Dressing in a fat body, via The Guardian - YouLookFab Forum

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Dressing

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Dressing in a fat body, via The Guardian

Kari

Veteran

Applauding all of this. I relate so much, and this is why I’m going to continue talking about this when I participate in this group.

“Personal style is about looking good to feel good. But I think there’s also something important to say. Fat people are always being asked to minimise their bodies, to make themselves more hidden, and I’m not interested in that... I want to present myself in a way that feels correct to who I am – I honour and respect my body; it’s about my own sense of aesthetic pride.“

“On the whole, though, the fashion industry still struggles with bodies outside of its parameters – not just fat bodies but women of colour, women with disabilities; there’s all kinds of folks that have been failed by the industry. You have to look at who’s running the industry. Often it’s white people, it’s men, occasionally white women. I feel suspicious of any industry that purports to speak to what all women need or should look like. On the other hand, the fashion industry is doing what the fashion industry does because most folks hate fat people; they’re not unique.”

https://www.theguardian.com/fa.....t-of-hacks

RE: the last sentence from the excerpt: based on an earlier post I made in YouLookFab, I’m expecting that I’ll be challenged on it and told that’s not true. I dithered about whether to cut before that quote and opted to leave it in. It’s important.

Instead, I ask: don’t respond by telling me that hatred and disgust is not there (at least, for fatness and fat bodies.) I see it daily, from vile comments online (I try to avoid them in public articles, but it still happens in so-called inclusive spaces) to subtler things like being the largest person in a room when folks are talking negatively about fatness and fat bodies. I know how fat bodies have been treated in media, both in fiction/scripted movies and TV as well as headless bodies on the news being used to demonstrate a “crisis”, probably without consent of the person belonging to that body.

I’m also weary of being told that I’m too sensitive or that I’m the only one seeing it, when it’s very clear folks see fat bodies as abnormal or defective in how they talk about them or design products that cannot be used by them. If you haven’t had that experience, please don’t tell me it doesn’t exist.

Thanks in advance!

Dressing

52 replies

Latest reply was from Barbara Diane

rachylou

Veteran

It’s interesting. I don’t know if MOST people hate fat people... but I’ll tell you this, ‘Californians’ hate fat people and think most people in the Midwest are fat... so therefore they ‘must’ like it.

No. People do really hate on fat people. That boss who told me to lose weight when I was dying of starvation... he’d really make evil ‘jokes’ about weight and grocery stores. I won’t repeat them. Jeez, the more and more I reflect on him... the more it hits me how evil he was.

... I btw got so mad at him, I walked out with my bicycle chained in his car port and left it there for two years. I told him to screw it and screw the bike. Ahaha! Dang.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

She's a really interesting writer. Nice to see her speaking out on this issue. And can't wait to see more of her style! I like her emphasis on how it has changed as she has matured and her career has heated up -- very honest.

Barbara Diane

Veteran

Still uncomfortable with the word "fat". And who gets to decide who is fat.

Kari

Veteran

Barbara, it’s important that the author is using that word to describe her own body - as do I. Some people are uncomfortable with that word, and I’m not going to tell them to use it about *their* bodies, but they similarly cannot tell me I’m not allowed to use that word about my own.

And yes. I’ve had people say that, many times, recently.

Kari

Veteran

Suz, me too.

Rachy, laughing at your revenge, and YES, I felt that in California SO much. Especially Southern California, with the exception of Disneyworld. Hell, I felt it back when I was in a “straight sized” body visiting in California. I’m not sure if I’d have the courage to wear my bikini on a beach there.

Kari

Veteran

(Also adding that when I, and many folks who have reclaimed the word, say “fat” about my body, or others who use that term, I’m not using it as a negative. It is a description like “tall.” Whereas “overweight” or “obese” are words that describe a body that’s defective compared to a “normal” standard. I don’t use those words about myself.)

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Kari, can I start by saying how stylish and super cute the author is! Below a pic, and like Suz, I'd love to see more of her style. I like that she's voicing her opinion.

I like the way you use the words "fat", "obese" and "overweight", Kari - or not use them, rather. That's food for thought, and different. Reclaiming the word “fat” sounds like a good idea after how you've explained it. I don't use these words in my line of work (and very sparingly during off work time because I'm conditioned that way). But clients often use these words about themselves, though.

Interestingly, of my clientele, those who wear the relatively larger sizes are generally more confident about their styles, their bodies, and accepting of the aging process than those who wear the smaller sizes.

A few more things:

Younger fat people are MUCH more confident about showcasing their bodies these days. I love it and power to them. They expose and do not hide, like back when I was a teen.

Watch Shrill

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Sal

Veteran

Language is problematic...

I do think reclaiming the word fat is a good thing. And trying to make it a factual rather than emotive or negative word. I also agree with Barbara Diane that we should get to choose how we talk about our own bodies....

Lesley

Veteran

Yes to Shrill!!!

I was just going to chime in that I adore Lindy West and her book, Shrill, that the show is based on, where she talks about all these things. Also super interesting was a piece on her beauty staples on Cup of Jo. She mentions that her Veronica Lake-style vixen look is not actually one she really identifies with, which was a surprise, since I thought it had become sort of her signature look, but one she feels like makeup artists impose on fat people for lack of better imagination. But she looks so beautiful in her less made-up looks, too.

https://cupofjo.com/2019/03/li.....interview/

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Lesley, YES. Love that! Aidy Bryant rocks.

Sal, I love you sensible and balanced views on life. Always a pleasure reading your thoughts.

Kari

Veteran

Definitely need to watch Shrill and many others on Hulu. I’m waiting til we can make a temporarily subscription worth it!

Roberta

Veteran

I bless my mother daily, for never ever telling me I should skip dessert, or that I didn't need a second helping, or maybe I could lose a little weight. The pressure of society to be slim feels much less personal, and as a result it's a little easier to fight. But I still have to yell at my brain, reminding myself not to judge the health of someone who's fat, not to assume they eat badly, etc. Anti-fat is a deep, deep prejudice.

What is a CRIME is that women larger than a size 16 have so few choices in clothing. Not only are clothes generally poorly made these days, the better made brands rarely go beyond a 14. One of the best articles I read about Shrill was an interview with the costume designer, who said that she had to make all the clothes that Aidy Bryant wore because she couldn't find anything cute for her character in the stores. 30 years ago, I was very glad I could sew.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Oh, yes, these things are deeply ingrained in our culture. To Roberta's point, on the other end of the spectrum, my mom would point out to me when I gained a few pounds (as if I didn't already know), and that was when I was about 20 lbs smaller than I am now! No wonder I still fight the urge to judge myself harshly.

Shrill was great.

Interesting piece and worth lots of thought -- thanks for sharing, Kari.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Kari I do appreciate your raising this issue and pointing us to these articles. Although I do think I follow a fairly diverse (not just size) bunch on instagrammers, I have consciously chosen to follow more "others" thanks to you.

CocoLion

(website)

Veteran

Thank you for sharing this article Kari. It brought up a lot of feelings about my Mom, who passed away June 30, 2019. It is a long process mourning your best friend, and the person who gave you life.

My late mother struggled her entire life with her weight. She finally got to 35 lbs above her "ideal weight" and felt a lot better, not having as much weight on her joints. Sometimes she was 80 lbs over her normal, which made her uncomfortable. She always referred to herself as fat and was one of those people who made jokes about herself. I think she used that word 'fat' to disarm people and get the topic out of the way. I do think people loved her direct, humorous way about everything including her weight.

In the 60s and 70s the country was thinner and she really stood out, felt discriminated against having a bigger body. She was also an immigrant with a German accent. It was OK to say rude things about Germans after WWII, and Germans took it mostly without complaint, thinking they deserved it. It was only in the 80s where I felt that change here in the US. (I thought it was the luxury cars that changed the perception.)

In my banker father's social circle, my Mom used to say no one had a fat wife. And so she spent decades trying different diets, with the hopes of being thin and the model corporate wife. I saw how my Mom struggled with these diets and watched her suffer. As I have aged I have put on 10 lbs of my own, and am in the process of using apps (Noom, LoseIt) to help me take it off. I don't want to suffer like my Mom did.

Yes there is still a lot of fat discrimination but it's so much more accepting than it was decades ago. We are, as a society making progress.

Kari

Veteran

While I agree that we have come a long way, can you understand that responding to this thread and saying you are pursuing dieting to avoid being in a body like mine is the opposite of supportive? Can we not do that, please?

(I’m not telling who is pursuing weight loss on their own to stop, but it’s one of the things that makes it clear that bodies like mine are not welcomed in spaces like this, when I hear folks, especially smaller people, talking about how they are striving to end up looking like me, or like other fat folks’ bodies.)

All my empathy for your late mom, and for your loss. That must have been quite painful for her.

Kari

Veteran

And thanks for the support, truly. It’s been fun to see more inclusive models, brands, resources featured here by others.

Jules

Veteran

Kari, thanks for posting that response. There was a good article a few months back about how it can make larger people feel to hear smaller people talk about such. I wanted to post it here but didn’t have the energy to write an accompanying post, because it’s a lot of work to think about everyone’s feelings when trying to point out how they might be hurting others’ feelings.
This is not about you or your post Cocolion, but I have seen many times here where a smaller person expresses ‘I know I’m supposed to have better body image so forgive me, but...’ (cue complaints about their weight, body, etc), and they seem to think it’s all about them and their feelings. That the only reason people might react negatively is because we want THEM to feel better about themselves and will try to force that on them. What about how we make others feel when we post?
I’m not trying to enforce good body image. I actually don’t even care how person X feels about their body, to be totally honest, I’m just not that interested in hearing negative thoughts about it ad nauseum. Boring.

Bijou

Veteran

A great read - I love this sentiment:
"I have a joyful relationship with clothes now, because I have found a style that works for me. I have also watched people in my life be miserable, choosing to hate themselves and police their own bodies into non-existence. I really don’t want to spend my whole life dieting myself into oblivion, being miserable and having clothes in my closet that don’t fit me; punishing myself for who I am rather than just living."

For me, YLF and the great community here has helped me to feel like this too. Accepting of myself for how I am NOW and getting on with enjoying life.

Kari

Veteran

Jules, I’m nodding. And I’m not wanting to stop anyone who needs to talk about their negative body image or diet culture stuff for their own reasons, but I cannot and will not participate in those discussions any more.

And that is one of the reasons why my posting here was sparse for a long time.

I’d love to see that article if you remember where it is.

Jenn

(website)

Veteran

And I’m not wanting to stop anyone who needs to talk about their negative body image or diet culture stuff for their own reasons, but I cannot and will not participate in those discussions any more.

YES! This is where I am too! I decided I'm just going to live in my body joyfully, and I'm not going to talk about myself the way I have in the past anymore. It's a struggle sometimes. I feel the explanations rising up when I mention what size I am. And it's not just my size, either. I'm doing a group photography project this month and yesterday's assignment was to post a selfie. So many (women, of course) posted with apologies--my hair is a mess, I just finished working out, I haven't showered this morning, I didn't put on makeup yet, my hair is still wet--and I get it. It's a sort of armor against criticism, and I have written/said all those things, but I'm DONE with that. Presenting yourself without excuses is scary and uncomfortable, but it also feels good and invites a different response than the apologies do.

Kari

Veteran

“Presenting yourself without excuses is scary and uncomfortable, but it also feels good and invites a different response than the apologies do.”

Going to repeat that to myself. Very wise!

Inge

(website)

This is my first time commenting on threads about this topic, and to be clear, not directed at anyone in specific-:-)

A) Because I’m not very eloquent writing about issues like these and am forever searching for the right words. And B) Because it often takes a lot of emotional energy really getting into this, energy I sometimes just don’t have.

But I’m chiming in now to say that I think it’s important that “this” (= how it can make larger people feel to hear smaller people talk about needing to lose weight etc.) is being discussed. Knowing that I’m not the only one who has felt this way, makes me feel less alone. > I am a larger person, and have felt hurt, upset and down about this. And "it" happens more than you probably realize, I’m not just talking about the YLF forum now, but also the online world in general, and in “real life”.

Many people don’t even give it a second thought because they simply aren’t aware of the fact that what they say might be hurtful or insulting. And I get it. If you’ve never personally experienced a certain problem, and it’s not been pointed out to you, then it may simply not occur to you that it could be problematic. That’s why conversations like these are so important.

It’s interesting/shocking how we all carry so much (un)conscious bias about being fat/body image (and yes, about lots of other things as well) with us.

E.g. a while ago, I had my yearly thyroid check-up (I have Hashimoto’s). I walked into the reception area and the receptionist immediately said — without knowing who I was or that I was there for that specific check-up — "Ah yes, you’re here for your diabetes blood test.” ( (nope).

At that time, I didn’t give it much thought. When I got home I realized she had just assumed I have diabetes because I am a heavier person. I was upset that she had “judged” me after looking at me for maybe two seconds.

On the other hand, it’s hard to always think about how we make others feel when we post/say something, because you never really know what might be an issue for someone else (I’m not just talking about weight and body image here, it could be so many other things). Plus I completely understand that smaller people can struggle with body image too (I did when I was at a lower weight), and they have a right to talk about it also. Being aware of our own prejudices and bias, and ingrained patterns, and being sensitive in how we write/talk about things is key, I think. Plus a willingness to listen and learn.

I certainly don’t have all the answers, but am glad we are talking about this. So thank you Kari and everyone else who has been so open about your own experiences and actively work on promoting more awareness.

Inge

(website)

P.S. Also a HUGE yes to everything you wrote, Jenn. I want to do more of that!!

wendy

I never weigh in on these threads, but really feel the need to speak up here.
I've been both obese and anorexic. I, personally, think telling a smaller person that it is inappropriate to post that they are dieting is also a form of body shaming. To dismiss that person's struggle as less than is, well, just plain wrong.

I think the posters here post with the best intentions and from their own experiences. Every post should be read with compassion and the understanding that each of us post from where we are.

Synne

Veteran

Thanks for the read, Kari (and everyone chiming in). I also find it difficult to join in in these kind of conversations, because of language barriers and not wanting to come across as a total brick head.

I do want to say that I think the premise of "hate" to be twisted. That thin folks HATE fat folk. In my opinion you can not ascribe other peoples motives or feelings, but everyone is of course entitled to their own emotions. Feeling hurt and broken are real feelings, and I have no problem understanding that this happens when listening to conversations where YOU, in effect, are labeled as OTHER. Meaning bad. Undesirable. But to call that hateful... I don't know.

I have endured many comments through the years, in the likes of "oh, I wish I was taller. But not THAT tall" (looking at me). I do not feel hated though. Thats on them. I find it provocative that talking about diet, weight loss etc. can be considered hate-speech. Interesting discussion, though. Thanks very much for sharing.

Synne

Veteran

ETA: missed the above post from Wendy before posting. (I use FOREVER to articulate in English).

Kari

Veteran

Wendy: this is not a post about diets or dieting. It is a post about a fat person, the author, about their experience being shamed for not dieting. I feel similarly. So do other folks who have spoken up on this thread.

I’ve also been very clear in prior threads that I do not want to talk about diets or weight loss on my own threads. It’s not my forum but folks can start their own threads to talk about those issues. Responding to THIS thread to share that they are trying to avoid their body becoming like mine, or like the author’s, is inappropriate and I ask again, please stop it. Take it to your own thread. I’m actively avoiding participating in diet culture and weight loss discussions and I do not want to do so here.

Inge, I may need to ask you to lock the thread because based on prior experience (like at the end of December) I do not trust all folks to respect those boundaries. I will, however, continue to discuss these topics as long as I’m participating here.

wendy

I'll make sure to not open your threads any longer.

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