I do understand Una's point, also. In addition to what you said, Lisa, about ingrained attitudes being difficult to untangle, and the guilt we can feel about not instantly feeling okay with ourselves, those of us who have a rebellious streak will also react against anything we're told we *should* do. Give me a rule and I will look for an exception. Every time.

In terms of ending the thought pattern...I think it must be different for different people. Some will find a way through or out through service to others. Some will find it through exploring what their bodies can do (vs how they look). Some will find it through treating their appearance as an expressive art, as I mentioned above -- a lot of the over 40 women bloggers (like Accidental Icon, Bag & a Beret, who you alerted me to, and this new Instagram sensation) seem to do that. Others will find their path out through focusing on their work or their families -- there are so many possibilities. And what works for one may not work for another.

I have often thought that two kinds of women may be more susceptible to this: Women who have been very pretty in youth and perhaps over-valued for their appearance (without being valued for their other strengths enough); and women who did not match society's expectations for beauty in the time/ place they were raised, and -- however lovely -- cannot see themselves this way because they were constantly put down in their youth.

Most of us fall someplace in between. Pretty "enough" (but also subject to pressures to stay that way); flawed "enough" to receive harsh comments or comparisons at some point in our lives and to suffer from those.

I think one solution might be to separate the idea of style from the idea of beauty (understood in conventional terms) or sexiness or prettiness.
Style is not any of those things, although they can be part of a great style.

Suz, simply keeping the right company can do wonders for positive body image. Stay away from those who make you feel bad about the way you look.

Great quote, Xtabay.

Oh, and I have been reading Stacy London's Truth About Style. I'll bet a lot of you have read it. She is brilliant on this topic and really great at celebrating women's distinctive beauty. It is not as if she's had it easy herself, either -- from terrible psoriasis in childhood, to eating disorders as a young adult (90 pound to 180 in year!) and having to compare herself to models and super-chic editors. And getting fired. So...she's a kind, human voice of compassion who will say get out there and rock who you are right now, even as you work towards the best you that you can become.

Yes, Angie, that is so true. I think a lot of young women especially engage in harsh comparisons.

I am lucky today as an adult because I don't think I have a single friend who makes me feel bad about how I look. Or anything else, for that matter.

As a writer, I do engage at times in unhealthy comparisons to others (wishing I could be as good or as successful as so and so). I think this is probably inevitable when we care passionately about something. So I deeply empathize with these feelings and I know what it is to struggle against them. In that situation the only solution is to devote myself to my own work. When I am actually working, I am happy and not comparing and despairing.

I can empathize with what everyone is saying, for sure. no easy answers, but I'm thankful that Angie has the compass here, because she's right.

You are what you eat, and your brain literally changes shape based on what you think. I'm working on shutting down negative thoughts. Doesn't mean I don't still beleive them, but if I just ignore then my brain has a chance to build stronger nurons around more productive things.

So many wise words on this thread... Thanks to everyone who commented.

Brilliant thread .A really sincere "from the heart " conversation about something I guess most of us deal with.

Thanks, Angie. I didn't want you to think I was undermining your message. Your wise focus on balance and your incredible wealth of knowledge and experience with real women brings so much perspective.

For me, growing up as a very small minority in a upscale homogenous New England community did a lot of damage, though it also gave me a core of inner strength and self-reliance. Add to that coming from another strong culture that also has deeply ingrained ideas of beauty (fair skin, hourglass figure, long hair...) and discusses it quite openly. "She has a good nose" or "she's too dark" or "not plump enough" - statements like these are simply made in a matter-of-fact way, like evaluating a piece of furniture. My immediate family was not like this, but the rest of our community could be judgmental. Very much to Suz's point and at that time, as a school age girl, there was no option of staying away. (That's a subject for another thread in the Off Topic section.).

And Suz, thank you for articulating an additional point - I am exactly that person who wants to buck at anything told I should do, even when it's good for me! It's why I waited to get married and to have a child. I appreciate Angie using the words "gentle reminder" rather than "absolute rule".

I do agree that there's only so much sympathy and commiseration to be had before it becomes a downward spiral. We are all at different places on our style journey, and some of us need more prodding along than others. Thankfully, most of the time I am too busy and active to dwell on nitpicking over body issues! And there are so many forum members to inspire me and light the way.

Hmm, can you tell this is fraught territory for me?

Xtabay, can I just say that I love that you quoted Hamlet?

Thanks for the reminder, Angie. Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.

Thanks, Viva. I truly believe that the answer to everything can be found somewhere in Shakespeare!

Or Seinfeld!

(Xtabay, and I believe that the answer to everything can be found in a Seinfeld episode).

Suz, you are blessed to be in ongoing excellent company. I also think that having a rock solid SO who likes the way you look helps.

Una, we are a product of our upbringing. But I also firmly believe that we have the power to change the way we think. It's very empowering. Can we make laughing daily an absolute rule?

Thanks, Jenava. I love your attitude.

HAHAHAHA. Una, look at what we wrote at the same time.

Love the Seinfeld references. Spot on!!

Oh my goodness, that is unbelievable. You guys have started sharing a brain!!!!

Thank you Angie. You are such a wonderful person. I hope one day I can hug you.
I can empathize with what others have said about these issues. I have worked with many women (and men) with body image issues. The issues run very deep. I have also struggled with my own stuff. I grew up being told I was not attractive by my mother. She had "issues".
At this point in my life I am happy with my body. I can walk, go to Yoga and do most of the things I want to. I am not as skinny as I was 20 years ago. If I worked out more I probably would be. I don't think that will happen.

Oh, I laugh at least hourly! My uncle in India belongs to a laughing club - so much more fun there than the corporate Western version that's trademarked laughter.

And I can and have changed the way I think by construing it as rebellion. If I can defy conventional beliefs in a polite and graceful way, so much the better. It's my way of taking back my childhood, and it's why I dress for myself as much as possible. ETA: Neither relentless negativity nor relentless positivity seem to help - it's the idea of taking action and fighting norms that motivates me somehow. Lightbulb moment...

ETA: SEINFELD! I can't tell you how many times DH says to me, "I'll tell you what you did, Caligula!"

Fraught for me too. My struggles are not with what my face looks like, it's with what my body looks like. I was the kid whose talents lay outside the norm of junior and senior high school environs. I didn't make the school sports teams nor was I popular in any high school way - instead I was uber competitive and successful in things no-one at school ever saw nor knew about. My appearance has been commented (positively though - and I don't say this in a boasting hammer - it just is what it is , and not necessarily a positive thing as it becomes the thing you think you can trade on and manipulate to your advantage) on ever since I can remember, so I associate that "success" with my younger/fittest self - even though I may be the only one making that association. I am by nature a super competitive person too - and acutely aware of what goes on around me and what other people look like. You know the funny thing? My dad used to comment in despair, even way back when I was a young adult, that "those magazines" were not a good thing for me to read and spend money on as they reinforced this need I had to buy new clothes constantly. "Those magazines" were of course the stacks and stacks of fashion magazines I have read since i was a kid. Image after image of ridiculously thin models telling me what looked good and what kind of body you needed to successfully wear clothes.

I think my dad was right.

I want to pick up on what Angie said in response to lisap:

"Lisa, I am empathetic to how you feel, and understand that feelings of such strong discontentment do not change overnight. It's a shame - and hard to believe - that you of all people feel this way, when all we see is a devastatingly attractive, pulled together, and stylish women with lots of sass and verve. I will spend my life telling you that - and hope that one day you will believe it too. I am tenacious will not give up that hope."

Here's the thing, though. Poor self esteem can come from all kinds of places, and it doesn't matter how much positive reinforcement you get from the world if that voice in your head is Intent on taking you down.

Angie, I totally agree with with your observation elsewhere that taking an interest in personal style fosters positive body image and outward self confidence. I discovered this at a very young age, and dressing well has always led me to take pleasure in my appearance even though I've never considered myself a great beauty,

Nonetheless, I identify with lisap and others, because we're all subject to this barrage of criticism about how we're supposed to behave and punished if we don't measure up. For instance, apparently the world thinks I'm glamorous and talented, but most of the time I feel like a freak. Honestly, I'd love to be able to fit in and have a steady job, but I've tried that and been fired more times than I care to count. People think I'm fearless for doing my own thing but I'm not that either. I do what I do because I can't do anything else. Wouldn't know how.

I've spent the last two years healing from a number of devastating losses and trying to find a new career direction. Things seem to be going well right now, thanks in part to a sympathetic therapist helping me come to terms with my particular pathology, and finding new strategies for dealing with it. But those voices persist, and they manifest as all kinds of anxieties, social and otherwise.

The point I'm trying to make is that the impact you have on the outside world is pretty much irrelevant to how you experience it yourself. I can never see the Liz that the people around me see. I'll only ever see her from the inside out.

I've been following this brilliant thread and enjoyed and been fascinated by each and every response.

Agreeing with Rose above...'from the heart'...definitely. Thanks for being a guiding hand and positive voice Angie.

I'm tired and perhaps a *little* cranky tonight which means my honesty gauge is cranked to the max.

I just wonder why we view the best in others and the worst in ourselves? Why can we not apply the same kindness inwards?

I spent the yesterday soaked to the skin, singing at the top of my voice, crammed onto a tram, dancing at a stadium and not giving two hoots about my appearance. Doing really is the best antidote to introspection. Can you imagine how liberating a world without mirrors would be?

I am looking to focus on the here and now, I don't wish to think of the body of yesterday or imagine a more stylish tomorrow. I want to enjoy today (even when my body aches and my roots need done).

I know my optimism will rub some people up the wrong way. I have not had an easy life, I promised myself as a teenager I would never be a victim of my circumstances and here I am.

Angie, you're a gem xo

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I think the Healthy Habits weekly post was good because it did what Angie is getting at...putting the wish to change in a positive light instead of a negative one. A weekly what we did well instead of in what ways we blew it. Shedev used to post it. I don't mind starting it back up, but don't want to take it away from her.

One thing I do that I think is helpful, and it wasn't a struggle, it's just how I view things, is to see my "issue" in practical terms. I should lose some of the pounds I gained because I'm uncomfortable and my pants are tight, not because I look awful and need to look better. It isn't "fraught" it's just a fact. Now I feel lucky that whatever upbringing I'm a product of didn't make this so difficult for me, and sympathize with those who find it harder to separate.

This thread has understandably sparked a myriad of emotions, and that's good.

Style Fan, I hope to meet you one day too. Thanks for the kind and wise words.

Una, I'm back to suggesting a sense of balance. It's key in all of this.

Diane, hugs to you.

Jules, your positive attitude, generous spirit, and ongoing wisdom have always been an inspiration to me. Glad you had a fab time at the concert. Cute pic of you and Ben.

Liz and Lisa, I understand that low self esteem and feelings of inferiority can be deeply rooted and very hard to shake. It is my hope that you both see the amazing women that we see.

Peri, I like your attitude.

I have come very late to this thread and am a little flummoxed as to what I can add.

However I will commit to starting the Healthy Habits thread on a weekly basis - if I happen to forget someone else is welcome to start it, I will not be offended.

Three months ago, well on my way to losing the last 5 pounds of winter holiday weight, I bought a pair of Sanctuary pants in olive, in my summer size. I tried them on several times and "waited" but not until this morning did I decide to wear them the first time. They are still tight in the waist. but are bearable when standing or walking and I found the perfect top to cover muffin top on a hot first day of summer. (I'll have to unzip them when I sit more than 5 minutes, but hey, maybe the waist will stretch.)

I'm having a hard time accepting my relatively new apple middle. I keep thinking if I lose a few more pounds, I'll go back to my flatter belly.

I hate most tunics with a passion because they make me look more pregnant than when I was 7 months along in my mid-20s. Of course i was underweight then--some kind of metabolic problem.

So thank you, Angie. Today is a reminder that I'm very lucky to be reasonably healthy, and that I can't control every thing about my body and aging. Be thankful for what I've got now and enjoy the clothes I can wear today.

I've missed Healthy Habits and hope we do start it up. Beginning of summer is a good time--all those great fresh fruits and vegetables waiting for us.

I totally get what you are saying Liz. I have always struggled with fitting in. But I also won't do what I know will help me to fit in if it goes against my beliefs.
My interest in fashion has helped me with my body image in the last decade. I no longer read fashion magazines (I stopped when I worked in an eating disorders clinic). Doing that helped a lot. I look at fashion as a way to express my creativity. Fashion is not going to boss me around. It is my tool.

I, too, came into this thread late. But I am humbled and awestruck at the insights spoken here. I am finding as I work with more women (and men) who have chosen to lose weight through gastric bypass surgery that the struggle with self-esteem is not just in how we look on the outside, but it's the voice inside our head that brings up fear (of failure) and self-doubt. So, we actually work with people in a two-pronged approach -- inner and outer confidence-building.

I love and agree with your approach, Angie, because I see people gain self-esteem when they see their beauty on the outside. It reinforces that we are worthy and deserve to look and feel good.

I use a daily practice of positive mantras that raise my vibration and set me on a productive path. Every day. It's a one-day-at-a-time practice, because as we all know, one bad comment from someone or one small failure can bring forth those negative body image thoughts.

I've been watching this thread for several hours but only just now am able to comment. I just noticed what truecolors just posted and I'm on a similar wavelength.

First of all let me say I'm so impressed at how open and honest so many of you are willing to be, especially given that most of us have never met. My hat is off to you for your courage! And also loving so many wise comments from everyone.

Weak self-esteem is a really big thing, it's so difficult. I too have struggled with it for my whole life and although for me it continually improves it always feels like I don't have enough of it. Maybe by the time I'm 90....:-)

What I try to do is let the positive voices in my head be the ones I listen to most of the time. We all have them although sometimes they are buried so deep or so overshadowed by the negative ones that we can't find them. It takes practice, often requiring a counsellor or therapist to get you started. I learned some techniques in a weekend session at a yoga retreat a few years ago. The more I practice this the easier it gets but it's not something were you are ever "done". Ledonna described one way of doing it in that other thread where she talked about looking in the mirror and being grateful for your body. The Hamlet quote is also an example. My upbringing was full of messages that praising yourself is a bad thing (arrogant, selfish) but I have worked hard to stop listening to that because sometimes self-praise it is very healthy and just what you need. I know everyone's situation is different and I don't mean to say I have all the answers.

Angie we are so lucky to have your guidance, warmth, and kindness.