I swore I wasn't going to chime in here, but Aziraphale, I have the SAME QUESTION. I would actually appreciate someone on the Trump side explaining this to me. I just deleted a huge section following this. Nevermind.

LisaP -- I KNOW! Obama seems lovely. Trump seems like a big pouty name-caller who, as an added 'bonus', is often gross about women.

And my impressions of these men don't just derive from how the media chooses to spin them. I've seen live broadcasts featuring both of them. I watched all of the debates. I read Trump's hilarious tweets. I'm forming my opinion largely on what I've seen and heard myself!

Very interesting facts and not dry and boring at all.

I guess there is a segment of the American Public that is dissatisfied with the government. On the other hand it was a challenge for me to vote in this election at all.

On the other hand SNL IS MORE ENJOYABLE.

Not to speak on behalf of anyone else, but I don't think the comparison is between Obama and Trump. It has to be about choosing T over HRC. And that's where I leave this thread. I can't do this. Because I'll say something that will get me labelled as a liberal snowflake. But I actually am a snowflake - it's minus 25 C here tonight . Speaking confidently for most Canadians, we don't view everything through the lens of the last line on our tax return, which explains why we just don't get it, I guess.

One of the most profound things my American Govt teacher said, in my mind, was how important the president's role as Head of State is. Queen Elizabeth performs this role apart from the actual workaday govt in the U.K., for example. We've got an all-in-one.

It's a very emotional role - it's all about the feeling that gets passed down and around. We Americans, as a population, are really fond of a certain, I don't know, loudness. A bluntness. We'd never elect a mushy poet. We feel better with that kind of energy, more capable. The importance of the ups and downs of national spirit are not to be underestimated.

The one big thing that The Donald does is voice our anxiety without reserve and any mealy-mouthed subtlety. I understand that.

Oh one thing Az... the middle class is in real trouble. The whole class is downwardly mobile, making for a 'new normal.' A scary one. That's Bernie's speaking point too...

I never used to watch SNL all that often (other than going though 'best of' anthologies -- More Cowbell!), but I've gotta admit, it's awfully funny these days.

Rachy -- ah, the stereotype of the loud American. And here I thought it could be dismissed as 'just a stereotype'. And as for bluntness -- well, I like that. It can be refreshing. But it has to be accompanied by a certain level of eloquence -- and competence.

ETA: Lisa, maybe I'm a bit dense, but what's T and HRC?

T=Trump
HRC=Hillary Rodham Clinton

JAileen: Doh. Of course. Thanks

MORE COWBELL!

I'll leave you with this.

Goodnight everyone

Yes !

Lol. Cowbell! More!

Competence in my mind was the deciding factor. But it's interesting what ways people come up with to measure that. What they take it to mean. My mother, who I take a lot of cues from because of her political experiences, said to me a viable candidate has to have connections, a vast machine of people they can bring to Washington. But you know, it wasn't until this very month I got a number to put with this: 700. The new president has to have ~700 people to nominate to ~700 positions. In fact s/he should have more than that ready and submit the names way way before oath day, for vetting. And that's only for the start of it.

I would like to know how many people know that number, the scope. I went off an off-hand comment and a vague inkling, with an imagination fed by some stories about how the British do it.

A person might say to themselves 'this person is a CEO, lots of experience with directing multifaceted things.' They'd probably think a lot differently if they knew the person had to have relationships with 700 people ready to rumble across the entire government realm BEFORE day 1.

I heard something on Indivisible Radio with Charlie Sykes (NPR) tonight that I thought was a good insight into 'snowflakiness', as Lisa so wonderfully put it: We have this thing where demonstrating is conducted as a matter of personal expression. We need to do it as a matter of persuasion; of coming to an understanding, I'd say. We need to be specific to do that across the aisle. We need to focus on one or two things. 700 nominations specific and focused.

OK, so I am not the typical Trump supporter. I won't go into my reasons for disliking Hillary nor will I bash her. I live in a middle class, multicultural neighborhood, and teach in an inner city school. I have daily interactions with people from all ethnic backgrounds, and I welcome everyone as we are all equal. And I am offended by the comments I've been reading lately / no I won't go into which comments. So I should stay off "off topic," right? Well, I'm finding that hard to do, so I think I need to say goodbye to YLF for now, or at least try harder to stick to the main page, if I'm still welcome there.

Oh Karie, I'm sorry for the offense and being offending. I don't know why you wouldn't be welcome. I dislike Hillary too (I'd even be willing to say I hate her frankly) - even tho she spoke at my graduation and I was impressed by how sharp she is. I think she'd have been dangerously hawkish and (continue to) compromise the soul out of every value she and I share (I think there are some).

I admit I never thought she could get elected and considered her case closed before she was ever nominated. This is my bad.

This is a horror of an administration. Trump appealed to his supporters basest instincts, witness his rallies, and as he said "I love the poorly educated."

To the non typical Trump supporter, you've been duped, conned. More will be revealed, as if the last three weeks wasn't enough.

To those putting their support behind Nordstrom with their wallets, please also consider supporting a free press and investigative journalism by purchasing a subscription to publications like The Washington Post and The New York Times.

Yes, I agree I am sorry that you and others are offended. YLF is a welcoming community and that is one of the reasons I stay.

This thread has become addictive. But I think it is time for me to stop commenting also on this thread.

I also have problems with both Dem and Republicans. I wish our country could get along. I'm tired of the infighting and disagreements.

We are supposed to work together for the greater good. I think the divide is just growing.

I'm am only returning to this thread now, days later, and feel sad, confused, and yet encouraged at the same time. Angie, I'd like to chime in with all those who have offered thanks for your graceful moderation. What polarizing times these are, and how difficult it has become us all to strike a balance and to continue to converse with one another. YLF has always been one of the few windows on the internet where that could happen in ways we might not always anticipate -- and for that, I am hugely grateful. Thank you so very much for all you do to keep this place comfortable for as wide a range of people as possible.

My own feelings on this subject are outsized and immoderate and I can't and won't apologize for them. I expect my earlier short comment on this thread, and other comments sprinkled here and there on other threads may have made them clear, although I have tried to keep my expressions to a minimum.

But I do apologize if anything I have said or done has hurt someone here or made anyone feel unwelcome.

I am genuinely curious about what creates that feeling of unwelcomeness, though. I realize it might be unfair to ask, but can anyone enlighten me?

Is it posts that show what someone wore to a protest march? Or the (very short burst) of proliferation of such posts? Or the words used to describe the current president? Or that fact that some of us support a boycott against his daughter's products and/or would like to talk about the boycott as an example of consumer power in the fashion industry?

Or is it the dawning awareness that people we thought we had so much in common with (our love of fashion) might have less in common with us than we imagined? And the fear of that -- the fear of difference -- a fear we all share, to some degree. And if it is that, where does that fear of difference come from?

Does it come out of some need we have as humans to preserve our sense of ourselves and stay the same? Is it, at bottom, a fear of change?

This is a genuine question. I am wondering about what makes us feel shut out or unwelcome. What makes us feel like we belong. What makes us feel hurt. What makes us feel "unfriended." What makes it so hard to take in what those with an opposing view are saying without feeling personally threatened?

And what leads to genuine change?

And I think these questions have never been more important to us.

I know that my own temptation has been to go and hang out with people who agree with me. My feelings are too strong and this is such a visceral topic for me and I crave the support of those who are on the same "team," so to speak. Yet I know, my whole life's experience teaches me, that I need to temper that impulse. I need to learn what is going on for others.

One of the things that has always made YLF special is that I think it has been a place that somehow lets many of us test the edges of our discomfort with difference from time to time. Because it is a community composed of women of all ages, with (at least a little) racial variation, people who live all over the world, people whose experiences differ enormously, women with kids, women without, women at different income levels...it has been a place -- for me at least -- where I do sometimes come into contact with people who are quite different from those I usually interact with in my ordinary life. And whose opinions are different. And that has taught me something. I've sometimes felt challenged or uncomfortable or surprised. For me, that not always a fun thing, but it is a good thing.

It's tricky. Many of us come to YLF on the way to some kind of self-definition. Style is the way we express some inner change in ourselves, some shift. It's hard to take politics out of that, isn't it?

On the other hand, another value of YLF is that it is a place where we can let go of the cares of the world and just enjoy our love of clothes! And it's hard to do that if we are fighting with each other.

Which is why it is good this thread is in off-topic!

This is too long and I don't have answers. I have appreciated all the comments here so far and am trying to learn from them.

Suz, thank you for writing that. I have similar questions, but did not trust my ability to write them out in a way that wouldn't sound like poking.

I am always proud and amazed by the group of women YLF attracts. I recognize that this community is what it is through careful thought and nurturing by Angie, Greg and Inge. They have directed us, through example, rather than a heavy hand of moderation, and as a control freak, I can't tell you how much that example has shaped my perceptions in my life of what can be done with grace rather than force. This place is about way more than clothes.

To me, this group could be the poster child for emotional intelligence. The kindness and thoughtful consideration of others' feelings and awareness of our own biases is pretty much unequaled anywhere else I've ever been on the internet.

Kelleyanne Bowling Green Massacre Conway just violated federal law (but who's counting) turning the White House into QVC:

http://thehill.com/media/31865.....nkas-stuff

Claudia, when Trump said, "I love the poorly educated," he was referring to my state! We're famous for coming in last place for good things (such as high school graduation rates), and first place for bad things (teen pregnancy, for example). What a distinction, right?!

Suz, thank you for that. You've expressed many things I've been feeling but struggling to find the words. These are trying times indeed.

Traci, emotional intelligence is the template for collective intelligence, and science proves it.

Karie, I'm very saddened that you're feeling unwelcome and I can understand why you might feel uncomfortable. I'm sure I speak for many here in saying that I wouldn't judge you one way or the other whatever your views. They are relevant to your life, and you have good reasons for holding them. In fact, I'd go so far as to say to any woman who feels in the minority that we need you more than ever.

This is a challenging historical moment and we should try not to let it divide the community. I'm not a US voter, I'm guilty of expressing some opinions, but I've tried to do so tactfully, constructively and in moderation. Everyone has questions and there are no easy answers, but we're certainly not going to find solutions if we don't trust in the values that brought us all together in the first place.

i'm very late to the conversation, in fact i've debated either to even join this conversation....but feel I do have something to add...YLF has been an eye opener for me, it's helped me to up my fashion game, and helped me to expand my horizon. at the same time, its helped me to be less judgmental and more complementary on what others are wearing, sometimes just by exposing me to what you all are wearing. I'd like to think that we can be as open to each others views as we can be to each others fashion choices.

Well said, Suz. I probed at those same questions earlier in the thread (or was it another thread, I'm forgetting?), and got no response from those who feel "on the outside" of the prevailing expressed opinions here. I don't want anyone to feel attacked, and I can understand how some people may want to avoid the Off Topic forums, or even the whole forum, as a result. For that, I am sorry. But I am not sorry for expressing my beliefs and concerns.

I also understand the desire to congregate with like-minded people. It's no coincidence that hubs and I wanted to high-tail it out of TX after the election, but it was fortunate that we ended up connecting with wonderful new friends there who also feel like outsiders in their own town (east TX is very deeply "red state" territory outside of Dallas). I have friends and family members who voted differently from me (my own sister and I need to avoid politics), but I never want to shut them out. My husband has gotten together with some of his T-voter friends, and a few of them are not what you might expect either. Put bluntly, most of them were motivated by the state of their own personal wallets and a hatred of HRC. Simple as that.

Suz, I simply could not agree with you more.

I have been on here for 7 years. We have talked about Lululemon and the CEO's comments, Anthropology's CEO/Owner, clothes made in America, Fairtrade, the horrific fire in Bangladesh at a clothing manufacturing factory, child labor in clothes manufacturing, John Galliano's racist rants and on and on. It offended no one. Yet somehow, the mention of a Trump ( which is a brand )...just the mention...is offensive enough for someone to accuse us of being unwelcome.

People here have been open enough to want to understand what is so offensive. And concerned enough that people feel welcome. Yet no one is willing to have an actual exchange as to why it is so offensive to them. Instead, people here are being treated as if they are thugs that are running people off - simply for having an opinion on a brand and its customer relations. Respectfully, I completely reject that notion. What I see is an attempt to put a lid on anything perceived as political dissent.

Excellent post, Suz.

Thanks, Suz, for articulating what so many of us are feeling. I so agree with your statement hanging out with people who DO NOT share my opinions and values is uncomfortable, but I've always felt it is enormously valuable because it's usually the only way to see the issue from another perspective. Sticking with those who share my thoughts and reactions is much easier but all too often just makes the division between US and THEM even wider.

I'm so grateful Angie and Greg's careful moderation and insistence on respect let us explore our differences in a safe and constructive way. Feelings do get bruised from time to time, but, from my experience, it is rarely because one YLFer sets out to intentionally hurt another member. Anyone that mean spirited is usually shown the exit door quite quickly.

I also try to remember, whenever I feel like I've been thrown a dart, that it's impossible for someone I've never met in person to know my vulnerabilities and insecurities. My interpretation of words on a page may be worlds away from the intent of the author. Staying around instead of walking away usually gives me something new to mull over.

To be honest, Americans have often baffled me despite the many commonalities we share. The recent election has made me aware of exactly how different we can be as nations. Reading the comments here, though, gives me much to think about. The Off-Topic area is one of the rare places where controversial topics get discussed with passion and conviction, but without resorting to shouting and denigrating remarks. I still don't understand why so many Americans voted for Trump--and most likely I never will--but I think it's important I gain at least a little insight into why so many felt he was the better alternative. It might be only throwing a rope across the divide, instead of building a bridge, but to me even that puny effort is better than isolating ourselves and hurling stones at each other.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say to any woman who feels in the minority that we need you more than ever.

Thanks, Liz. You've put your finger on something.

The reason some people may feel offended is because they are suddenly feeling marginalized.

I understand that. It can be painful to feel part of a minority. Here....or anywhere.

I won't belabour that point.

But...just trying to crawl into another person's skin for a second...if we're honest about it, we are unusually vulnerable on this forum, especially if we are posting photos of ourselves. For many of us, this takes a lot of courage, for a variety of reasons, and it leaves us feeling more exposed. So the level of trust needs to be higher. So recognizing one's minority status here could feel more painful or at least more shocking than it might in certain other contexts.

Obviously, the real life consequences are not comparable to those of being marginalized in most other contexts, but we're talking about feelings and friendship here. Even online friendship is friendship, and that is important. Nobody wants to be that person who isn't picked for the team or who gets shoved out of the sandbox. I've been there, sisters, and it sucks!

Anyway, I'm sad if that has happened to some.

But some members might be feeling unwelcome for another reason -- because they feel personally insulted. No one likes to be told she is stupid, thoughtless, or unkind -- especially by someone who has never met her in person and does not know her lived realities. I think it is possible to disagree with one another's positions without insulting one another, and we should aim for that. Not that this is always easy.

We all have every right to express our own opinions - all viewpoints. What is so offensive is when it gets insulting. Comments like the "duped and conned" one are offensive and hurtful.

If only I hadn't gone to sleep with an inclusive president and woken up with white supremacists leading our country!

Some (Sessions, Bannon) have a long-standing history -- while others heeded the call to infiltrate politics that came in 2008, post-Obama, to quote "take the country back." [Make America Great Again?]

I mean, if you can believe a guy who was raised in the white supremacist cradle but has since stepped out of the movement:

• https://www.washingtonpost.com.....a-8f3b-11e
• https://www.splcenter.org/hate.....son-escape

I don't need people to regret not voting, or not voting for HRC.

I need everyone who believes in liberty and justice for all to MOBILIZE to get Trump and his cabal out. If they aren't interested in doing that, well....