Do we really think our looks aren't "us"? - YouLookFab Forum

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Do we really think our looks aren't "us"?

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

This is sort of a spin-off of Adelfa's thread about self consciousness. Some people mentioned that they are bothered that they are judged by their looks not their accomplishments, personality, intelligence and so on.

Don't get me wrong - I am also bothered by this and particularly by the fact women are not allowed to age normally. I watched Parenthood last night and was stunned by how the grandmother's face hardly looked older than her granddaughters.

But aren't things like our intelligence, success in various arenas, personality, and so on determined by our genetic makeup, upbringing and effort? And is this very different than our looks - particularly as we age? Aren't we the total package? If a woman is born with high intelligence, exceptional musical talent, or athletic ability why is that more to her credit than being born looking like a model?
I am not completely sure where I am going with this but would love to know your thoughts!

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50 replies

Latest reply was from Jaime

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

Well, I guess my answer would be, I would rather try not to judge people, regardless of what the basis is. Appreciate them, yes. Notice, discern different talents, yes. But judge, no. So I think when we start making judgments about people based on their looks (e.g., pretty=good), then that's where the trouble lies. It's really with the judgment part.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Sharan that is very wise. You are right - judging is already a problem. But even appreciation and discernment requires recognition. So I guess my question would be why we prefer to be recognized for our x, y or z rather than our looks.

Echo

Veteran

I think the resentment comes in because looks seem to matter MORE than any of those other things. For example, when a woman makes it to a top position in government or business, her looks and her manner of dress or hairstyle are mentioned in the media far more often than they would be for a man. It seems that no matter how far a woman goes in arenas that should have nothing to do with looks, their looks are still up for discussion.

Of course, all parts of us are partially determined by genetics and partially determined by effort, but the vast majority of people are born without significant "gifts" in any area, so it really comes down to effort. And effort can often take a person a lot further in school and business than it can in looks. Effort can certainly make a difference in appearance, but when one's natural appearance is not valued by society as a whole (especially skin colour or ethnicity), effort can only take a person so far.

Last, society tends to value youth over everything else. And youth is fleeting for everyone. Our accomplishments can continue to grow over time, but inevitably our looks will reflect age to some degree. Much of that is beyond our ability to control, and so to be evaluated on it over all else seems unfair at best.

Firecracker (Sharan)

Veteran

Good point, shevia! Well, I think I'd like to be recognized for my looks, but perhaps that's because it's more elusive for me. I don't know that I'd like to be recognized for looks, to the exclusion of anything else. So if it's an either-or proposition, then I guess I'd rather be recognized for brains than beauty. It's a false dichotomy, though, isn't it? But still, there's that style-versus-substance belief that underlies my own admission, right there. Why? Maybe the people with smarts who got bullied long ago created the myth out of jealousy. Ultimately it seems nicer to recognize people for what they do than for the qualities they are born with.

Meow

Veteran

I can bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan......and I'M A WOMEN! BTW, I can also do Differential Equations, Cost Benefit Analysis, Permission slips, a killer Pot Roast and apply False Eyelashes! Just sayin!

Isabel

Veteran

Shevia, fascinating thoughts. I believe that there are strong genetic components to every thing that you listed regarding "talent", except success. Success is, IMO, not a genetic pre-determination; it is a consequence of a series of events.

One can be born into a situation where the odds are completely stacked in one's favor, but it doesn't mean guaranteed success. The development of that talent and the cultivation of intelligence and curiosity takes effort. As do our looks - to a certain point. Most women would look amazing after hours and hours of hair and makeup ( if they can afford it ). That is another issue because I cannot afford to do what Cindy Crawford does. I still wouldn't look like her but my personal best physically would be a whole other level. Cindy has a base line to start with that has nothing to do with effort or cultivation. I don't have the "look". Most women don't. And THAT, for her, was just pure luck.

With all that said, I have noticed a trend over the last few years where beautiful women are being given TOO much credit for being beautiful; it is presented as a character trait. The most recent was when it was announced that George Clooney was getting married. There was an article in a paper that said something along the lines that Clooney was marrying someone extremely accomplished. Then the article listed the "accomplishments" : Attended Oxford, top human rights lawyer, speaks 3 languages, beautiful, great taste in clothes. ( I don't remember the specifics of the number of languages ).

The fact that it made it seem that she had worked hard for her beauty and clothes seemed so banal to me. It also made me feel that if I met the author, he/she would have thought me a failure because I am not beautiful and I don't buy designer clothes.

Gigi

Veteran

Along the lines of what Isabel said, women don't seem to be valued as much for their *success* as for their physical beauty and youthful appearance. And that is the sticking point. I like how Isabel made the distinction between the gifts you're given in seed form due to your genetics and how success is the result of what you do with those gifts.

I have a friend who is not very smart but worked her tail off in school. Well, she is now a professor in macroeconomics at a large university. She especially hated math when she was younger, believe it or not. But she worked hard and has been incredibly successful. So even though others have better intellectual gifts genetically than my friend, her desire to persevere led to success. But if my friend worked her tail off to try to be beautiful, she would never look anything like a model or a movie star. A person can do a lot with a little when it comes to areas besides beauty, I think.

Style Fan

Veteran

I agree that beauty is not an accomplishment. I was at a friend's mother's funeral and at the eulogy they spoke of how beautiful she was (the mother). It was quite a big deal. I was very angry. This was her identity! Afterwards I said to my DH do not allow that to happen at my funeral.

Sharon

Veteran

I was listening to a radio show the other day where a man was describing a study he had done of the members of some of the most privileged, moneyed families in America(i.e.. a group with few environmental restrictions on achievement.) And he found that it was entirely predictable which members would be successful, based purely on personality traits (which are largely something we are born with!). He suggested we should therefore not attach too much praise to success or condemnation to failure, as much of it was determined before we were born.

Interestingly, my children were educated in the Montessori system where praising achievement was referred to a "stoning a child with kisses". The point being that praise should be directed at effort, which is within an individual's control, rather than outcomes, which often are not.

I suspect that with the evolution of a meritocracy in most developed countries, we are reluctant to acknowledge the role that luck has in our success. It is much more acceptable to recognise beauty as an accident of genetics and be dismissive of it's value than it is to see intelligence or talent in the same light. I think the trick is probably to see people for who they are rather than what they can do. For most of us, our interactions with the people around us and our impact on them will be our most significant contribution to our society.

krishnidoux

Veteran

What perspicacity. I see personal style as an indivisible whole.

I agree with Echo and Isabel: Yes, women re judged differently in general and it is unfair, and it's not who we are, it's how we are perceived by *society*. What is *society*? A vague amalgam of media, publicity, brainwashed notions... the secret, I think, is to concentrate on us and our immediate entourage instead. Do I feel good? Is what I am doing now having a positive result onto something or someone? People are brainwashed, we are all, but it can only change with individuals. A site like here is a great start for a change, because it refreshingly offers different models, we see clothes worn by real people, and, moreover, get to know some for their wit, humor, wisdom, heart... which give them another dimension, which in return makes us appreciate their personal style even more.

krishnidoux

Veteran

Sharon, what you wrote is most informative. It shows that in difficult times, better try than nothing. Because one of the perverse effect of placing too much importance on the success of the outcome is that sometimes one wouldn't even try.

cheryle (Dianthus)

(website)

Veteran

Very interesting question. Although I agree that it isn't fair to judge a person based on looks alone (or at all for that matter), I do believe that good looks can only take one so far for the average person. I am excluding those who are models as they are exceptions. There does seem to be a double standard for women in that many see a beautiful woman and conclude that she isn't intelligent as though beauty and intelligence are mutually exclusive. I have rarely seen/heard that same prejudice applied to men.

We, as a society, seem to value beauty in women more than intelligence but do we not do the same thing for men and athleticism? If not, then why does a star hockey player earn more than a doctor or even the president/prime minister?

What I find more disturbing than judging women based on beauty is the judgement against women who are successful in terms of their role as a parent. One rarely hears a negative indictment against a man who works long hours in a prominent position but often a successful woman is criticized for not putting her family first. I read Cheryl Sandberg's book "Leaning In" this past year and found it very interesting. She talked about behaviours and attitudes of both women and society that impact a woman's career.

I hope I haven't gone too far off topic here. I find the attitudes towards women in the workplace are often disappointing. I am hopeful that there will be true equality for the next generation now that young women are achieving higher levels of education than their male counterparts.

Anonymous

I'm not beautiful, and I do believe that people who are born beautiful would not be able to convince me that their beauty is something they had to develop. That makes me want to gag! I admire beauty, but don't think it should be overrated like it is in our society, and don't think it's fair that attractive people (as defined by society) should go further in life simply because they're attractive.

I have talents that were developed throughout my entire childhood, and some people assume those talents were not developed (AKA they think I was born with them). I was forced to change careers late in life, and it was traumatic because my career revolved around the talents I had worked so hard to develop. A dear friend of mine kindly counseled me and told me not to let my career define who I am. It took a while for that to sink in, but I transitioned to a totally different career and quit defining myself in those terms.

These days, I seem to be judged by how much money my DH and I make. It matters not that we worked hard for every cent, have made our $ grow by investing wisely, and that none of it was inherited. It's so pervasive that I don't bother to provide any information about our humble backgrounds that help us connect and relate to a variety of people from different walks of life. Just let them think we have it made and that we didn't do anything to deserve it. In the end, that's what they're going to think anyway.

It would be nice for someone to judge me based solely on my personality and how I relate to people. Very few people will ever do that, I'm afraid.

Suz

(website)

Veteran

I like what Sharon says - For most of us, our interactions with the people around us and our impact on them will be our most significant contribution to our society.

If we think about that, perhaps each of us can make the most of our natural inborn and our consciously developed gifts.

I don't think we "are" our looks -- but our looks are part of us, and people's attitudes to our looks can affect our characters as we grow for good and for ill. The way others see us and the messages they send us can shape who we become. If we feel pretty, we act pretty. But if nobody reflects "pretty" or "loveable" (or any other desirable trait) back to us, it is hard to maintain confidence in that trait.

"Beauty" is partly a result of winning a genetic lottery, and partly a function of being in the right time and place (what is beautiful in one culture or generation is less beautiful in another). But STYLE is something we can cultivate, and style affects our looks at least as much as beauty.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Fascinating discussion. I agree with Echo that a lot of the response to the issue of looks is that women are tired of being judged on looks before anything else.

But let's step back a moment. To Krishnidoux's point, who is really doing the judging, and why are we listening to them? The celebrity-obsessed media? We're buying into something just by arguing with them and spending effort on this, and in the process, I sometimes wonder if we're sabotaging our efforts to be taken seriously.

That said, the next time I see someone covering politics talking about how Hilary Clinton looks, I'm going to want to see an equal amount of time spent discussing the looks of her male colleagues.

But I'm also going to confess here that what I look like IS part of what and who I am. For better or for worse, we humans make snap judgments of other humans. How I groom and dress and style myself does reflect something of my inner life, otherwise I wouldn't be here on a style forum.

I don't really know (and I try not to care so much) where I fall on the global "attractiveness" spectrum, but I do know that heredity was pretty kind to me, all things considered. This is true with other traits of mine that have nothing to do with looks -- I'm healthy, I have some degree of natural intelligence that I was born with, and other abilities that came naturally to me. Some abilities I've had to work on to develop into full-blown talents (developing my natural creative and observational talents into a photography practice, developing a natural speaking voice into a broadcasting career), and others I have to be content to say, well, at least I can do it (developing my natural physical ability for endurance, rather than speed, so I can complete running and cycling events, but I'll never win them).

I view looks the same way. There are some traits I was born with, and I'll try to make the best of them. There are other traits I have never had and never will have, and oh well. I have been trying very hard to stop judging myself for not having something that it's impossible to develop! That means not judging others as well.

Great discussion, all. Thanks for starting this, Shevia.

Anonymous

Suz, you have a good point about style. I think that because I wasn't born beautiful, developing style is that much more important to me. This is because I feel the way people dress sends certain messages to the world. First impressions count, so I try to make the most of what God gave me.

That said, the way we treat people is what matters the most. A person's good looks doesn't mean anything to me if that person has a nasty disposition.

Peri

Veteran

I'm another one who thinks that physical beauty is more luck than accomplishment. That no matter how hard I try I will never look like a supermodel. But I also know that no matter how hard I practice, I will never play like Lang Lang. I keep trying in both areas, but I do lean toward thinking that hard work leading to accomplishments should be rewarded more than appearance, and that in our society for women it often isn't.

The other conundrum for me is "success". What is it and how do we define it? It's been mentioned in the thread...who is successful? It seems it is often defined as money, a leadership role of some sort, fame or public recognition. If I am kind and help other people, but don't make much money and no one knows who I am, I'm not a "success"? I think this sticky definition is as much a problem for men as it is for women.

Isabel

Veteran

I want to clarify that when I refer to beauty as an "accomplishment" to a certain point, I meant getting regular skin treatments, seeing dermatologists regularly, getting your hair done, having good teeth, working out 3 hours a day, look at Jennifer Hudson ! ...BUT for truly beautiful women, they are a level above because they started off beautiful. : )

Gigi, that is a great illustration and I think dovetails beautifully into what, I believe Sharon is talking about.

Sharon the talk you heard is fascinating, though, I am not sure that I agree. There is a huge problem ( well documented scientifically ) that labeling a child early on can cement a self-perception. Gigi beautifully show this by showing that intelligence may be fixed ( and that is debatable, it is thought that people can raise their IQs a few points ), working hard and practicing over and over again is not fixed. Most character traits are somewhat elastic. The best example are people who are negative Nellies and can learn to shift their thinking to become more positive. It all takes work, being born beautiful takes none. There has also been work done with children showing that children who struggle in class and hear other kids praised for being "smart" , label themselves as "dumb" and see it as a character issue that is fixed. I have learned to be very careful in making a big deal out of my kids "working" hard and not their IQ. The truth is that the world is run by C students. The majority are average. I think that we often become confused between intelligence and knowledge. Gigi's friend worked hard to get the knowledge that she needed to go far.

Dianthus, YES !!!! I didn't realize that was the point of the Clooney article. It struck me as I read your post. It was a big deal because society still expects bright, successful women in high positions to be "homely". So when someone contradicts that, it becomes front page news.

What an absolutely fantastic thread ! Thanks Shevia and everyone else. : )

Isabel

Veteran

Janet, it is important to me ( and the Amal Clooney article upsetting ) because I have an 11 year old daughter. She is listening to those messages. Though right now it is all about having a big "booty" and she is rail thin. She also struggles with math and thinks that it is just beyond her "natural" capabilities. It is not. It may take her longer to get it, it may take a lot of practice, but she can understand it and get. Unlike her brother, who grasps something in about 2 secs. But that doesn't mean that he has the creativity to apply things that he has learned. She is , in fact, better at that. There is still some stigma in her tween world between being blonde and intelligent ( she is blonde btw ) . She once said to me the her dark haired friends were smarter than she was and that someone said that was true. Who knows, but that shouldn't preclude her from applying herself. I believe that most of us are capable of learning just about anything. At least on a basic level. It drives me crazy when people say they don't understand anything about physics. I know for a fact that in 10 minutes I could teach them some physics and they would understand it, no problem.

I see too many girls thinking that science and math are not for them because "girls don't think that way"...ie. They don't have the part of the brain active enough to learn it.

It is a battle that I fight quietly every, single, day. Not just with my daughter , but with her friends.

Janet

(website)

Veteran

You're right, Isabel. Great points. Being a stepmom of two boys (now men), I think I'm slightly removed from that world, although I can see how many of my friends with daughters are struggling with those same messages. Actually, the boys should be learning to debunk those messages right along with the girls!

Isabel

Veteran

Janet, I do want to say that one of the goals for my daughter is that she NOT care about it. I want her to be like you and so many other women here : don't listen to the media. They are just trying to sell stuff ! LOL

( The booty comment is because there are a number of songs our right now about how a big booty is a great physical asset. We are having a HUGE booty moment in music history. )

Stylefan, your eulogist will say, " Her ravishing beauty never outshone her ravishing curiosity and kind heart. " Her friends here will make sure of it !

SarahTheWhite

Veteran

This is very interesting. I think that this is all about who is looking/judging. Strangers on the street and random people we interact with in minor ways only have so much data to work with in making an assessment. Our looks are the very first thing that others see, and I do think that to some degree we are all simply programmed to admire beauty. When I see a beautiful woman or man, I do take a moment to admire and appreciate that beauty. I can't help it. I'm struck with it. (Admiring great style is also in this category for me.). But I do think that society certainly takes that a step further and elevates it disproportionately. Then I think that what happens is the people who interact with us a little further (say, the repairman that you meet on multiple occasions to set up a job) begin to see a little further below the surface - that we are intelligent (or knowledgeable), impatient, kind, stubborn... Various traits start to emerge that add to what their initial assessment of age and beauty conjured. And then you have the people we work with everyday. They may not be our closest friends/family members, but they certainly know what our characters are. Things like beauty, style, intelligence, and skill all factor into what they think of us, but I can guarantee that things like our kindness (or lack thereof) reign supreme in their judgements of us as people. And finally, you have that group of people who are our nearest and dearest. These are the ones who know our character strengths and flaws, our beauty strengths and flaw... and everything in between, and love us unconditionally through it all. This is the group that matters the most, and yet who judges the least (or at lease should).

Just the other day, I had a situation happen where I was at a meeting with my boss, and she struck up a conversation with a woman that we will probably never see again. They were discussing parenting and how marriages play into how we parent. No one really drew me into the conversation and they were both talking too much for me to insert myself. I knew that my own 20 years of marriage and two children (and having lost one of those children) did have much insight to offer, but I honestly didn't feel the need to interject. They were doing a thorough enough job without me. At the end of the conversation, our new acquaintance turned to me, and asked "how old are you?" I was so shocked that I had to repeat the question back to her. When I told her that I was 42 (much too old to be asked outright in our society) she was shocked nearly speechless and admitted that she thought I was in my 20's. I know that I should have been flattered, but it was so awkward because my boss is only 3 years older than me, and this snap visual judgement that the woman made had actually cost an even deeper level of conversation that she still doesn't know could have existed had she probed farther beneath the surface. But in the end, I honestly don't care. My boss and other co-workers have long since learned to look below the exterior and see the qualities that lie beneath, and my deepest relationships in life are based on mutual love and acceptance. It just doesn't matter to me whether the random people on the street, or various people I interact with for an hour here or there think of me, as long as there are people in my life who know the real me.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Shevia, HIGH FIVE. I was thinking along similar lines yesterday with what you wrote here:

"If a woman is born with high intelligence, exceptional musical talent, or athletic ability why is that more to her credit than being born looking like a model?"

Being a brilliant model is as skilled as being a brilliant engineer. You only get to appreciate this when you work with models, or actually have to be a model yourself. Trust me on this.

Team Sharan. Each day I try to be less judgmental than the day before. Judgements are a natural thought process, and an EXTREMELY dangerous one.

And Suz, you are as wise as ever. I support all that you said too.

ironkurtin

Veteran

I think we only appreciate the effort that is put into being ANYthing if we have experienced it ourselves. It's easy to see being beautiful as "effortless" and somehow undeserved. But it takes time and discipline to develop and direct that beauty, just as it does talent. It's not just innately gifted. I think we've all met people skilled in one realm or another only to learn that's all they have and it's not very pleasant to spend time with them. For example, I've met several authors whose work I very much admired and just could not wait to get away from them. I've also met people who I initially thought were plain and realized they are more than beautiful.

I think what I truly dislike is being judged on something we never meant to convey -- like, "you must be sexually available!" or "you can't do math" or whatever. But since no one can really control what other people think, it's just kindof one of those things you have to take day by day. As someone not conventionally beautiful, I get a different gamut of responses than someone who is, but there you go. Life.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Shevia, it is true that every aspect of a person has a genetic basis. But those things you mention -- exceptional musical talent, say, or IQ, or athletic ability -- all of those things can be cultivated. To some degree you have to play the hand you're dealt (you probably can't be an olympic-level gymnast if you're five foot ten), but most things other than looks can be achieved with effort and perseverance. I suppose looks can be improved to some degree with effort -- makeup and flattering haircut/clothing etc -- but, I don't know, it just seems so superficial. If you learn how to do something well, it's a REAL achievement. If you're born with a pretty face, how lucky for you, but you did nothing to earn it. Even being born with great intelligence is useless if you don't put in some kind of serious effort to achieve something with it.

Plus, to really change something, you'd need a plastic surgeon. That's insane. And yet how many women go under the knife to change the face or body they present to the world? (I guess men do too, but far more women have cosmetic surgery).

I guess the whole thing annoys me because of the gender imbalance. We are all judged on looks, but women much more so. No one ever asked President Clinton about his designer suit, but they asked Hilary. And made relentless (often negative) comments about her looks and style. She had to work hard for her achievements to eclipse all that.

Jaime

(website)

Veteran

Wow! I am blown away by all the interesting and thought provoking directions this thread has taken. I will touch on a few and get back to the rest later since I am holding up dinner here.

Sharon, your comment reflects my starting point. Everything I have read and experienced suggests to me that much more than we usually consider is genetically determined - including personality traits such as perseverance, kindness, altruism and competitiveness. I am not saying we can't change or are completely determined, but as Angie and IK and others suggested, perhaps looks are not a simple gift granted at birth but must be developed and maintained as much as any other talent or skill.

Suz and bettycrocker I think personal style is the heart of the matter. Our personal style is the interaction of what we are given and what we make of it. But it is, in the end, largely a visual creation - it is what our looks in some sense. Where is the line between owning our personal style and being overly defined by it?

To basically everyone - yes, it is offensive that we are held up to standards that are impossible to maintain. Or even worse, extremely difficult but just possible enough to keep us trying, wasting energy that could be pursued in other areas. Again there is that mysterious line between not disowning our looks but not being defined by them exclusively.

And yes, it is a joy to have a place to throw out these ideas and have so many wise women discuss them! Thank you all and I can't wait to reread tomorrow!

Adelfa

Veteran

If we can go back to the idea of the pair of sisters where one is "the pretty one" and one is "the smart one," I know more than one pair where neither sister likes her role, and both feel diminished by it. So even though people respond more immediately to a beautiful woman, I wonder if, in these enlightened days, a woman might have to be both pretty and smart to be considered truly adequate. Plus a good mother, and on and on.

catgirl

Veteran

The information I learned on implicit bias showed that we are hardwired to make snap decisions, and that both biological and societal/cultural biases are ingrained. For instance, the feature that most determines whether one finds a face trustworthy is the depth of the indentation above the nose, between your eyebrows. Who has control over that? Race, gender, age, weight, accent - all these factors and more may create immediate impressions in our minds about a person's character without us even realizing it.

A good example: accents. When I was a kid, the cartoon characters with a Southern accent were usually dumb. The New York accent was a trickster smartypants rabbit. What does that tell a kid about who's smart and who isn't?

So much of what is considered beautiful is the same way - snap-judging features over which we have little control (skin color, height, bone structure) yet determined quickly, subconsciously influenced by biology, culture, and society.

If we are talking about style, rather than the being wearing the clothes, then I do believe that can be cultivated and admired for the talent and work it can take to dress well. But I don't fault people for not choosing style as their focus, any more than I would fault them for not taking up the violin.

deb

Veteran

Shevia, this question is so loaded for me in many ways. Since I was a child I have never thought of my body as 'me'. Not only because of looks but health reasons. My body is the place 'I' inhabit and basically no different than the house I live in. I try to take care of my body just like my house. I also believe look have played a large roll in all societies since the beginning of man. And for that matter, for the whole animal kingdom. Men preen just as often as women, I just do not think they talk about it.

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