I'm really late to this post and haven't had time to read all the comments. Nevertheless, I feel I must respond. But first, thanks to gryffin and all the rest of you who have made it such interesting reading.

First, some background. For over forty years I worked in Information Technology as a software developer, manager and departmental director. Everywhere I worked had a dress code, and it was invariably formal. I hate formal business clothes and don't think I ever looked especially good in them, although people did occasionally complement me on looking very professional. To make matters worse, I spent seven years taking care of my very ill husband. When he finally died I was devastated, but I was also finally able to retire.

Now, a few years later, all I want is to be comfortable and happy. I have always loved interior design and have spent much time decorating my apartment. Now, for the first time in my life, I'm finding that clothing can be as interesting as furniture and paint. But there's a problem. I've gone from being told exactly what to wear to having endless choices and, of course, no husband to comment or make suggestions.

Nevertheless, I'm determined to develop a better functioning wardrobe. Having read about half the responses to this post, it seems that dressing to please others is a useless goal, because we have no way of knowing how we will be perceived by others or what value they will attach to items of our apparel. I'm coming to the realization that, for the first time in my life, I should dress mainly to please myself. I'm thinking comfort and beauty. And of course safety.

Well, I wear the things that say "You won't like me" and not "Let's play!" For example, in the late '80s/early '90s, I think it was Juicy Couture, hoop earrings, and high ponytails that said "let's play." Charmers tend to do trendy-yet-conventional.

It's a filter, but not a precision one.

Gryffin, you were very gracious in your reply to me!

I mentioned this on another thread (IK's I think), but sometimes I dress to try to tell strange men not to talk to me. Essentially I kick the primness up a few notches, make sure I'm wearing neutrals vs colours, and don't go for a super body-con silhouette. But it's a mild approach, as I'm still wearing my normal clothes that make me happy. I've also noticed when I have shorter hair (even a bob, not just a pixie), I'm approached less by creeps. Good thing I like short hair on myself, because that just makes it an added bonus! I love RachyLou's "You won't like me" and "Let's not play" messages: that's really what I'm going for when I go to a cafe.

When I travel, I try to make sure my outfits look like that country's equivalent of what a 'good girl' would wear, as gross as that sounds (and is): I want to look like men's sisters, not the stereotypical 'loose' American woman they've seen in movies. I carry myself differently too & act shocked at things a la Doris Day just to make sure the message is getting across. I usually travel solo, so I need to be cautious about things, but at the same time I love getting to know people when I travel, so I refuse to just not talk to anyone! But that's a whole other thread.

This has been such a thought-provoking thread! I've read it in a few bursts over the last couple of days, but this is the first time I've had time to weigh in with my (paltry?) contribution.

I think I'm a little clearer on what I don't want to say with my clothes than what I do. I feel really weird when I'm wearing something I associate with a "tribe" that isn't remotely my own. So I try to stay far away from anything in danger of veering into, for instance, sporty, preppy, rock-chick, or anything that feels more rural than urban. More subtly, I get really uncomfortable in clothes that feel like they're wearing me for whatever reason, even if I can't exactly articulate why.

What do I want to say? Still trying to figure that out.

The discussion upthread of whether petite women may find it especially appealing to convey strength through their style connected with me. I'm not as concerned about looking "strong" in particular, but I think I do want to convey in some kind of vague way that I have hidden depths. Sort of like: "Well, duh, of course I'm short and soft and shy and sweet, but that's not all I am."

Rabbit's (I think?) observation about how she feels more comfortable in styles that allow her to move between different groups of people without being pinned down also resonated with me. Related to that, I generally don't want to look exactly like everyone else, but also don't want to look like someone who's really making a point of being different. While I can appreciate the impulses that might make someone want to do either one, I feel better somewhere in the middle.

I just have to say -- holy moly does this thread ever have legs.

Ik - okay I think I understand where you are coming from now. That style, does not hold the same connotations to me, thus the disconnect. But I see how they could be your "leave me alone" wear. Thanks for explaining.
Catnip - that must be disorienting. Like a kids let loose in a candy shop. You spend you whole life on a road that's strictly mapped out for you and now all of a sudden you have 360 degrees of space. Scary but exciting too. Dressing for comfort, safety and beauty, sounds awesome. If you love interior design, then you should have such a good time with this. It's all about proportion, balance, scale and creating a mood and or course achieving comfort!! I so look forward to seeing where this takes you!!
Rachylou - so if I read you right, you would move to more tailored, professional, angular pieces. Solids over prints, jackets over cardis. that kind of thing. would that be right?
E - I think it is very smart for a woman who travels alone to really evaluate what she is wearing. As you say, dress can invite the wrong kind of attention. I also find that professional and ladylike dress can also get, for lack of a better term, the right type of attention. I have a different style from you. I can see men reacting to some of your outfits in a way they would a cherished sister. I would think your outfits with their old world charm would make people feel very protective of you. They do have a "good girl" feel and E, what is wrong with that? (hey from another good girl!!) Or as my beloved Nana would say, "you want to look like a lady" although you E, I think enchanted fairy would be a better term!! But I find since I wear a lot of blazers, my tops although fitted are always modest (high crews), monochromatic (okay black), short bob and I try and treat everyone with great courtesy and respect, I usually am treated in the same way. Perhaps it's not fashionable but most people treat me like a lady because I think that's how I see and present myself. I also think meeting people is wonderful and I am sure that when they speak to you their visual impression is confirmed by your conversation and actions that you are a lovely, refined, young woman who is to be respected and treated with courtesy, decorum and kindness!

Wow! This is a popular thread. I need to take some more time to read through all of the posts. I have no idea what message I'm trying to convey through my style. I'm not sure I have an intentional style yet. I guess that why I'm on YLF! I know there are a lot of messages I'm trying NOT to convey. More thought needed ...

Aubergine - I think those are all great insights. I really liked Rabbit's poing about being able to move between different groups with dress and still feel comfortable. I don't think I have that gift of observation and adaption but I really admire it. I think that's also a really good point for a lot of us that we want dress to intimate that there is more going on below the surface. I think that's where the personal pieces that give clues to other facets of our personalities and lives may come in. I thihk what your saying about staying away from things that are not you, really reminds of of Suz's thread on comfort zone (Do we all feel that we've come full circle now since that tread is what started this thread!!) You want to feel like you not like you are in someones elses clothing. I think that's really important. I also liked that your last point seems to be that you don't want to be different just for the sake of being different. No rebel without a cause. I think that is a super important point. Such good insights Aubergine!!
Aziraphale - Oy girl, you said it!! ;-D

kerry - the first of step toward insight is figuring out what you don't know!! That's the fun part of being here on YLF since we can help each other figure it out together!!

Aww: thanks Gryffin! I dress in a slightly more toned down way when I travel though: no jewelry & a bit more classic than quirky. And sadly, my daily style, as seen on YLF, somehow seems to invite middle-aged men in cafes to say inappropriate things to/persistently stare at me. I don't know why, if it's because I look young so they assume I'll be vulnerable, but it happened fairly frequently when I had long hair (this would have been a few years ago now, so I was in my early to mid 20s vs late 20s like now), and I *hated* it. In fact, I stopped going to cafes for awhile because of it. I've always had a good glare & don't mess with me walk/body language, and it never happened in places other than cafes, so I don't know what on earth was the problem (other than the men, who were the obvious problem). Maybe since I was also reading or something else I let my guard down? Short hair seems to keep my safer though: as soon as I cut my hair again I stopped having problems. Creepy.

My horror at 'good girl/bad girl' dressing dichotomy is that it a) blames the victim (she was 'asking for it'), b) objectifies women, turning them into nothing more than sex objects if they dress a certain way, and thus c) reinforces rape culture. Really, I'm horrified by all sexism & misogyny, so it's not just the phrase 'good girl.'

ETA: I don't have any issue with women who prefer to cover more of their body when they dress or women who prefer to shore more of their body! It's with the phrase & philosophies behind it, not with the clothes themselves.

E - I see where you could object to that moniker. Needless to say, no judgement was intended, but it could be seen as such. Mia culpa. Perhaps ladylike, prim, modest are better descriptors but then if you flip that coin you might still be left with descriptors of other styles like sexy and bombshell that could imply judgement too. Perhaps these are the limits of language. I am fascinated that shorter hair was key in eliminating unwanted attention. I need to canvas my men friends and husband about this. Either way glad you've out figured what styles work and keep you safe !

E and some of the others -- I remember very well that feeling of wanting to dress so I wouldn't be bothered by men. I had a major phase like this in the 80s in NYC. I wore oversized dolman tops, coming down mid-thigh, with a midi skirt or leggings and booties. I had one bf when I moved there in 85, then it was all over and I wasted the next 3 years in a complete barren void of male attention! When I was in my 40s, after my marriage ended, I went through the exact opposite phase. I dressed in body-con clothes, and wore push-up bras. The effort yielded what I desired, male attention. A string of boyfriends, all younger males. One was even a model 21 year younger than me… yes it's true. It lasted about 6 months and trying to keep up with the partying ended up doing me in and aging me badly! LOL! I never thought this through intentionally, it came from within and I adjusted my attire intuitively. It's only here on YLF that I have come to associate words with fashion, it's always been emotion and intuition for me. To Deb's point, I only see this now, later. Loved that observation from you, Deb.

Gryffin -- thanks for this thread and your individual, beautifully written responses. You have so much human insight. In the middle ages they might have thought this kind of powerful knowledge qualified you as a witch.

No, I wasn't blaming you at all for using it! I was just explaining why I called it gross in my other post, since you asked. Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you; I just think it's a shame that the way I dress will impact my safety. But that's the world we live in. There are definitely limits on language, especially when it comes to sexuality and dressing and women. But then there would come a point where we wouldn't be able to talk about clothes, and that would be a shame! The YLF forum is so accepting & open that I don't think anyone here uses words like bombshell or prim in a judging way.

I do still get male attention with shorter hair but not from creepy older men (both of those adjectives are key, hehe: I'm not saying all older men are creepy!). It could also be that I'm a few years older, so perhaps I definitely look like I'm in my 20s now whereas before I was frequently mistaken for a teen or college student. Or that my previous experiences make me more guarded in cafes, less likely to smile at strangers, etc. So I'm not positive it's the hair. Thinking about it, I also wear a bit less makeup than I did then: I used to wear a bit of eyeliner & mascara whenever I left the house whereas nowadays I usually skip that. So perhaps shorter hair + less make up = less conventionally 'femme' and thus less interesting to certain types of men?

CocoLion, I cross posted with you, but I loved hearing about your experiences!

Some of the comments about discouraging male attention reminded me of experiences I had when I was younger. To my surprise, some days I got more attention from men when I dressed in an androgynous style, not necessarily in a bad way. I'm talking about Gap khaki pants, a man's beige shirt--somewhat oversized but tucked in and belted, sneakers, and shoulder-legnth hair. This wasn't a look I would consider "man-attracting." And these guys weren't creeps either, as far as I could tell. It happened more than once, and at times when I was with my adult son.

Not sure what it means, but I decided if I ever wanted to meet a nice, middle class man I would go hang out wearing a similar outfit.

Cocolion - I always like to quote that the romantic poets thought poems were "emotion recollected in tranquility" That when emotions ran high we were incapable or articulating or analyzing what we are feeling. But I think that's a good analogy to all of life. When we are in the midst of it, it's almost impossible to stand back dispassionately and see the whole picture analytically. I don't think it's just you and Deb, but all of us, that things only become clear when we have enough space, distance and calm to be able to figure them out. At the time we feel we react but it's hard to see ourselves clearly. Maybe we can only make the best decisions for ourselves at the time and hope in hindsight they will have been solid ones!! As to witch, you have me LOL!! I am a scorpio born on Halloween!! Unfortunately, I only wish I had such powers!! Aahhhhhhhhhh it would be nice!!
E - we could do a whole study on this! But I think the most important thing is that you seem very adept now about avoiding unwanted attention and getting attention from people from whom you would welcome it. That's a total coup IMHO!! "Creepy old men," so Lolita, no wonder you avoided cafes!! Awful. Glad that problem seems less pervasive! I am very fond of cafes!!
MsMaven - my husband loves men's wear on women. He likes women who are athletic, unfussy and natural. According to him, this reads down to earth, genuine, ie not trying too hard. Given the choice of a glammed up girl and one in chinos, he said he's pick the woman in chinos to talk to every time. FWIW, that was the male opinion!

Rachylou - so if I read you right, you would move to more tailored,
professional, angular pieces. Solids over prints, jackets over cardis.
that kind of thing. would that be right?

Interesting! I don't suppose in the '90s that's exactly what I did. Dressed like a girl-banker. These days, though, I just throw in a lot of quirky to spoil the soup. Lol.

Rachy - if clothes and style can't be personal and idiosyncratic, than what is the point!! I like quirky, I like unique, something a bit off kilter. May be I don't like to be pidgeon holed and I love interesting pieces on others, much more interesting!

But gryffin, if I may whinge, cliches makes things easy! Lol. 12-dozen red roses on Valentine's day, and you've done good. Period. So what if you're a zombie?

... hehe, and that's why I try to repel *charmers.*