Blocking exists on YouLookFab, and I’m totally fine if you want to use it. I’m also fine if you want to comment on my threads, but I’m firm about those boundaries and appreciate your respecting them.

Kari, I appreciate reading your posts and learning more on this topic, but I have to kindly ask you what you are looking for exactly when posting such dynamite (it is. In the best way.) to a discussion forum. You stated in your OP that:

"RE: the last sentence from the excerpt: based on an earlier post I made in YouLookFab, I’m expecting that I’ll be challenged on it and told that’s not true."

Implying (at least to me) that you are anticipating and ready to tackle, if any, counter-arguments, or thoughts on the article and topic. Others views.

But I can't help feel this is bait to call out hurtful comment(er)s. Especially when you want the thread closed. Is it shared experiences you prefer? General education on the topic? To make awareness? I feel kinda dumb. Maybe I am.

Synne, I don’t think I stated that as clearly as I should have. My apologies.

I am prickly about posting about these topics in YLF, but what I should have stated instead was the same boundaries. For example: Please, don’t reply to this thread dismissing the author’s experience of feeling she is hated as a fat person.

Or: please keep talk about diets and weight loss off of this thread.

I’ll aim to be more straightforward about that in the original post next time.

Kari thanks for the post and thread, I appreciate the author's sharing of her experience. so much of what she said resonates.

In Fashion, for myself, with a body just past the straight sizes what I get to purchase is limited in a lot of ways. and sometimes when I find something really great--it is often at a price point just beyond my range, which makes shopping even more challenging. While I have friends who can more easily indulge in the sample sales or the designer section of the Nordies rack to get designer duds at "fast fashion" prices

Since I was a small kid I have been teased about my body for one reason or another. ironically even at a very "skinny" size I received a comment from a guy of "if only she was 10lbs thinner". Many people still do have a fat phobia. Even my dad made an offhand comment about the "big girl" singing at the oscars. and I had to remind him "hey, everybody has a different body. there is no one correct size"

Also I love Jenn's comment: "I decided I'm just going to live in my body joyfully, and I'm not going to talk about myself the way I have in the past anymore. It's a struggle sometimes."

Im sometimes sad when I look at the awesome clothes in my closet that no longer fit, (from weight fluctuations, hormone changes, pizza and beer) But I also know that things always change, and my body does too. so they keep their place in my closet.

I'm appreciating my body for its ability to move, that it is healthy to carry me around the world, to do things. and if I get disillusioned I just remember the fabulous Venus of Willendorf in all her curvy glory.
.....And then I go browse online at shoes.....

So. . .I do a fair amount of reading and thinking about race and anti-racism. And oppression in its many manifestations and anti-oppression. White Fragility. So I'm also starting to think maybe Thin Fragility is also a thing (wherein fat people are pressured to make thin people comfortable or at least not uncomfortable).

DonnaF, there definitely is, though I don’t know that it’s at the same level as white fragility where the systemic racism and power dynamics are deeply ingrained in many of our countries’ history (certainly in the US.)

I know the way for me to make most people comfortable about my body is pretending I don’t like it and want to make it smaller. The idea that I’m opting out makes some people visibly uncomfortable. Describing my body as “fat” as if I was saying “tall” (I’m not tall) makes people uncomfortable. (To me, it’s a neutral word. I don’t use it about anyone else’s body unless they use that word to describe themselves.)
Talking about the ways other folks have shown that a body my size is an afterthought or is abnormal DEFINITELY makes people uncomfortable.

(As for why I’m doing this: there are other forum members and silent readers who have similar experiences to what the author shared. This forum doesn’t have very many folks in plus sizes who actively post. I’m trying to amplify voices who share what their experience is like, and for that reason, I don’t invite dissent stating that their experience is invalid.)

DonnaF, that's a really interesting analogy and I think there is some truth to it (with the caveats Kari mentioned.)

I think fat prejudice is definitely real, and definitely harmful. I also think there's a long tradition of women bonding over our supposed "flaws." There are many systemic reasons for this, and I don't mean to call out anyone who has engaged in it. (Most people feel some insecurity about their appearance and the pressure to participate in the self-put-downs can be intense.) But it doesn't serve us. It's clearly most harmful to those who obviously don't fit the current beauty standards, but it's harmful to everyone else, too.

Kari, I am genuinely sorry for the words I used and the story I told that was hurtful to you. I now fully understand how that is hurtful and made everyone here angry. Thank you Inge for fully explaining this.

Please don't leave YLF because of my selfish perspective. Your voice is needed, and we love your fabulous style. I appreciate the lesson from this experience, I am a lot older than you are but still trying to become a better person.

Apologies for only skimming through the previous comments, but your comment about reclaiming the word 'fat' made me think about the 'body neutrality' movement - have you heard of it? I like how it's different to 'body positivity' in that it doesn't attach any 'value' to being fat or skinny or whatever:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry.....86f49d31b4

"Body positivity transformed from a radical idea to a movement, and with that came some incredible strides for acceptance. But, for some, body positivity can lead to outcomes that are the opposite of its intended effect: There’s an argument that the overly commercialized version of the movement can also lead to more, sometimes accidental, body scrutiny ― “Are my curves the right proportion?” ― or make people feel guilty on days they don’t feel body-positive.

In short, body neutrality is rooted in acknowledging what your body does, not how it appears. Your body allows you to exercise, travel the world and experience new cultures. Your body gives you the ability to hold hands or hug someone you love. Your body gets you from point A to point B. "

(from the article linked above) What do you think? I can see how the second part could be problematic for those with disabilities, but I can also see how this thinking pushes for 'fat' to just become another attribute of someone (rather than a value judgement).

I'm not sure what you're looking for here. I'll take your word for it that you're looking for an honest discussion about the articles you post, but your follow-up posts are of a tone that makes it difficult to have that discussion. I don't believe that's your intent, BTW, but that kind of thought policing gets old really quickly unless one is looking for a fight, which I very much am not. I fully support the idea that you don't want to participate in diet/weight culture talk -- believe me, I don't, either -- but I don't think it's fair or honest to impose *your* boundaries on a post. Even one you decide to make. We can only control our own reactions. If people's reactions are too triggering, perhaps this is not the best forum for discussion. I enjoy reading the articles you post, but I'm going to refrain on commenting further because I feel like I'm gonna step in it, no matter where my intentions are at.

I absolutely get defensive when I have to have the same conversations about boundaries over and over on my posts on this site. It gets very old. I am using polite and direct language. I’m asking for it to stop. I won’t apologize for doing that.

CocoLion, thank you so much. I didn’t see it as selfish, just touching a raw nerve that the author and I both call out. I’m so sorry again for the loss of your mom.

Suz is right on, and I think that's exactly why people feel comfortable talking about the diets they're on without thinking that maybe it might be offensive, because it's been a given in our society that *of course* we all hate ourselves and *of course* we're all on diets.

I have been worried about that phenomenon because I see my 6-year-old picking up on it. Not with regard to weight, but I hear her saying self-deprecating things that sound like a script, because she wants someone to say, "No, you're adorable," or "No, you're smart." Meanwhile no one else in my house talks this way (not me, my husband, nor her older brother or sister). I believe it's the sort of stuff she's picking up from movies and TV, the fact that girls use putting themselves down as some sort of currency for bonding. It's repulsive and I am trying my best to re-program her!

Kari, thanks for bringing this article and author to my attention. Now I want to read her book In the Dream House!

The Hulu show Shrill...yes, it's great!... is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name. I heard this radio program with her on This American Life in 2016....and with Roxanne Gay, who's book Hunger is a powerful read. It may help shed light on reclaiming the word fat. Hearing that show really opened up my mind. ( I know I dm'd you this link when the other thread was closed, just posting it here for others)

Oh, Roxane Gay is B-R-I-L-L-I-A-N-T

“ I think that's exactly why people feel comfortable talking about the diets they're on without thinking that maybe it might be offensive, because it's been a given in our society that *of course* we all hate ourselves and *of course* we're all on diets.”

Totally agreed. And I know I grew up in that culture too (media, TV shows, conversations among women.)

Having friends who are recovering from eating disorders (of all sizes!) and knowing some folks who counsel people with eating disorders was one of my “aha” moments of “wow, that’s kinda messed up.”

Realizing that I was automatically going into a song and dance at medical appointments to ward off a lecture was another one.

If there’s still interest, can we maybe turn attention back to the article and not discussing the discussion?

I’ll back out for a while.

I love that universal standard (mentioned in the article ) has ALL the sizes. But, they do have a very clear aesthetic. One that I happen to really like and wear a lot, lucky me. But I am so impatient for the "fashion industry" and all it's dysfunction to catch up; get over the idea that we somehow need to separate the "normal" fems from the "fat" fems in style terms. How much we want to spend on shoes, and whether we like polka dots or not - now THOSE are some worthy categorizations.

I'm at the cusp of normal sizes and I WISH I could let go of anxiety about going up in size ONLY because then I have to figure out a whole new set of brands, stores, etc. that sell my size. SO LAME. Also, when I shop online I often find things that I think would look cute on a friend (and are on sale!) but then I look and realize that I can't link it to them because it's probably not in their size and, well, that would just be rubbing salt in the wound.

Come on, fashion. There's MONEY TO BE MADE. GET YOUR SH*T TOGETHER!

ETA, and did I also mention that there are plus size only brands that are also so cute and cut well for my shape, but they start at the size above mine. Can we call a size truce? Can brands just face the fact that people who want to buy their clothes actually do come in all sizes??

Hey Kari, I am glad you've been posting about this necessary topic. I want my 8 yr-old daughter to grow up knowing we can all dress our bodies stylishly; Any/all bodies are good bodies to have, hold, style and adorn; And she can be proud of her body at any size/shape/age.

You may have already seen these add'l resources, but I've found the writings of Lesley Kinzel (LesleyKinzel.com) and Marianne Kirby (MarianneKirby.com) to be excellent supplements. Marianne also has a great podcast called "It's time to get dressed," a series of brief chats and hacks about outfits she picked for her day. On Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/user-213036175/tracks Marianne can also be found at @TheRotund on Twitter.

Hi I really appreciate this post and the responses, as messy as it may get as we collectively try to figure out this trap many of us were raised in. In addition to body neutrality, I have also liked some of the writings I have seen by HAES (health at every size) practitioners. One really got to me (and I am so sorry I can't find the actual quote). Bottom line- it asked how much time and mental energy we/I had spent over our lifetime worrying about weight or body issues instead of devoting those thousands of hours toward being joyfully in the moment or achieving goals. In thinking about why women have not achieved equality in many arenas, the emphasis on dieting actually asks us to have less needs, and literally become smaller and take up less room. In the animal world, to show power, animals try to look larger and take up more room. So, by having women spend our amazing and talented energies in worrying about being inadequate and in making it socially desirable to minimize ourselves, this may keep us women hobbled and keep down the competition from us. What could we achieve in the world if all that time and sadness could be repurposed into making the world better? The barrier got inserted directly into our own minds from society's messaging and we promote it to each other and to our kids, by bonding over/discussing dieting. I agree I no longer want to spend another moment on dieting. It's tough, as a friend of mine is constantly on a diet and talking about it. A couple of times I have told her that I am no longer dieting. Now I basically don't respond to those conversation threads as I respect her autonomy to do what she wants but it is not healthy for me. It is a daily battle to love myself exactly as I am now but SO well worth it. As far as the non responding I got the idea from a book "What Shamu Taught me About a Happy Marriage," which says that the best way to extinguish a behavior is to not give it either negative or positive attention.

PS. However, it is good to educate each other as I think everyone wants to be the most supportive person they can and it can be hard to walk in another's shoes. So sharing our experiences can teach us all

Late coming back to this thread.
Kari, you have every right to describe your body the way you want. I like the idea of not having a charge on the word fat. I have a ways to go, although I understand it intellectually.