By the way, @Cococat: this is the off topic section. We can address a wider range of topics than just fashion and style, provided we are not disrespectful or rude. The only people I'm using strong language against here are Donald Trump and, to a lesser degree, his daughter Ivanka, because she's complicit in the madness and intolerance that's going on. If either of them are reading this and want to debate me, well, bring it on.

If you don't like what's being said on this thread, then by all means, stop reading it. I won't hold your political beliefs against you if you want to ask a fashion question or share a style-related anecdote.

Ledonna, I would like to thank you for your input. That was a great post coming from a place of looking back at slavery, civil rights etc. It is often hard I guess for humans to relate to groups of people who seem so different from them, and yet I do try to understand their points of view. It is a much more major version of tiny differences like in my "pet peeves" in my profile I don't like distressed jeans and tattoos! But I fully realise other people love those things and regard their tattoos, for instance, as a big part of who they are. So if people had all kinds of reasons for voting whichever way they did, and the same applied for the Brits with Brexit, then those reasons must have had validity for them?

Aziraphale this thread wasn't off topic when I commented initially. Angie has since moved it.

I'm pleased to hear that you won't hold my political beliefs against me...and note that you have assumed that you know what they are based on my comments about ylf becoming political. If you actually knew me at all, you would realise how laughable this is.

This is a worthwhile discussion about the intersections between fashion and politics, and I'm glad to see it continuing off-topic. Of all the things I value about this forum, the fact that it can host difficult and challenging discussions like this right there at the top. I am constantly amazed.

Yes, it's hard not to take offence at things you disagree with. I've been challenged here from time to time, it's confronting but very often it leads me to examine my own prejudices. gradfashionista, yes, it's a teaching moment. You said exactly what I was thinking and struggling to articulate.

For what it's worth, Echo and Aziraphale I stand with you on this. I'll add that I think this has gone beyond politics: the new administration is unfit for purpose. It's dishonest, unstable, undemocratic and a potential threat to world peace. I want to thank all forum members who have exercised their right to peaceful protest and shared it with us.

I'd like to ask members who think that talking about this is somehow divisive: why? What exactly is so offensive about these expressions of opinion? Do you want to live in a society where governments can't be challenged in times of crisis? Do you want a world where everyone is exactly the same and people who are different are silenced, imprisoned, enslaved or purged? Because that's where we are right now.

And Ledonna, you are a beacon of grace and wisdom. (I have often thought Angie should run for public office, but I doubt if she would and I wouldn't blame her if she didn't.)

"This is a worthwhile discussion about the intersections between fashion and politics, and I'm glad to see it continuing off-topic. Of all the things I value about this forum, the fact that it can host difficult and challenging discussions like this right there at the top. I am constantly amazed."

I feel this too. I admire Angie so much for this spirit she's cultivated, and the restraint of YLF'ers - it's extraordinary on the web. The maintenance of 'present company excluded' and the contained 'I statement', so that one can let out what's on their mind and have it be about them and where they're at and no one else. These values, ground rules are always implicitly active here on YLF. Your heart can be calm here, and that lets the mind inform it better. You get to think about your own thoughts.

...and so would now be a good time to say again how I don't much like Gloria Steinhem and Margaret Sanger, and much worse, rather like Paris Hilton in spite of myself... or herself (and selfies)? I don't like Trump for a president, but I completely understand why he won the election. Completely. AND I think the pink cat hat my mum knitted was quite the thing. I'm an unholy, scary combo of liberal and conservative.

...and I do think we're beyond politics and legislation now in the U.S.

It's a great discussion and one i feel gives voice to different and often difficult view points. Never wanting to make anyone feel as if their viewpoint is not valued. I want to try and understand like Approprio I'm intrested in what you have to say.

I was an ultra conservative against my families wishes. Lol. Do you know how hard that is being black and a conservative. Hahaha

To be honest i only looked at things from my perspective. "i did it so why can't you?" As I've grown older and my world vision has opened like fashion. There is more than just my way or the highway.

Although i am saddened that American has chosen Trump. I also understand the reason he was chosen. Serving in the Army for 10 years during operation enduring freedom opened my eyes to many other things.

The only way forward is through it. I still wholeheartedly believe that i can be the change i want to see. Long before Obama made it a fashionable slogan .lol.

I must say that I have been so sad about many things going on in this world recently that I have considered stepping back from this beloved forum.
But the lovely inclusive community here keeps pulling me back!
It is some comfort to know that the whole world hasn't gone mad, and giving a respectful voice to our concerns is so important.

I just read all these comments with great interest.
One of the things I love about fashion is how it reflects and is influenced by what is happening in society at the time.
Politics and fashion are connected in my mind.

And I too love Dolly Parton !

I think it's valid to talk about boycotts as they relate to fashion. And particularly in the off-topic section.

As for Ivanka, I have increasingly strong feelings about her. She is her father's advisor, she made a choice to have a public position and associate herself with her father's policies. Were she someone who stuck solely with running a business, my initial positive feelings toward her might still be intact. I'll hold off on saying any more here.

Beautifully said, Ledonna and Liz.

Ylf is *the* most civil and friendly place I've been on the internet. So thank you Angie and the members for making it that way.

That said, I do think it's impossible to totally separate politics and fashion. Fashion has always been used as a political tool, and politics have always informed fashion. As have culture, history, technology, etc. that's part of why I like it. And I like that we can discuss this respectfully here.

I do agree that we should keep this discussion limited to the boycott here. With respect to that, I too am fascinated by how quickly this seems to have worked in this case. I will say that I do not agree with the tactic of boycotting entire stores like Nordstrom and amazon. As Angie (I think) has mentioned, that hurts too many innocent people (employees etc). I DO agree with boycotting more targeted things, such as the IT line (yes I know they have employees too but you have to draw a line somewhere.). I never bought any of her stuff in the past because it did not appeal to me, but now I would not buy it even if I liked the items.

It's interesting to me because if asked I would have said that boycotts don't work. Historically I don't think there's much evidence. I don't shop IT because of personal convictions, not because I really thought a boycott would do anything. But maybe I am wrong, or maybe this is a special case.

From where I sit, it has never been more important for people to talk to each other, even as we pursue our sometimes differing hopes. It sometimes seems hard these days, given the polarization "everywhere".

I value YLF as place where people come with a variety of lifestyles, diverse ideas about fashion, a range of cultures and life experiences, to discuss how things are working for them, problem solve together, and solicit feedback. In this context, we have come to know each other better. It is our mutual respect that has generated discussions such as this; otherwise, it would be easier to define the site more narrowly. I'd hate to see conversation become a lost art.

Perhaps Ivanka IS speaking out to her father in a way that would delight us all. Perhaps she IS presenting viewpoints that will expand his thinking, over time. That is my hope, that this educated, classy woman (who, being a stunningly beautiful young woman with a very privileged upbringing, coulda turned out a lot worse. As in; Hilton highjinks, Kardashian highjinks, etc.) is thinking more like we are, and working on knocking the rough edges off her father quietly, behind closed doors. As a beginning. Cuz she has lots of work to do here. : )

Of course they present a unified front, he IS her one and only father - he was before the presidency and will continue being HER 'dear papa' after the four (we optimistically hope) years are up and on into his frailer years.

Until proven otherwise, I chose to not punish the adult child for the father's actions. UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE I will not throw hate at his family members. I see many different paths she COULD be taking when it comes to handling her father, as I had to travel many challenging paths with my difficult father until he passed away.

And to bring this back around and end on a style and fashion note: if we didn't know who her father was, we would be noticing her as a graceful, stylish, powerful, successful young businesswoman mother. I gotta say, YLF, Ivanka!

I think a lot of people may have stopped purchasing Ms. Trump's merchandise because they didn't like her father. Those of you who disagree with this may be right in your opinion that it is unfair. However, President Trump is a capitalist and has stated that he believes in the power of the market above all else. In this case, the market has spoken. Nordstrom discontinued the Ivanka Trump brand simply because it was not selling. People may wish to purchase her brand from one of the many stores in which it is still available, and then her bottom line will not suffer. If her brand enjoys popularity throughout the market, Nordstrom will most likely revisit their position.

FYI I'm totally liberal, but am trying offer other issues. I had problems with her line & parent company well before last year
None of this is political

From Reddit, read the first comment

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/.....arch_posts

She's been known to rip off other designers
http://www.thefashionlaw.com/h.....or-copying

The parent company Marc Fisher killed one of my favorite brands
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08.....shoes.html

He also lost a lawsuit to Gucci for ripping off the pattern for Guess shoes.

We all have desires for what is on this forum and not on this forum. And it is so easy for any of us to steer threads in any direction, or continue threads that Angie has deleted -- without any consequence. Perhaps we think this is "our forum." Is it Angie's forum and her livelihood? I sent her an email last night expressing my deep understanding for the challenges she is facing as a moderator. She said I must be the only person who had thought of her position. I was shocked. Perhaps she deleted this thread as the owner of this website, as the owner of this business, for a reason. Was she loosing members who felt uncomfortable? Might I suggest that you also email Angie to discuss your desire for political/fashion dialogue (as the voice of a consumer that is not uncomfortable) - and inquire why she deleted the post. I just want folks to keep Angie in mind (the business owner) -- and she clearly had her reasons for deleting this thread.

AM, that saddens me tremendously. Throughout the years, there have been times when Angie and Greg had to delete threads ( I don't know which one you are talking about now ) and I thought that there had been no significant blow back. I think that many people are aware of Angie's position. People have come and gone and feel comfortable or not comfortable for various reasons. So your point is very well taken and just a further reminder to be respectful. Personally, I LOVE these tête-à-têtes...because people here tend to be very respectful. And I believe that Aziraphale has a great and important point : people can disagree on values but still be fair and neutral on fashion and dress. And this is "off topic". If I saw a thread that I might find would upset me, I would stay away from it. That is fair.

I also agree with Aziraphale that some harsh words have been about Trump ( and even that has been really limited ) and not individual members. So I am bit befuddled as to why this is seen as a personal affront that makes people uncomfortable to participate. I honestly don't see how posting WIWs to a demonstration is threatening. I know that wouldn't offend me.

( LeDonna , I want to give you a shout out to very well reasoned and sound posts. As well as the ladies saying that "fashion" and current events are intertwined very often. Heck, even the stock market is reflected in how we have dressed through the years.)

Jenni NZ, your post really intrigued me. It made me think of the meaning of "valid". Valid means to have a level of reasonableness and to be sound. Though I don't think we always use it that way. For example, "Your feelings are valid." We mean they matter. But they may not be based on reason and sound judgement. So your question about Brexit, for example, got me to thinking. You asked if the people who voted for Brexit were also not "valid". My answer would be no. This is backed up by the fact that the trending Google topic in the UK the morning after the vote, was "What is Brexit?". And many people when interviewed after the vote didn't realize what it actually was. Public opinion may have decided the matter by choosing the policy but it doesn't automatically make it a sound or good policy. (Obviously I don't know what it will be long term..but the actual decision of The People by The People was not valid. )

And just as a reminder, I really hate leggings as outerwear. But I won't judge anyone for it.... : )

I was just informed by Angie that this wasn't deleted just moved to "Off Topic" -- It's been a while since I've been on YLF. This is a totally different situation. I apologize for any confusion. Again, I was posting to recognize Angie's role as moderator and business owner -- as we all share what we want YLF to be or not be. I might add that I wish all this honesty and respect would carry over when I post WIW's. In the past, there was way too much -- "That looks great." vs. suggestions, critical thought -- or why not tell me "That doesn't work." Before you say it -- that's another issue, start a new thread...ha.

Just a thought to those who are trying to understand why some people may be put off by these types of conversations:
Some members who speak their opinions, sometimes stating them as fact, come across as brooking no argument. For those who may believe differently (vastly differently in some cases), it sends a clear message, whether intended or not, that they don't measure up. Intimidation is a powerful thing. There have been some very clear lines drawn in some of these threads.

Thanks for the kind words AM, Ledonna, Liz, Diana, Rachy and Isabel. I'm touched.

AM, the thread has not been deleted. It was moved to Off Topic, and that's where you've been typing your comment. Those who do not want to engage in the thread do not need to see it come up in their feed in the main part of the forum. Much better that way.

AM, you make a good point. We should all be sensitive to Angie's business needs, she is our host and this is her livelihood. This forum is an amazing achievement, a credit to Angie and Greg's hard work. It is very special to all of us and what makes it so very special is this diversity of opinion.

I don't come here to talk about politics, in fact I'd rather not talk about it, but fashion and culture being what they are, politics will rear its ugly head now and then. I liked your earlier point about this being "one of those threads" - sometimes you can't avoid it. When that happens, is it better for the community to discuss it in a civil and respectful manner, or to sweep it under the carpet until next time?

I know this is a very difficult conversation and feelings are running high. We need inclusive discussion more than ever and it would be a terrible shame if YLF didn't continue with that philosophy. These are incredibly important, difficult conversations to have, and nowhere on the World Wide Web does them better than here.

tl;dr: what Eliza said.

"From where I sit, it has never been more important for people to talk to each other, even as we pursue our sometimes differing hopes. It sometimes seems hard these days, given the polarization "everywhere"."

Angie: In my last post I apologized for mistakingly stated that this post was deleted -- I thought there was a very different set of circumstances at play -- circumstances where you had decided to eliminate content for whatever reason, as the business owner. Seems like we were clarifying my error at the same time. Again, my apologies. And I appreciate you chiming in to give insight on why you put it in Off Topic. I always like to hear from the business owners especially when it comes to media/content driven sectors. Thank you.

I see this thread has developed a long list of comments overnight! Not surprising, as emotions are running high these days.

Tina, I hear what you're saying. I'm sorry if my strong words sent a message that some people "don't measure up", but I don't take them back. It's not in my nature to be ambiguous. Transparency and honesty are important to me: what you see is what you get. That's how you know I will always give my honest opinion when it comes to other things. I think it's clear that Trump infuriates me. He is an irresponsible vulgarian, and I am increasingly alarmed by some of the choices he and his administration have made in the past week and a half. (Half the world is alarmed!). I am being forthright, yes, but I would have thought it is obvious that these are my opinions, not fact.

Anyone who doesn't like what I have to say is free to disregard it.

Angie, you do walk a fine line here as moderator, so I join in the chorus of thanks. Also, thank you for not deleting my comments. I know I can be, shall we say, matter-of-fact, but I make every effort to be polite. It's refreshing to have a (cyber) space in which to comment about the world from time to time, where people are always civil to each other.

Approprio, Mochi and Isabel -- thanks for the backup.

Cococat -- lol, yes, I did assume Sorry about that. To be honest, though, I probably won't remember everybody's political leanings (or what I guess are their political leanings) down the road. Politics doesn't come up all that often, and only generally in Off Topic, so unless someone said something particularly outrageous and memorable, I'm likely to forget.

Tina, I see your point. That makes sense to me. People believe their own opinion to be "fact" or "fact based". Otherwise they wouldn't have an opinion if they believed it was "wrong". And just because someone else has a opinion , doesn't preclude someone else from presenting their own. Nor should they assume that they are being dismissed and then " blame" the person with the original opinion. I haven't seen anyone try to shut down or demean an opposing view. I also don't think that anyone has said, " That's my position and I don't want to hear or see anyone with an opposing view." Sometimes we project things that aren't accurate. And I think this current climate particularly facilitates that.

I think that Angie's remedy is perfect ! But mostly I hope that we can all agree that we can remain neutral when it comes to how someone looks and in supporting each other. I am in the same camp with Aziraphale, it would never occur to me to look at someone's posts and tailor my response according to what I think their political view may or may not be. I just can't imagine that anyone on here would. We also shouldn't assume automatic condemnation by someone simply because they voice an opinion. That is unfair.

I hope that now that it is all out in the open, that people feel more comfortable.

This was a great conversation, btw. : ) Angie, for the BAZILLIONTH time, thank you and Greg and Sam for allowing this kind of conversation. Maybe this will be a place of healing. : ) Maybe it already is....

As I am newly back to YLF, I'm getting more clear about Angie's business decisions relating to political content. She seems to be giving space for those who don't want to engage in political discussion and those who do. Looks like there isn't going to be any sweeping under the rug. I'm not going to voice my opinions about appropriate words or tone that should or should not be used to build community, knowledge, and understanding during these times of great divides. I will leave it up to conversations between the business owners and happy/unhappy consumers. FWIW, what's on YLF may be the sharing of view points, discussion or debate. Since we're sharing...

I personally, thrive on the debate. YLF is definitely not my choice for debate. Politics has a long history of being a blood sport. My style is to have rigorous debate face to face so that I can read the emotions of the other person so I can be sensitive if I am too close to drawing blood. And we're going to need the time to go deep into the issues. And after the debate, I want to be able to spend time with the other person discussing things we have in common, relating to each other with warmth -- warmth that I feel I can only deliver when sitting next to someone. Given that there are now massive divides, I've had to show even more sensitivity and warmth to break down walls to even engage in civil debate. Bridge building is more difficult these days. For those who want to debate eye to eye -- it would be a blast, come to DC. It's a great place for shopping and debate. As for sharing political views and political discussion via the web -- not my thang. Anyway, to each their own. I respect Angie's decisions. There seems to be a place here for everything (if you want it). Politics will clearly intersect with fashion on YLF -- I now know I can look to Off Topic. Thanks for all the sensitive and thoughtful contributions on this thread. It shows. And it matters.

Excellent comments from so many. And I want to echo and reiterate once again how very grateful I am that Angie and Greg have cultivated such a haven of positivity in YLF. I like that we can disagree or criticize here but are overwhelmingly respectful.

I am not afraid of participating in political debate, but I don't necessarily want to do it on YLF. That said, I do not have a problem with the existence of posts that involve the way fashion and politics intersect (or collide), nor with posts that show how YLF participants show their style while partaking in the political activities of their choice, regardless of their political leanings. If you want to show what you wore to an anti-choice rally, go for it. I have the freedom to not click on the thread, or to not comment on it, or to comment on your outfit but refrain from criticizing your politics. We all are free to participate in a thread or not. I do not want people to feel alienated, but I have not seen any political content in earlier topics or threads (at least nothing outside of the Off Topic forum) until this one got heated, so again, as others have said, I'd be curious to understand what was offensive to the people who are feeling this way.

As for punishing the store that carries a brand, I tend to agree. So in this case, I wouldn't have boycotted Nordstrom simply because they carried the IT line. Nordstrom, as far as I know, has not publicly stated their political affiliations, and so the politics of IT or Marc Fisher or other brands are not necessarily those of Nordstrom.

However, there are also cases of boycott where the company as a whole has made their position clear. Clearly, boycotts have not worked to shut down these companies, but I still make a distinction between Nordstrom carrying a line some people consider controversial (IT), and companies like Chick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby, where their owners or CEOs have said controversial things. Those things - especially in cases where the company has actively donated to organizations opposing the equal rights of some individuals or contributed money in a divisive political way - reflect on the COMPANY and not simply on a line they carry. While I would prefer it if more companies would remain silent about their political affiliations, I also appreciate knowing when their views clash irreconcilably with my own. In those cases, I can choose not to support political groups I disagree with (because the profits from my purchases could go to fund those groups).

I realize that everyone has political views and leanings, CEOs and business owners included. I don't expect those people to be apolitical. I do, however, hope that more of them will choose to put their businesses first and keep their political positions private. Much like many people get upset about celebrities talking politics, I'd rather not have to avoid certain stores due to politics. But to know that I am supporting positions I find morally reprehensible with my purchase does make me avoid certain stores. I fully realize that others make a point to spend their dollars in those same locations to support that same position, so my choices may not actually make any real difference. However, those choices do allow me to sleep at night.

It is so interesting once again to read. One of rhe reasons im taking a break from FB us because of all the polotical back and forth. If you choose to share your voice or not. Your voice matters. With some I choose to agree to disagree No big deal. I think that those whom choose to voice their opinion can be understood without being with each other IRL. I belong to a few groups on FB whom self moderate abd some whom have great moderators.

I think people want to feel as if they have a voice and a choice. Just like FB I can choose to read, comment or keep on scrolling. Life is a great equalizer. I've seen protest and boycotts work. The almighty $$ is powerful. I feel you can voice your opinions without putting down someone else. For me it's good to hear different viewpoints.

My biggest concerns is I have friends who were interpreters in Iraq. Friends were helping them try obtain citizenship. The current administration overnight stopped this process. Now friends are mad because now this affects them directly.

What im trying to say is sometimes we don't see the ramifications of what we do until it affects us on a personal level. I'm still trying to understand.

Ledonna, I have heard so many stories about interpreters and others who risked their own lives and families to help the US in Iraq. The hoops they had to jump through before were complicated enough, and many of them never were allowed into the US (or haven't been yet) because despite the US military standing behind them, one lie told by another Iraqi could jeopardize their chances. With the stand the new administration has taken, it makes things even harder for these allies. I find it shameful that we cannot or will not protect those who have risked their lives to protect and help us.

And thanks for often being the voice of reason, Ledonna. I find it really refreshing that a veteran who has every right to hold very strong positions in the political arena chooses to be so diplomatic.

As a feminist since the age of 6 (radicalized by the difference in the Nancy Drew vs Hardy Boy series) and someone who has fought for equality and anti-discrimination on many fronts, I'm pretty hardened to insults.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that many current Trump supporters and/or Trump voters* have not had the experience of feeling like their peer group, nation, world was against them. Welcome to your new reality.

I'm not here on this planet to change minds of his supporters.

I'm here to say I don't support white nationalism, fascism (which includes suppressing the media), poisoning the earth, controlling women's bodies, and all other crimes against humanity unrolling before me.

Ivanka deserved the boycott for reasons others have stated. Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. She could have made any number of statements along the lines of "I love my father but disagree that blah blah..." IF that's how she felt.

That's what any woman who sees herself as equal and free does. She leads by example. She defies. She takes a big step away from the party line. She doesn't stand by "her" man (boss, father, husband, brother, president) in silence. Silence implies shared values, or fear of punishment.

And for the record I was pretty disgusted with HRC standing by Bill during his sexcapades and abuse of power with Monica -- and for not divorcing him. So much so that I would have preferred another candidate.

** "I voted to release millions of hornets, and I already regret it" -- https://www.thebeaverton.com/2.....dy-regret/