DesmoApril, wow, I that must have been hard, finding out at eighteen. I think, on balance, it's better for adoptive parents to acknowledge the adoption early on. Although at this point in time they pretty much have to, because they are not normally the same ethnicity as their children.

I'm so sorry for all that you have been through, Desmo April... It makes my heart hurt.

Aziraphale, what you said makes such total sense. I work with some people who are trained in infant and toddler development and I have heard them speak (very emphatically) about the ability of infants to feel grief. I suspect that is at the root of many of these instinctual responses adopted children may have regarding adopting their own children. It sounds like such a gut feeling, and it makes perfect sense. I also wonder if there is an innate drive, even with those whose adoption experiences (such as yours) were positive, to have a biological connection with their own children to create more of a "peninsula effect" that you describe. This whole discussion gives me such hope for being able to understand the little ones in my family as they grow old enough to express some of their feelings and concerns. Thank you for being so open to share your journey.

I have a complicated relationship with the term white trash. The fact is my background passes as white trash--specifically of the trailer trash variety. I've worked very hard to rise above it and most of the time I think I succeed but sometimes something slips through.

I will use the term with friends in a self deprecating manner but I generally won't use it for anyone else. It's also one of the insults that hurts me the most. I can handle just about any variation of fat, ugly or stupid but not that one.

Regarding the term 'white trash': I meant it this way -- it's a kind of shorthand for people who are wilfully ignorant, and who take pride in that ignorance. The lack of education itself is not the problem.

But I won't use it anymore, DesmoApril. It's hurtful, even if you know you're not the kind of person I just described above.

I'm tired and on my phone, so I need to try to keep this brief, but I have a very close friend who is an adopted child. He met his birth mother as an adult, and after a very cautious introduction and getting-acquainted period, he now has a very happy relationship between her and his whole family. He was never interested in finding his birth parents -- the mother found him and contacted him some years ago, when his adoptive parents were still alive. He was very protective of his adopted parents and did not meet his birth mother for a very long time, after much correspondence. After his mom and then his dad passed away, he slowly let his birth mom (and her husband) into his family's life, and it has been a huge blessing. They're almost like another set of grandparents for their four children. He has learned some fascinating and valuable things about his family background, too.

So it can be a positive experience. If you choose to pursue it, I think it's wise to proceed slowly and thoughtfully.

As someone who never chose to have children of my own, I would have considered adopting. In fact, I've never ever loved the idea of being pregnant, so adoption has always appealed to me more than pregnancy. Yeah, I'm weird, I know. But then I met a man who already had two sons, and I became a stepmom instead.

...also, I use the term 'white trash' in quotes, which acknowledges the term as being fraught.

Thanks for the encouraging story, Janet!

You're not so weird in not wanting pregnancy. I endured it but did not enjoy it. I felt like an alien was living inside me and, truth be told, it grossed me out a bit! Also, I was swollen and ungainly, and I couldn't control my digestive system or see my feet for a lot of it. I remember going to a prenatal class and listening to this woman gush about it, and I wanted to pinch her. Lol

I, too, can't imagine how It would feel to give up a child at birth. I do know that my friend, Carol, was NOT given a choice--which, I suspect, played a big part in her depression and feelings of failure. Her mother and father made the decision for her. As far as they were concerned, instead of being a beloved daughter with a promising future, she had became a problem that needed to be "fixed" so her family's status in the community would not be damaged any further. Carrying the child for six months while working as an unpaid servant, and giving up the child immediately after it was born, was viewed as a just punishment for her "crime" in becoming pregnant. Her boyfriend's family were also instrumental in making sure that their son's future would not be compromised because of a "mistake" on his part. Two "nice" families who were intent on protecting their standing in the community, a son who made a "mistake" and a bright, funny, scared 17 year-old who had committed a "crime" by getting herself pregnant, and was told have the baby and then to pretend that the child never existed--just writing this down gets me angry all over again. The coercion and shaming that my friend, and other girls in similar situations, were made to feel was something to behold.

My adopted cousin got in touch with her birth mother as an adult. From what she shared the experience was largely positive. Her birth mother was a teen at the time of giving her up for adoption and warned her away from trying to find her birth father, who she said was 'not a good guy'.

I think that for me the question is about expectations. Both the birth parents' and the adoptees, and whether, being honest with themselves, they are really likely to be open-minded, compassionate, and accepting about something that hits as close emotionally as one's identity. If there is a range of possibilities they might discover that are not acceptable to the inquirer deep down -- different social class, education level, intelligence, politics, employment, troubled history, etc. then personally, I'm not quite as sure about opening Pandora's box. I'm not sure how fair that would be to both parties.

Hi again. I was going to start a new post in response to this quote from you, which you answered later (the part about your adopted dad coincidentally finding out some info on your birth parents). It was about your birth parents being from a mill town.

I was going to respond that this "fact" (maybe not in quotes now) could very well be a fiction. Adoption agencies do lie. Mine, the Louise Wise Agency in New York (which specialized in Jewish babies--for some reason everyone seemed to want one of "their own" type back in those days), was a highly unscrupulous adoption agency in some ways. They were sued out of existence in the 90's, in fact. It's an awful story (not mine). Some adoptive parents were given a baby boy, and not told that the mother was schizophrenic. Their son turned out to have schizophrenia too, and committed suicide as a young adult. It was heartbreaking, particularly that the information had been withheld from them.

In fact I'd now qualify my statement about wanting adopted children of my own. I would be totally worried about taking a child from Russian or Romania or somewhere where children were raised badly in orphanages and adopted as toddlers or children, after psychic damage was done. I know people dealing with older adopted kids, and it's not been easy. A sweet little baby girl from China--now that's a different story! (Editing to add that there is NO adoption that doesn't have issues...no kid without issues, whether adopted or not! So not downplaying challenges of ANY adoption.) However, it's now a fact that international adoptions have been closed down for the most part. So it's a moot point.

I think there's always a possibility of one's finding out they were a child of rape, or that their parent was mentally ill, or is now dead (which is going to be more and more likely, the longer you wait), which has to be disappointing.

It's also very likely that you would not like, or would not have liked, the birth parent(s) but could find some very likeable extended family to make the search worthwhile. I've heard those stories.

Unfortunately in my case, all my extended bio-family was dead, apart from two cousins and possibly an aunt...and even after being reunited, my bio-parents did not notify them.

They're still both alive, but we have not had contact for nearly twenty years.

Ack. The freaking Louise Wise Agency. My bio-mom gave them a beautiful little hand-embroidered dress to pass on to the adoptive family for me. When we first were reunited she asked if I'd received it. I checked with my adoptive parents. Of course, they never got it.

Chiming back in to say that I think babies are hugely robust. Losing their birth mom and landing someplace where they are loved is a lovely outcome. And frankly the number of people born to families where they feel a total outsider by far outnumbers the ones who feel snug as a bug with their blood relations.

If I had adopted, and I considered it, it would have been to share the advantages I have with a child who might not have them. To think that this deliberate act of caring would be deemed somehow less binding because I didn't make the child in my body is fairly painful to me. I can't force connection with anyone. I can provide what I can give and hope for the best, no matter where a child came from.

Again, I think you've brought up a number of personal opinions that would be worth discussing with a professional to bring you peace.

I totally agree with IK. I chose to adopt and I do not consider the bond to be less binding than my own children.

Aziriphale, I've said it before and I'll say it again -- you have a gift for starting hot topics.

I am not an adoptee. And I am not a therapist or trained in the field of adoption studies.

But I am an adoptive parent who has done an enormous amount of research in this area.

1. My daughter is one of Mochi's "sweet little baby girls" from China. I won't say a lot about that, except that as a parent, it is extremely clear to me that adoptees can suffer from their abandonment or relinquishment and/or their months in orphanage or foster care. They may also suffer from the stress their biological mothers experience (and/ or the malnutrition) while they are in the womb. Babies may not "remember" consciously, but as Bessel van der Kolk says, "the body keeps the score." And trauma has long, long tentacles.

True -- in our situation it is difficult to know whether trauma or genetic inheritance or some combination are to blame for the challenges our daughter faces -- because we do not know anything about our daughter's birth family. (This is due to the probable situation that led to her relinquishment -- One Child Policy). Add to that the stresses (very real, even today) of growing up Asian in a Caucasion family. If that won't make you feel different, I don't know what will! Put it all together and she is dealing with an unusually tough legacy. As her parents, so are we. This is not "normal parenting" -- if there is such a thing in the first place.

2. The feelings you described are normal. It is very, very common for adoptees to feel "alien" in their families -- even if they love their families and have superb relationships with them. And, you are right -- this experience is of a different kind and order than that of the biological child who never feels "at home" in her birth family.

I was one of those children. I still don't feel "at home" or "understood" within my family. I love them, and they love me, but they've never really "seen" me. Not their fault. It's just not in them. This is common for kids with artistic temperaments, full stop. (So, in your case, adoption may have compounded a tendency that might have already have been there.)

Regardless, your feelings are real and are on a different order from what kids in bio families feel.

3. As an adoptive parent, I would not (and do not) feel at all threatened by the idea of my child seeking her birth family. Many adopted children worry they might be hurting their families somehow if they initiate a search. But it shouldn't hurt the family -- and if it does, the family should "suck it up." In this case, the adoptee's needs should take precedence. Full stop.

4. It is also normal not to want the information. I'm close friends with a man who was adopted. Both his sisters were also adopted. When it came to their birth families, they took three different routes.

Sister 1 did the search and find -- and was terribly disappointed. Bad result all round. But...to be fair...Sister 1 is not an emotionally stable person to start. Sister 2 waffled for a while. Eventually she did the search and had a reasonably good result. She didn't love her birth family but she saw what she needed to see and maintains a decent if cool relationship with them.

My friend (the oldest and the boy in the family) didn't want to do anything. My family's my family, said he. It's not that he had a great relationship with his adoptive parents -- it was pretty fraught, to tell the truth. But he did identify with them on some level and just wasn't interested in the bio family.

Then he had a medical emergency and his wife (a doctor) insisted that he ask for the medical records, at least, for the sake of their two biological sons. He did so, and was very glad to have these records. So were his kids. (They were tweens at the time).

5. A person can feel as close or closer to an adoptive child as to a biological child. For all her differences from us (and they are many) our daughter shares some passions and predilections that I'm not sure a biological child could ever share to such a strong degree. This goes way beyond the cute ways that adopted kids come to mimic their adoptive parents and right to the core. So...for instance, in our case -- our daughter often feels like an alien due to not looking like us, having different abilities, etc. And yet, she is also an artist and lives in a family that "gets" that. How amazing is that?

In other words, this stuff is incredibly complicated and interesting.

Oh -- another point -- she is rather young to make this decision, but she is hoping to adopt herself when she is older. So there's another possible counter-example to your argument about adoption following adoption. I actually know quite a few adoptive and foster parents who were adopted themselves and have chosen this role explicitly because they feel they understand the emotional issues that adoptees and foster kids face.

6. Mochi is dead on. Adoption agencies (and other institutions involved with adoption) lie lie lie. Not everything you see on the papers will necessarily be true. Sometimes it will be. A lot depends on context. But you can't necessarily believe it.

Phew. This got long, and didn't answer your original question.

Would I want my medical records/ birth certificate if I were adopted? Would I search?

YES. I would.

Having grown up in a medical family, I understand the value and importance of medical records, if they can be had. I would get every bit of information possible to pass along to my children (esp. biological children, if I had any).

Having said that, I don't know if I would necessarily search to the limits of the earth or to the ends of my resources. I would search until I reached a place of personal satisfaction. I would know when I had reached that place. It might be once I found and established a relationship with the birth parents. Or, then again, it might be until I saw the records themselves. Who is to say.

I would also give myself permission to go in stages. Maybe the records are enough for one year. Maybe the other need will come later. And that's okay.

And before I searched, I would seek some counselling and support to help me understand what I was hoping to find, how to manage my own expectations, how to buttress myself with the support I would probably need. i'd wait until I was feeling strong and ready for this, and I would try to look on it as an adventure in self-knowledge.

ETA: And in case it is not clear, I love my daughter with all the passion (and then some) that I would feel for any biological child and feel incredibly deeply connected to her. I love my step-kids in a similar way (though not as intensely as I did not raise them.) So-- biology is definitely not the fundament of love. Or a sense of connection.

Now that I think about it, I wonder why you are putting weight on the second issue (of why you wouldn't want to adopt), since it seems to be irrelevant to you. Of course, if it's something that is upsetting you for whatever reason, it's still valid to discuss with someone. I'm only suggesting you might not need to feel bad about feeling bad, if you know what I mean. In a practical sense, it doesn't matter in your life, right?

Suz, thanks for your insights.

There were days with my family where I prayed I was adopted. Just saying.

Wow! thanks everybody for your anecdotes and suggestions. I might have to address the responses in more than one post.

I'm going to do Ironkurtin first, because your words stung a little. No disrespect intended, but you do not have firsthand experience with adoption, and if you have secondhand experience, you haven't mentioned it. What you said was dismissive. I think you are seeing adoption from the point of view of adoptive parents, and yes, it's a joyous thing for them. They get to be parents when otherwise they wouldn't have. I think you want it to be all sunshine and puppies. But for the birth mother (and possibly father), adoption is the best option out of a handful of terrible options. (Case in point: Gaylene's friend Carol). For the child, it's at the very least a non-ideal starting point in life.

I'm not saying adoption is a bad thing. The statistics show that adoptive kids are far better off than they would have been had they been raised in the families to which they were born. This makes perfect sense. These are unplanned babies, often from underprivileged families, who are then transferred to loving, usually financially stable couples who desperately want a child. But to not acknowledge that adopted children face specific challenges that natural children do not is just plain short-sighted.

(And before you say it, yes, of course, many natural children face far worse challenges -- alcoholic parents, poverty, and abuse, for instance. There are lots of people who get a 'non-ideal' start to life. I'm not saying adoptees have it worse than the rest of the world!).

Despite being raised in loving home, both my brother and I have faced and overcome some serious problems -- anorexia nervosa in my case, and galloping drug abuse in his. There are five (perhaps more) possible explanations for this:

1. There is something inherently wrong with us
2. My parents somehow bungled our upbringing
3. Our experiences outside the home influenced us in a negative way
4. Something about being adopted affected us
5. A combination of some or all of the above

Oh, and one more thing: I've been grinding my teeth for as long as I've had teeth. My childhood dentist couldn't figure out why a seemingly happy and well-adjusted little girl had ground all her teeth to stumps by the time she was six. Just saying (to borrow a phrase from you).

There's one thing you said that I do agree with, however. It's probably a very good idea to talk to a professional counsellor before going ahead with any searching.

Suz, Gaylene, Mochi, Rabbit -- I will be back soon to reply to your comments. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond with your insights! But right now, I've got an appointment to get snow tires put on the car.

I cut off all ties, communication, and relations with my father and his side of the famil 16 years ago. I haven't looked back. Most of them, I haven't seen or spoken to in 20 years. They were not good people. I won't go I to it, but both my sister and I made the decision to cease all contact. It was that bad. Neither of us have regretted it.

We do not feel connected to my mother's side, but we love them. And they are good people. We just grew up apart from them, and we chose very different paths. I am the first college educated person in our family, and my sister is the second. and, we both live in the suburbs of a city versus a very small town. It always feels strange when we go back to visit.

Back to your question . . . I can't say. I sometimes wished I was adopted so it would explain why I was so different.

Elisabeth -- you have to hear this story. The night we met our daughter, I was holding her and rocking her, trying to help her settle to sleep. Whether or not she was traumatized by being abandoned (and I think she was) she was definitely traumatized by being taken from one set of caregivers at the orphanage and given to us weird smelling, weird sounding strangers.

As I rocked her, I kept hearing this noise that I could not place. Like a rake on cement. Then I looked at her jaw. She didn't even have teeth yet -- and she was GRINDING them!!

We got her a mouthguard early on or she would probably have been in the same position you were at the dentist's.

ETA: Ariadne works for an adoptive families organization in Vancouver. You could PM her. She understands this issue from three sides of the table. And she is a very intelligent, kind, gracious, and articulate woman.

Shoot. I grind my teeth.

Yeah...well, I grind mine, too, as it happens. And lots and lots of people do. But it's interesting, nonetheless.

Also -- on the topic of comparative challenges -- when people say things like, "Lots of kids have crap to put up with, alcoholic parents, abusive parents, divorce, etc. etc." -- that is true. I may not have been adopted but I had to deal with a lot of stuff at home that certainly complicated my young life in various ways.

But who is to say adopted kids don't face those challenges, too?

Sure, if they're extremely lucky, being adopted may be the biggest family stressor they face. But let's be real here. I know plenty of adoptive parents who are every bit as messed up as non-adoptive parents, despite the extensive home studies that adoptive parents have to undergo. And yeah, I am not proud to admit it, but I was one of those would-be adopters who resented that prying home study at the time and don't feel sure it achieved anything. Yet what else can we do? We have to try to protect kids' interests somehow.

All this only to agree: Adoption is different. That doesn't mean it's worse. Or that it always and only results in pain. Just that it's a unique experience. That is always founded in pain. The birthparents', the child's, and often the adoptive parents', also.

No, I don't have firsthand experience with adoption (although I do have secondhand). But I hardly think it's all sunshine and puppies. C'mon. NOTHING ever is. Parenthood isn't, period. The whole area of traumatized, separated mothers and babies -- I can't weigh in on that. I don't know how often that's the case these days. For my friends who fostered to adopt, I can say unequivocally that the children are in a better place. Absolutely no doubt at all. Am I wrong to feel that often adoption is a blessing for all concerned, not JUST the parents?

You seem sure there is something wrong with you, which may or may not be related to being adopted. I want to assure you there is "something wrong" with all of us. I'd like to believe no one ever meant to cause you pain, from your birth parents to your adoptive ones to the people who enabled the process. Pain happens to us all, just in different packages -- we all grapple with feelings of isolation and abandonment, no matter who we are. If being adopted is a major trigger for you, as it seems to be, then addressing that can only be healing for you.

I'm back! Snow tires on.

Gaylene: 'I do know that my friend, Carol, was NOT given a choice--which, I suspect, played a big part in her depression and feelings of failure. Her mother and father made the decision for her.' This doesn't surprise me at all. I have no doubt this was a typical experience for pregnant teenaged girls in the 60s and 70s. My heart goes out to your friend. I'm curious about how it is in this decade for girls in the same predicament. I would hope some of the social stigma has lessened, although the act of giving up a baby must be no less heart wrenching. At least safe abortion is now a real option for most girls.

Rabbit: 'I think that for me the question is about expectations. Both the birth parents' and the adoptees, and whether, being honest with themselves, they are really likely to be open-minded, compassionate, and accepting about something that hits as close emotionally as one's identity.' Very true. In doing a search, I have to be prepared to accept that my genetic relatives may be much less than I hope. And can I be mature and compassionate, if that's the case? I hope so. Will I be hurt if, as in Mochi's case, they turn out to be unkind or unpleasant? Or will I be able to take it in stride?

Debbie: 'I totally agree with IK. I chose to adopt and I do not consider the bond to be less binding than my own children.' Then I am happy for you. Yours is a success story. I think my parents would say the same thing -- I don't think they could have loved us any more, and it didn't matter that we were adopted. As for my brother and I -- well, I can't speak for him, but speaking for myself, I love my parents -- sort of. But I can't deny that my childhood had some problems. I didn't see it at the time, but adopted kids typically have a lot of denial going on. Maybe these problems would have been worse had I been raised by my birth family, but there's no way of knowing. All I'm saying is that adoption is not without issues, because by definition it's a solution to a bad situation. The baby is unplanned and unwanted. It can work out well, if you're lucky. I also think the chances of success are higher if the adoptive parents are like Suz, who did her best to educate herself about the issues surrounding adoption.

Suz, thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough response. As I said above, you handled the adoption of your daughter with sensitivity and I applaud you. I also agree with this statement: 'A person can feel as close or closer to an adoptive child as to a biological child. For all her differences from us (and they are many) our daughter shares some passions and predilections that I'm not sure a biological child could ever share to such a strong degree.'
Yes, absolutely. Just as there are many natural children who feel like outsiders in their own families, there are adopted ones who fit right in in unexpected ways. So much of life is straight-up luck, but dedication, sensitivity and an open mind can go so far towards ensuring that you will be 'lucky'.

Mochi, I didn't realize I was putting weight on the issue of not wanting to adopt (because yup, for me it's irrelevant!). I had simply observed that none of the adoptees I've talked to in person would wish to adopt their own children, and I thought that says something about the challenges associated with being an adoptee. Does that make sense? I'm not upset about it.

Thistle, your story is a good example of how being a biological child is not always sunshine and puppies, either! I absolutely see that. (I also think it's common for kids to fantasize about being adopted at those times when they are particularly pissed off at their parents, lol).

Ironkurtin -- 'You seem sure there is something wrong with you, which may or may not be related to being adopted. I want to assure you there is "something wrong" with all of us.' Hehehehe Yep, you're probably right.

I know we all have unique advantages and disadvantages in life. I think what I'm trying to get at is what Suz put into words: 'Adoption is different. That doesn't mean it's worse. Or that it always and only results in pain. Just that it's a unique experience. That is always founded in pain [my boldface]. The birthparents', the child's, and often the adoptive parents', also.' Yes, it's a lovely solution for the adoptive parents, can often work out happily for the adoptive child too. For those reasons, I support adoption. But in an ideal world, there would be no unwanted babies. My personal first choice (first out of a series of seriously awful choices, which is why I've always been extremely careful with birth control) would be an early-term abortion.

Suz, that is funny about your daughter's grinding! I swear, there's something to that. Not that non-adoptees don't grind, of course...but most people don't do it to the extent that I do. OMG I've had so much bloody dental work.

ETA is Ariadne your daughter?

I have no standing here, just an interest. As a child I asked my mom over and over if I was adopted. I was a nanny to adopted children. And as an adult I've semi-obsessively wondered if I would seek out my bio parents if I were adopted.

What I've noticed is that some adoptees want to, and some don't. If you want to, I doubt that reciting the down sides of doing so will make you stop wanting to. Some people care about the nature of the biological bond, others much less so.

Also, the concept of pre-verbal trauma has developed a lot over the years.

All the best as you ponder this decision!

Thanks, Elisabeth. In support of parents in your a-parents' generation, there is much more openness in general now, and more education possible, than there was in their time, and I hope that adoptees in this generation are the beneficiaries.

I also think there may be more acceptance of difference overall. In that context, adoption can become (for some) just another difference. That seems to be how our daughter looks at it now.

No, Ariadne is a forum member here. And she lives in Vancouver. Check out her profile. She hasn't posted in a while but she is here. I have met her in person and she is a lovely person. She also happens to be a fine writer.

ETA: this Ariadne: http://youlookfab.com/member/ariadneb/

Ah, OK. I wasn't actually sure how old your daughter was -- for all I know, she could be an adult!

Thanks for the suggestion.