I think.

I'm not sure how much of this is going on these days - people are so much more worried about being called out for it.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Suz and gradfashionista, thanks for the reassuring words. I have heard about women being subject to negative harassment too (although I've never experienced that either) and that's even more upsetting. I also know it's true that young women get harassed more -- but when I was young, I never did! And you'd think I'd have been a target. (btw your story about men trying to pick you up for your "services" is darkly funny).

rachylou, lol, I'm not planning on inviting catcalls! Interesting that you say that artiness discourages it. I wouldn't have guessed.

Joyce, I showed a few people that video you posted, and we all got a chuckle. Thanks for the link! (I live in Vancouver, Canada, btw).

Sterling, thanks also for the reassuring words. I thought about it hard yesterday, after reading your response, and realized that when I was young, I almost never went anywhere alone. And now that I'm an adult, I go to kid events and places, and to university (I drive there and back). If I go out and do adult things, I'm with other adults. I never walk streets alone, unless we're talking busy downtown streets in the daytime, and even then it's not often.

Thank you, Shevia. I would like to think my posture discourages unwanted attention!

Cynthia, that's interesting that you never got harassed when dressed as a stagehand! That lends some weight to the idea that people's fashion choices affect their likelihood of being harassed. Not, of course, that women who want to dress up deserve harassment of any kind! But it suggests that one could dress to discourage it (or, as Rachylou said, encourage it).

Rebekahphoto, your strip club story made me chuckle!

Suz, I waited tables for a couple of years. No one ever harassed me then, either!

Rabbit, I think you're right that it's worse in some parts of the world. I've been to England (lots), Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, and Italy, plus a number of American states, and that's pretty much it -- never anywhere like Mexico or India. And now that I think about it, I've never travelled alone, unless it was to come home when we were living in the U.S. I live in Canada. Hmm.

Kaelyn, thanks for the reassurance.

Runcarla, it's interesting that you (like Suz) have distinguished between a flirtatious comment and a harassing one. I think you're right. I've had a few flirtatious comments from people over the years (not many, though!) and it wasn't threatening at all. Also interesting that your sons have experienced catcalling from women! I'd never heard of that. (And frankly, I'm a bit disappointed to hear it).

Sammi, well, hopefully it's just that I don't appear vulnerable.

Astrid, you are one of several people to mention "comfortable" shoes being a harassment deterrent. How interesting. I know I wore nothing but doc martens and birkenstocks in my youth, and both are as unsexy as women's shoes get! In fact, in my teens and early twenties, I wouldn't have been caught dead in high heels because I used to think they were for pathetic "weak" girls! Lol. I love them now, and they sure don't make me feel weak!

Summer and texstyle, you are among the many who mention construction sites. Now that I think about it, I don't know that I've ever walked past one. Driven/ridden a bus past one -- YES. It seems like Vancouver's been under construction for my entire lifetime!

RobinF

Veteran

I understand exactly what you are saying. I have never been cat-called or harassed in those ways either. I think I do tend to scowl when I am not talking and maybe give off certain vibes but it is also that I haven't often been in those common situations. I work in finance and there is plenty of sexism but not so much harassment, at least in my experience.

Aziraphale

Veteran

RobinF, I can relate to that! I HAVE experienced sexism. (I have also become increasingly attuned to subtle forms of sexism that I may not have noticed when I was younger). Luckily not that often, but it happens. I also think the results of the US election this year were largely due to a persistent undercurrent of sexism that plagues the U.S. (and probably Canada, too, although I hope to a lesser degree).

ma342

I think levels of street harassment are driven by specific environment/context. I've lived quite a few different places, and the amount of harassment I've had to deal with has ranged from high (frat row on a Saturday night) to almost nonexistent (my current neighborhood). More specifically, I have found the chance of men engaging in this nonsense are much higher if they are 1) in a group, 2) have been drinking, and 3) are under the age of 40.

I don't think that what I wear or how I present myself has much to do with it. I've been harassed while wearing baggy jeans and Birkenstocks, while wearing sweatpants and a hoodie, while wearing a shapeless down parka and clompy snowboots. I've been harassed when my hair was long and when it was short. I was harassed as a preteen and as a middle aged woman. It is always about power, and it always feels gross.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

Well, if you don't walk alone, that explains a lot. Most of the harassment I've experienced has happened when I was walking alone, though also sometimes (especially when I was younger) it would happen when I was walking or biking with female friends. In some countries, travelling, it happened when I was walking with my boyfriend.

So far it has not happened since my hair turned grey, but hey. Never say never.

I'm amazed you never got it at work -- my BOSSES harassed me in some of the restaurants I worked in. Not to mention the patrons.

As ma342 says, it's always about power and it always feels gross.

Helena

Veteran

I think Kaelyn has a great point - these things usually happen when there is a group (traditionally men, but sadly some women have decided this is an area they'd like to stake some claim to equality - that's a different topic!) trying to show off to one another.

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