Ok, so, from out of left field here.... I'm *like* this old-world, third-world Catholic in many ways, culturally. One of my uncles isn't an uncle; he was a boy my one blood-uncle took in. My own daughter isn't my biological daughter; she's the grand-daughter of a former neighbor. In my world, everybody is "cousin." Your "brothers" may be your brothers or they may be cousins five times removed or honorary cousins. I called my grandmother, "Aunt." And you know, persons of parental age tend to be in the prime of life and have to do the work. Childcare falls to others.

So the notion of the nuclear family - dam and sire doing/being everything - is very... American to me. Modern American. I'm not even sure it existed before the 1950s. I find it very hard to wrap my head around. I mean, the human species is an alloparenting species. You don't have to experience pregnancy to get your brain rewired as a "parent brain." You only have to spend a certain extended amount of time with a baby to be rewired. Also, someone tell me it's not a little crazy to expect just one or two people to do and be everything?

The American sense of adoption itself... also a little unique, maybe? There are these stories of American adoption agencies "stealing" children from foreign countries... families think their sons and daughters are going to foster with another family - i.e., live with another family while going to school - they don't realise they're being entirely replaced and cut off. Obviously, you wouldn't have that misunderstanding between Americans, but maybe we don't understand you can't give and take children that way?

Anyways, so... third "so"... what do you think/feel family is, what biological parents contribute unavoidably, if you feel American adoption is pretty weird... ?

To answer the question : If I were exactly as I am today, but adopted, I would not bother to find my birth parents. I don't have time. I'm done with being a child. My obligations are totally and legally elsewhere. And "genetics" don't explain anything as far as I'm concerned (I'm type 1 diabetic, which is "genetic", and yet I'm the first person in 5 generations to have it).

If I had time and felt like doling out some punishment and a Catholic-based lecture on the nature of life... then maybe I'd go find my birth parents. First opportunity. Because, to be honest, I like to give what-for.

Aziraphale, sorry I misread you and thought you were having issues about the idea of an adoptee adopting.

Anyway, yeah, it's a touchy subject for many of us. Most of us adoptees. I never got the ones who felt cleanly blended in with their adopted families. I never really did. I am not one of those who thinks my family and I were brought together by fate, etc. yada. I think of myself, or any adopted baby, as a commodity, a thing. I think of it as a random transfer of property. Of course, as has been detailed here, there is a protocol to suss out the adoptive family's suitability. But ultimately it's very arbitrary IMHO. Like Aziraphale, I have some very mixed feelings about my adoptive parents, even though I love them a lot and know I would have had a hellish time with my bio-parents.

Anyway, I'm the type of person who can't let a mystery like that stand. I had to try my best to find out who they were. If you don't feel that way, there's probably no point in trying to manufacture that sense of urgency. It's hard enough when you're invested in it.

Rachy, I don't think I can disagree with any of the things you are saying. And up until this year, I have not been interested in searching for my genetic relations. I've always assumed everything was done for the best, and you play the hand you're dealt, and that's that. No sense in searching for something you may not find. I'm pretty independent.

But lately...curiosity is creeping in. I'm not sure why, exactly. I probably should seek counselling before proceeding. I don't think I expect I will be 'made whole' in some way. I'm not even clear on what exactly I'm hoping for. But for some reason, for the first time, I suddenly have a desire to know.

Mochi, no worries. There's no problem with adopting a baby! It's just that most adopted people don't seem so keen on the idea.

This is a bit of a tangent, but bouncing off of what Rachy says, and because I've been thinking about it all day, is the idea of 'found family.' I've long been drawn to the idea of found family in fiction and mass media, as it reflects the reality of many friends of my generation and younger in several ways. So many people are dislocated geographically from their biological families or distanced or estranged in other ways, and so many times parenting is a group effort, or comes down to those in the childs' environment who love them and step in.

Heck, I'm pretty fond of my biological family and in-laws, but if I want to see anyone who shares my DNA, it's 7 hours on a plane. Add to that that I'm not comfortable on the phone for more than a few minutes, and the truth is, the 'family' I've built around me through marriage and friends and co-workers knows me much better and shares my daily struggles in a way that no relation does. When the idea of close community based on geography, or religion, or family breaks down, other communities spring up, like minded people find each other--sometimes online, and like Suz says, the acceptance of difference gets built into this naturally. I don't know, I think overall love and being there is far more significant a binding factor than biology for me overall.

Yeah, rabbit...I had typed a longer thing about our own family being made up of a...shall we say...interesting mix. It includes an Orthodox rabbi with 8 kids, a vegan animal rights activist, people of several races and multiple (and mixed) ethnicities and different sexual orientations, different generations, born in different countries, speaking different languages as their first language -- some related biologically and some not related biologically to one another.

For myself, my non-biological family is far more important/ closer than my bio family. But it is easy to say that, when you know who your bio. relatives are. I think that's the thing that's key about this.

I am the mom of 3 adopted children so I can only speak from that side. Of my 3 children, 1 is keen to look for his biological family. The other 2 are not, at least not at this time.
I have asked my son to allow me to seek out a reunion counselor first for all of the reasons you have mentioned. I feel that will give him some time to reflect on the various possible outcomes and his expectations and how he will feel if those expectations are not met. He is thinking about it.
My feeling is that you just have to go with your heart on this and then look for the best way to support that decision.

Rabbit -- For what it's worth, I have very close ties to the family I married into. They are excellent people. I've established close friendships, too, that I value as much as my family.

For me personally, I don't think this is about whom I love -- my own family, my married family, my friends, or even potentially my bio family. I can't quite put my feelings into words, but it's more about...knowing where I come from. I'm trying to work out whether these feelings are important enough that I should act on them.

That's interesting, Az. A rising impulse to know. I wonder why.

ETA: Should clarify... I don't mean "why know"... I mean why the impulse, and why now.

I started reading this thread yesterday and continued as it progressed and could not stop thinking about it at work today. Initially I was not going to comment because I do not have any experience here. But, I know there is always a but, your question AZ is if I would want to know about my biological parents. My answer is yes because as some previously posted, I am such a curious creature. I have been working on my genealogy because of that curiosity and I wonder if it is somewhat similar to what you are feeling. All of a sudden I wanted to know where I came from and so my search began. I think my aging has something to do with it. Could your aging be the poke you are feeling? Will your children want to know where they came from and have no way to find out unless you give them some clues even if you do not pursue your search all of the way?

Through my search on my family background, I received an email from a gentleman that was looking for his family ties. His mother left him in his fathers care when he was a toddler and he had no cousins nor other family members at all. Come to find out, he is my second cousin and I was able to give him information on our great grandparents that he knew nothing about.

I guess for me the question would be is what do your children want to know?

And yes, I would want to know.

I can't speak to the adoption issues, but I would echo the advice to get counseling before proceeding. The fact that your mom is now "gone" through dementia makes this a hyper-stressful and emotional time for you; her condition and your complicated relationship with her is very painful. I'd like to think that anything with finding birth parents could wait until the situation with your adoptive parents has stabilized and you are more at peace (I know you have recently mentioned being troubled by life circumstances out of your control).

I just wanted to jump back in to second what Deb is saying about becoming more curious about ancestry as we get older. Maybe confronting the thought of our own mortality, or seeing our parents age, or some combination of the two, makes us curious about our ancestry? I know up until a few years ago, I never thought much about my parents, or grandparents, early lives. It was seeing my mothers's slow slide into dementia that made me realize all that knowledge would be gone with her passing.

I'm not adopted, so I'm sure that makes the situation much more complex, but I do think it is entirely normal to become curious about your lineage as an older adult. I'd also venture to say that your reasons for learning more about your biological roots are probably quite different at this stage of your life than they might have been when you were younger. I can certainly see why counseling could be important for a younger person, but, I also think, as an older person, your motives and expectations could be quite reasonably explained as just normal curiosity.

Gaylene & Deb -- I definitely agree about that -- there are hundreds of people in their retirement years to prove it, too!! It's an enormous industry, in fact -- with forums and discussion groups every bit as active as ours, here. My husband was reconnected with a long-lost cousin this way -- she had appointed herself unofficial family geneaologist and tracked him down. He was a bit befuddled at first and then delighted.

Rachylou, 'why now?' indeed. I think Deb has a piece of the answer. I strongly suspect, as she suggested, that this sudden change of heart has something to do with my own aging, my parents' aging, and -- as Liz suggests -- also very likely the confusing sense of loss that accompanies dementia. All the things I liked about my mom are gone, and all the 'bad' stuff will never be put to rest.

I have a complicated relationship with my mother, and while I love her, aspects of her parenting style would probably qualify as emotional abuse. Our young lives were punctuated by my mom occasionally coming completely unhinged and screaming vile things at us. (Actually, more at my brother, because I was such a pleaser; I didn't get in much trouble until I was older). It didn't happen often but when it did, it was terrifying. And my gutless father let her do this. I have vivid memories of her destroying our books or toys in a fit of pique, of smashing cupboards and crockery, and of smearing food in my brother's hair, taunting him and calling him a pathetic crybaby, etc. As a child, I found this devastating, and was afraid of her, yet at the same time craved her approval. Clearly I have issues (which, yes, I have tried to address in counselling).

I also think my experience speaks to what Suz said about how adopted children can suffer the same abuses that natural children do, despite the screening process for adoptive parents.

But my mom experienced a traumatic upbringing herself -- far worse than mine, involving WWII, early abandonment, addicted father, uncertain financial situation etc -- and I could sympathize. And 98% of the time, she tried so hard to do the very best for us. I understood that then, and I understand that now. And now that she's three quarters of the way to la-la land, the person she was -- the good and the bad -- is gone. So it's all very complicated. I don't know exactly how this all affects my sudden desire to find my biological family, but I bet somehow it's a factor. A big factor.

Deb -- btw -- I don't think my children have ever expressed interest in my natural parents. They're still quite young, and they are secure. I wouldn't be finding out for them.

Liz -- wise advice.

I come from a family that had 5 children. I'm the youngest. My youngest brother and I were both very sick as infants. When I was 6 months old, my birth mother took us to the babysitter, and left my dad a dear John letter. My brother and I were taken care of by 2 separate friends of my dad. A year later, my dad married my mom (step). She had 5 children. Two really sick children and eight other children were more than they could handle.

My brother was adopted by the friend. He's always known that he was adopted. In the mid nineties, my mother contacted him and we all did meet him. He was near 30 years old.

I met her when I was thirteen. The relationship was never easy for either of us. I never really got closure or answers. I'm not sure she ever had them to give. I did get to know her as a person. I don't know if a meeting is the right thing for you, but both my brother and myself are glad that we did meet her.

My brother's adoption was the first in Ohio where the birth and adoptive parents knew each other. His mom taught my mother to drive a car. When he met our shared dad, his dad was excited to tell him stories about him. His parents attended the funerals of both my parents. In my family, it is not uncommon for ex spouses to come from out of state to pay their respects.

The happy ending came from getting to know my brother. I took a job in a paint shop that he was managing and really got to know him during that time. His mom is really happy that he got to know the siblings.

I think most families have their complications, whether they are blood related, blended, or adopted.

Oh my, Aziraphale, everything you--and many of the commenters here--have said rings true for me, no matter how contradictory. I, too, find the idea of giving up a child unthinkably painful, and always assumed that, were I not able to have children of my own, I would still not adopt. And yet I became an adoptive parent unexpectedly: our second daughter is actually our niece, whose unstable father disappeared after her mother's death when she was three. In some ways this makes our family's situation less difficult (she is biologically related to my husband, we've known her since birth, and can give her much more information about her parents than most adoptive families) but it doesn't change the central, often agonizing, fact of her abandonment. I have seen how that act has shaped her life, and left her with anxieties and self-doubts that nothing seems to touch. She is an extraordinarily resilient, intelligent, and loving young woman, successfully making her way through the world, but . . . there is a chaotic ache--part curiosity, part anger, part emptiness--that will always be with her. My own mother's situation was almost exactly the same (orphaned, abandoned by her father, raised by grandparents) so I have seen how that ache can persist throughout a long life. When my daughter asked me how I would feel about her looking for her father, I said only that I hoped she would wait until she was grown up and feeling secure in herself, because these meetings can be upsetting. At the moment, her anger at her father is such that she has no wish to meet him. But I'm sure that one day curiosity will overcome that, and she will search for him. If she finds him, and their meeting reassures or helps her in any way, I will be overjoyed. If it hurts her, I will be here to comfort her however I can. Nothing you feel or decide to do can be wrong in your situation, Aziraphale.

Tulle, the situation you describe is quite different from the typical adoption situation. I'm imagining what would have happened if for some reason my nephew found himself without parents. Of course we would step in. It would be responding to a family tragedy and helping 'save' a child we already know, which is different from applying to raise a stranger's baby out of a desire to become parents.

I'm sure your daughter will be fine in the long run. Having a loving and supportive adoptive family goes a long way, and it's true that kids are resilient. In the end, there are far worse things than knowing your father abandoned you, especially when you are welcomed into a caring adoptive family.

I guess I don't understand what seems to be your antagonism toward the idea of "applying to raise a stranger's baby out of a desire to become parents." The phrasing itself seems so hostile. I know I had my own child out of a deep biological need to be a parent, and if I hadn't had her, I would have loved some "stranger's" child, a child they didn't want or couldn't raise, with every single ounce of the same love. Yet this seems to be a negative for you, and I don't quite understand why. Not that you are obligated to explain yourself to me -- just that it may be worth it for you to explore.

I have absolutely no idea what I would do. It is hard for me to imagine feeling a bit off in my family because of our very strong identity as foreigners with no family here. So I always felt that we were in it together. However, I think that curiosity is natural and many times overwhelming.

I can say this, two of my best friends are adopted. The one with a fabulous, loving, supportive upbringing looked for her biological parents. I never thought that she would and it just seemingly came up one day out of the blue after knowing her for 25 years. She had never mentioned it before. But she, too, started to feel as if there is was something "missing". She needed to feel more "like" someone. She wanted to see flashes of herself in someone. Her expectations were rather clear, if not overly ambitious. It didn't go as planned.

My other friend, grew up in an alcoholic family with a mom who was emotionally abusive. She has no desire to know who her biological parents are ( at least for now ). She is completely committed to caring for her adoptive mother and feels that is enough.

Good luck.

Oh no, IK, it wasn't intended as hostile at all. I'm in favour of adoption, I really am. Of course adoptive parents love their babies as much as biological parents do! Human beings are flexible that way. As I've said before, it's the best solution for all involved -- the baby gets a better life (probably) than what she would have had, the adoptive couple gets to fulfill their dreams of parenthood, and even the adoptive mother, heartbreak aside, knows she's doing the best she can for her baby.

What I've been saying all along, though, is that raising someone else's baby is not for me. It's not that I'm not capable of loving a baby who isn't biologically mine. I just wouldn't have gone there on purpose. Had I been infertile, I would have taken it as a sign that I wasn't meant to have children, and I would have gone childless (my husband was OK with that). I had so many other interests and ambitions anyway. It took me a long time to decide whether I wanted to be a parent at all. I wasn't one of those little girls who played with dollies and dreamed of being a mother. The idea of looking after a baby made me a little panicky, truth be told! But these things can change when you meet someone you want to have children with. I loved the idea of making a family with this man. And I'm so glad I did. Best decision I ever made.

BUT...in taking that pregnancy plunge, I had to trust that I would feel differently about my own baby than babies in general. Here's the key: I didn't trust myself to be able to get attached to someone else's baby...and I didn't want that baby to grow up feeling disconnected, in the way I did.

For what it's worth, now that I've had two children of my own, I know I'd be up for it, if the situation arose -- like, in Tulle's case, where she adopted her niece. I could love that child like my own. But I wouldn't go looking to adopt a baby. My own childhood was too confusing.

Does that make sense? I don't mind explaining all this. In fact, it's kind of helpful to type it out. When these kinds of threads happen, it gets me to put into words why I feel the way I feel about things.

Attachment is... the knife-through-the-heart of subjects.

...have y'all ever thought about all the mothers you've had, who went by a different title?

Sometimes I think about that. My kindergarten teacher, my spiritual director in college, my great grandmother, my nursemaid, a neighbor here and there...

And of course, there are fatherly people too who've shepherded me along, who weren't my father-father. All my uncles, a college career counselor, a math teacher or two...

Yeah, I think it's valuable to try to 'know thyself' as much as possible. Also, man, I look back and there are a lot of things I thought I knew about myself that have changed.

For example, what Rachy says, I have thought a lot over time about 'mothers' I've had that went by a different title. I sought out much older women in my 20's as mentors and friends and learned quite a lot about how to be an adult woman from them. That's actually how I've been able to largely make peace lately with my own mom who didn't fill this role in a traditional sense after early childhood and has pretty much always lived in her own world but loves us.

Biology is a double-edged sword. I fear what I might have inherited, while I acknowledge some genetic gifts. Will I develop my mother's MS? How many of her very unique mental patterns are the result of brain lesions versus innate personality? Will mental disorders, anxieties, and depression in my family eventually reveal in myself as well?

Here's my brief exposure to the world of adoption: I barely dated in high school, and was focused on getting into college. There I met and married my husband, and we decided not to have children. Fast forward several decades. I was contacted by a woman who had been a good friend in high school. She's now the alumna rep for our high school class. A woman had contacted her who was trying to track down her birth parents. All she had were the first names of the boy and girl and the district of the high school. My nickname is her birth mother's name. My "friend" asked if she could contact me. Even though I had nothing to do with the situation, I was amazed at how unsettling and even invasive the whole thing felt anyway. Getting professional help for everyone involved would get my vote.

Hmmm...I don't think I've had any mother figures. I don't remember my early years very well -- certainly not any teacher I had before the age of about nine. I remember a nice one from grade seven, and a few more nice ones from high school, but I never developed a relationship with any of them. I had four very lovely aunties, and two loving grandmothers, but none of them lived in the same province -- in some cases, not even the same continent -- so they were never part of my everyday life. We keep in touch now, though -- at least, the ones who are still alive. But none of them would have qualified as mother figures. I wasn't made to attend church as a child, so no church community for me. (I couldn't join now even if I wanted to, because when you aren't brought up with religion, you end up not believing in god). I did do girl guides, but I joined for the friends. I can't even remember the leaders!

I guess I grew up pretty isolated from mentoring adults. Very Gen X, lol.

Classically casual, I'll keep your comment in mind. As I said before, I'm well aware that in most cases involving birth parents/offspring searching for each other end in disappointment.

Oh wait! I thought of one. My husband's mom became like a mother figure. But I didn't meet her until my early twenties. She welcomed me into their life right from the get-go, and she has been a good friend.

grew up pretty isolated from mentoring adults. Very Gen X, lol.

Ok. That's fascinating... and yes, very Gen X.

Being Gen X is something else all together now. We're the *scr$@#wed! generation. It's all one giant existential crisis. Born to fight the lie, except that was a lie - that the lie was a lie.

Rachy, I read the 'generational theory' thing fairly recently, and it piqued my interest. You know, the one about the four generations -- hero, nomad etc. I know it's just this idea that some guys made up, but a lot of it rang true for me. Apparently Gen X is a 'nomad' generation, and is similar to the generation that 'put the roar in the Roaring Twenties'. You know, disaffected youth and all that, but they matured into independent, practical middle-aged people who had to cope with the worst of the Great Depression. They think the same thing is coming down the pipe for us. If you've read it, I'd be interested to hear what you think.

Oh, I'm out of it. I haven't heard of this book. I am definitely interested. May have to give an old friend the book for X-mas too. He's ready to buy a boat and sail into the sunset. I - we - have lots of thoughts about being Gen X at least. I think I agree with the idea of us being disaffected and practical people who will cope, in the English sense, if you know what I mean. I think Gen X lives closer to the nitty gritty. We don't think we're gonna be young forever, and we were born long enough ago, in the mechanical age, to know that a trap-and-release program for skunks is stupid.

I don't really know anyone who is adopted, although I do know a few adults who have been involved in the process in one way or another. Some friends of ours adopted a baby nearly 2 years ago (she's now almost 3). And my brother-in-law's sister is a rather, ahem, messed up individual who has had several of her children, all with different fathers, taken away and put up for adoption by social services. She is not a horrible person but she has had a lot of drug issues and is totally irresponsible. I think my brother-in-law would be happy to meet some of these kids someday, since all of his other relatives have passed away. But I digress.

I find the subject interesting because I have considered adopting a child myself. The whole idea of pregnancy has always put me off and I have a medical condition that makes it unlikely that I could ever get pregnant. But at the same time I've also always been ambivalent about having kids, so I'm probably not a good candidate for adoption!

Anyway I have read in a number of places that very early actions, like holding the baby immediately after birth (or not) can affect how well that person can form attachments later on. I read several stories of adoptees who always felt disconnected and rejected by their parents on some level, even when there was absolutely nothing wrong with their upbringing.

In any case if I were adopted I think I'd definitely be curious about the identity of my biological parents and something of their story, but I don't know if I would actually want to meet them.

Rachy, I just read it online. Do a search for 'generational theory' or 'generational archetypes'. I think there is a book, although I can't remember what it's called, and I think it was written 20 year or so ago. I don't know what the academic response to the theory was, so read with a measure of skepticism (as I'm sure you always do), but the ideas have certainly been influential, if you go by all the articles that reference it. I read somewhere that a lot of the things the authors predicted have, in fact, come to pass.

Mander, the idea of pregnancy put me off, too. You're not the only one. (Although it's worth mentioning that in the end it could have been much worse...sometimes the anticipation is worse than the actual experience).

What you said -- 'I think I'd definitely be curious about the identity of my biological parents and something of their story, but I don't know if I would actually want to meet them' is kind of how I feel. If there was some magical way of meeting my adoptive parents without them knowing who I am, I would surely go for it.

Rabbit, what you say about fearing what you've inherited as well as acknowledging gifts -- YES. I've thought of that, too. I've always been kind of glad that I don't know about the specific weird ailment that run in my biological family (because there are ALWAYS weird ailments that run in every family!). And man oh man, have there every been times I've been glad that I'm not genetically related to my parents, for reasons purely related to physical problems. My mom in particular has had a lot of health issues.