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Gender neutral, androgyny, tomboy...

skylurker

Veteran

...call it what you like, I have no strong feelings about it.
Most of my wardrobe can be labelled tomboy. I might be in denial, but I don’t think there’s some tremendous psychological explanation for it.
I think it mostly stems from being rectangular in shape, and loving functional, simple clothes.

Oddly : I don’t feel masculine at all in dressy menswear - shirts, trouser suits, dressy oxfords...to my eye, there are unisex work clothes. But I feel masculine in casual menswear.
I’m posting 2 instances here : flannel shirt with wide leg jeans. Very practical wear for balmy Fall weekend but feel borderline « butch » to me (I mean no insult by the word).

While I was at it, and since puffer vests featured on the blog this week, I also took pics of my trenchcoat with removable puffer vest. Pro : much lighter than a gabardine trench. Con : less breathable.

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30 replies

Latest reply was from skylurker

Runcarla

Veteran

Fab outfits for sliding into fall, skylurker. Don't you love a flannel shirt for comfort when the weather slides into cool temperatures?

I believe there IS a psychological element to what we reach for when we pull something off the rack, but it likely requires more time to analyze then most people want to invest. Also, if you can get dressed without experiencing a lot of angst and your outfits fall within environmental norms, there is no reason or requirement to delve too deep into the matter.

The 'What Not To Wear' style of shows were interesting to me, in part because they sorted some folks who were dressing way outside the environmental norm-either 'hiding in plain sight' under non-descript clothes, or dressing in 'costumes' to keep people from getting too close!
The best shows were when they brought someone 'round to a flattering closet while respecting their psychology.

LaPed

Veteran

The casual vs dressy observation is interesting. I wonder if it has something to do with tailoring? The more formal menswear-inspired clothes may highlight feminine aspects of your figure that relaxed-fit flannels and jeans obscure. I can imagine flannel/jeans combos that read as very femme rather than butch, and the differences have mostly to do with fit.

I like that navy trench a lot, a good middle ground between the too-severe black options and the ubiquitous tan ones.

Mirjana

Veteran

Fab outfits, I like very much flannel shirts and wear them with pleasure in Fall and Winter in different ways, with jeans, dressy pants and skirt. i understand you completely, flannel shirt and jeans are very practical, can be dress up and down. You look perfect , enjoy your outfits. Also, I love your navy trench,

Emily K

(website)

Veteran

I agree very much with your observation about casual vs dressy menswear-type clothing. Thank you for noting it so succinctly. Trousers and a button down would be ok for me, but NOT a golf shirt and chinos! Maybe there is a shared elegance to dressier clothes that appeals.

Anonymous

Yes, interesting observation , and I feel or experience menswear-style the same way. I recognize that the word "butch" is offensive to some, but it the only word I know that describes the vibe that certain menswear pieces contribute to. That vibe is desirable to some, as is the opposite , a very femme look. This is hopefully a preemptive strike against objections to using that word - and it being seen as derogatory.

Ok, that said, I absolutely FEAR looking too masculine or butch in certain clothes - and comes from mean comments delivered to every short haired girl back in the day. There is an elegance to classic , dressy menswear that isn't there in casual wear - and who doesn't wish for an element of elegance in their look? What am I even talking about? Gah. Sorry. I like your flannel shirt/wide leg pant look - it's unique and interesting .

Janet

(website)

Veteran

I have a soft spot for plaid flannel. I have no idea why, but I do like it, and I like your outfit.

This recent tomboy/androgyny/gender neutral focus here is interesting to me, but I feel like I can never really pull it off when done as a total look. I rely on a degree of masculinity or toughness in my outfits, but it is completely undone by my total lack of anything rectangular or boyish about my own physical looks. Plus I really like accessories like jewelry and handbags which lend a touch of femininity to the toughest or most gender-neutral outfits. I don't think I've ever feared looking too masculine, except for maybe once or twice back when I had short hair in my mid-20's.

skylurker

Veteran

Your comments are very interesting, I’m glad I started this conversation.

Runcarla : there’s a psychological element, yes, but fashion is more about sociology than psychology to me.
Environmental norms play a vital role. If I worked in a place where all women wore dresses, high heels, make-up...I’d probably feel awful being the only one in menswear. Actually I can’t think of a workplace with women all dressed feminine (a legal workplace I mean - we’re probably all more tomboyish than the previous generations?

La Pedestrienne : you’re probably right, but the feminist in me bristles at the idea that feminine means showing your body off *sigh*

Mirjana : thank you. I’ve just discovered that flannel shirts are as warm as cotton jumpers, and as I feel better in a shirt than in a jumper, I’ve found new love for them.

Emily K : we all have to trace our boundary between gender roles. Wearing golf shirts and chinos would be like crossing the boundary for me, too.

Lisa p : I understand, I share your fear. I had short hair for a decade. One day, a woman behind me in the supermarket said to the cashier, talking about me « le monsieur a oublié ça sur le tapis... » (= she called me « sir »).
I was shaken to the core. Decided on the spot to let my hair grow.

Janet : you make me realize I don’t make the association between hard edged and masculinity. I see your hard edged elements as rock chick.
I guess, for me, what’s associated with fantasy men (rocker, dandy...) is up for spoils, but what’s associated with real men on the streets (the golf shirts with chinos Emily spoke of) feels off boundary.

cinnamon fern

Veteran

slightly OT: I love that black and white shirt! could I ask where you got it?

Gaylene

Veteran

Another rectangle-shaped woman who loves simple, functional clothes here. And one who thinks “tomboy” is as legit a style goal as “bombshell”! And who has no problems wearing a pair of tailored chinos and a Breton-striped golf shirt for golfing instead of a cute golf skirt and girly top.

Can I also say a desire to “feminize” an outfit needs to originate in the mind of the wearer, not an observer. My femininity isn’t linked to a stereotype inside the mind of an observer, and it certainly isn’t at the mercy of the kind of clothing I choose to wear.

For what it’s worth, it’s interesting that, while a Chanel jacket is considered a very lady-like garment today, Coco Chanel was a staunch defender of the idea that women ought express themselves based on how they feel, and not how their gender supposedly tells them to feel.

Scarlet

Veteran

I don't know, but I love seeing your WIWs. I have realized with time that I have a hard time wearing button-downs because it just feels too masculine to me, even though I also want very practical, functional clothing. I have to stop myself from buying more button-downs because I like the way they look, but I don't reach for them as much at the end of the day. I have always been reigning in my feminine tendencies to fit in with my shlubby, male-dominated workplaces. My personal theory is that we all have a personal set-point where we feel comfortable. It doesn't change the fact that defying societal expectations requires a certain amount of energy. Thanks for sharing the puffer/trench look too. Very cool.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Isabelle, your innate poise and grace add a sublime dimension to your Tomboy style. Hence you are Elegant Tomboy. I've met you in person - where your grace comes to life - so I see these looks with an insider's eye I guess. You wear this vibe with panache. Full stop. That makes you feel fab, and it shows.

LOVE the layered hoodie.

Totally get the straight figure and ease with Tomboy style thing. I have the same experience. But I'm resisting the ease a little because I also have a very romantic and girly side. Want to flesh that out. And since I don't like things too easy - it's a fun leg of my style journey to explore.

We are as feminine as we feel. Always. You feel feminine in your masculine looks. I feel feminine with very short hair.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Well now I am distracted wondering why fashion is more sociological than anthropological. I guess fashion is more sociological, but dressing might be more anthropological? Hmm.
Ok, my first two or three jobs were in feminist non-profits in NYC. All women and some self-identified as butch (at least one self-identified as as a lipstick lesbian). Just to be clear, not all the women were lesbian nor did they all identify their style one way or the other. Butch and other generalizations and labels have a function in language - I don't agree they should be thrown out.
Anyway, I love the black and white check especially and would wear a trench that way if I could wear a trench at all.

Joy

Veteran

I hope that you continue to wear what pleases you. You look fabulous in your WIWs. I understand the style and rectangular body. Anything too frilly can look silly on my body...always has. I remember only too well how hideous I looked in 7th grade in multicolored crinoline slips that held full gathered skirts away from the body. I hope that fashion never returns!

Sal

Veteran

I love your style and I agree with Angie that it has a panache and confidence about it. And confidence is key to making any style work, or faking confidence.

The black and white checks are especially nice - I love monochrome.

skylurker

Veteran

Cinnamon fern : not OT at all, shirt is from a French brand (Sessùn).

Gaylene : to be honest, I feel zero pressure to feminize these days - I suppose pressure must have been low in your academic environment too, wasn’t it? - pressure was much stronger when I was at age to marry - that’s when people encouraged you to amp up the feminity to be more attractive - I don’t know how it is for young women nowadays.
I doubt Gabrielle Chanel had much concern for women feelings, but I think she was obsessed by the idea that fashionable clothes of her times were really cumbersome and uncomfortable (and too frilly for her personal taste) and you couldn’t DO anything in them. She set out to free women’s movements and make women’s clothes as comfy as men’s. If you understand French you can listen to her here : http://www.ina.fr/video/CAF89008551

Scarlet : I have no energy to fight social norms, don’t even see the point of it, I’m no rebel. If button downs fight with your body shape, they won’t function for you, just as skirts don’t function for me. I think it’s acceptable to be feminine in a male dominated place these days, as long as you’re not sexy.

Angie : thanks for your compliments. You’re right, attitude is part of the feminine/masculine package. I love the hood too, makes me feel youthful

Jaime : dressing anthropological, yes, sounds right to me. I vaguely remember it has to do with distinction of rank for social order and a play of cover/adorn for sexuality.
Fashion speaks in references (preppy, tomboy, French style, whatever), it doesn’t bother me. I’m so used to it, I don’t think I’d be eloquent enough to speak differently.
I’m intrigued : what’s wrong with trench coats?

Joy : gathered skirts sound nightmarish. I always feel at my lowest level of feminity in a 50s dress : it just seems to point out : there’re supposed to be curves there, and look there’s nothing!

Bijou

Veteran

I love your style and think you look elegant, feminine and stylish in all of these clothes. I think you would look killer fab in a Le Smoking outfit and can definitely see how this would be much more authentic and feminine than a 50's style dress on you (and well on most of us, to be honest)!

Anonymous

I feel weird with "androgyny" because I think it might be a specific look that people seek out. And I don't seek out androgyny: I just like to wear pants and sensible footwear.

Anyway, you have ultra feminine features despite being straight, so I can understand why you never feel manly.

I DO feel manly sometimes, and that makes me feel unattractive, and that in turn makes me feel bad. That is why I avoid short hair.

Anonymous

I forgot to tell you which outfits I like best, duh!
So:
I really like the trench coat outfit with the flared pants. Love this silhouette.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

I'm with Angie -- your innate grace and elegance always shine through and add a feminine flair. But then, I'm also one with a very high tolerance (nay, love) for menswear on women. Including myself. (Rectangle reporting for duty!) I do agree with Lisa, though, that there is something more feminine feeling about dressier menswear vs. the casual version. Maybe it is the textures of the clothing itself -- smoother, and alternately crisper or drapier than more casual items? Whatever it is, I feel a similar need to "feminize" my casual boys' inspired outfits, so it might be jeans, pullover, and sneakers but I like to add a scarf or some jewellery or lipstick or something -- the short hair really makes this crucial somehow.

Anonymous

You look beautiful to me!

So interesting about the dressy versus casual, I think lisa p's "elegance" factor is the overarching difference.

I never feel "manly" to myself but I'm aware of it as a factor to observers and I don't want to misdirect people about who I am.

Those "outside environmental norm" episodes of What Not To Wear were interesting to me too!

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

I love these outfits and found your comments very intriguing, as always. Your writing is a pleasure to read. I can see just from these outfits, when you pop on the trench coat, the bit of added dressiness does make the outfit seem more like your usual menswear-inspired looks. The flannel shirts and wide-legged trousers do look a bit tougher. I can also see what Angie says about there being a certain elegance to your look, regardless of whether you're in a more casual or slightly more formal, work-appropriate version of your "elegant tomboy" style.

Oh, and I really like the layered down hoody with the trench coat--perfect accompaniment to the flannel shirts.

Dianna

Veteran

I love your writing as much as I love your WIWs. I could read you for hours. I agree with Angie and others that you have an innate elegance and sense of style.

kellygirl

Veteran

You are the consummate elegant tomboy and I love your style. Love your WIWs!

chouette22

Veteran

I too enjoy your WIWs and eloquent writing and identify as a fellow rectangle who, however, doesn't struggle with finding skirts. I didn't wear them at all, nor dresses, until about 8 years ago and then embraced them whole-heartedly.

RobinF

Veteran

I like your style! It seems to suit you perfectly. You always look very "you". This is a great discussion and give me a lot of food for thought.

Lisa

Veteran

As a fellow preppy, menswear, tomboy fan, I adore these outfits. Especially the blue and white check shirt!

skylurker

Veteran

Sal & Isabel : I agree on the points of confidence and not wanting to misdirect observers.
To feel good to me, the outfit must feel authentic, not like a costume, not even like an armour, otherwise it’s difficult to breathe life into it.
OTOH, since I don’t think it’s awful to be gay, why should I care if I’m mistaken for a gay? I crave understanding for what I really am, apparently.
Concepts like « dress for the job you want » or enclothed cognition don’t ring true with my own experience - but I understand they might resonate with others.

Bijou : I’m sure a tuxedo would be easier to fit than a red carpet dress that said I’ve never been attracted to that cheeky Victor/Victoria look.

Smittie : I feel the same about androgyny. And short hair. To feel good in short hair now would require styling it (will not happen) or making my face up (won’t happen) or wear womenswear (nope).

Suz : yes, it’s like menswear add a layer of neglect to casual clothes. It’s like, you let your feminity go, so it’s one step further down the « letting go» slope, if that makes sense?

Firecracker : after seeing Texstyle’s last post, I thought : I could prettify the looks with jewellery, patterned belts...but it feels all wrong. What I could do is replace wide jeans by slimmer trousers, I suppose.

Firecracker, Dianna & chouette22 : thank you for your kind words on my writing, it’s very reassuring. I often worry that my long winded comments in broken English are tiresome to native speakers.

Lisa, Robin & kellygirl : thank you!

Brooklyn

Veteran

SL, your English is better than mine. You shouldn't worry. And you look elegant and fabulous, as always. I like the monochrome look of no 2, and also the unexpected pairing of flares and hoodie in the last outfit.

approprio

(website)

Veteran

Nicely done. I love those full length jeans on you.

Like you, I feel zero pressure to feminize, but gendered presentation is a bit of a moving target for me. Less androgyny, more gender-bending. Somedays are butch, somedays femme. They're my words and I'm keeping them.

I'm really intrigued by what you and Suz are saying about dressy menswear feeling more feminine, because I notice I'm the exact opposite. I feel far more femme in casual looks and I have to wonder what drives this. Here's a theory: could it be the icons we reference? Does it make a difference if you identify more with Marlene Dietrich or Kate Hepburn? Annie Lennox or Patti Smith?

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