I agree about joyless dressing; putting clothes on only to cover one's body. I don't think personal taste comes into things quite as much, since there are a LOT of styles that I don't like that I don't consider frumpy.

What has been alluded to but not said outright is the relation of weight and age to frump. I think that a woman carrying extra weight (myself included right now) needs to step it up a notch in order to NOT be considered frumpy. In other words, Janet Reno could have worn the exact same suit as Condoleezza Rice; which one would almost everyone have considered frumpy? Same clothes, different body, different perceptions of style or lack thereof. I don't LIKE it that things are that way, but it is undeniable to me that they are.

Since some recent medical issues, I am carrying more weight than is average for me, and I am doubting my style much more than I ever did. I can't put almost anything on and look "fine" anymore; I have to look nice now in order to look fine, if that makes any sense. Part of that is surely my own insecurity, but part of it plays a large part in how many people perceive frump, which is also part of the reason middle aged and older women are more often considered frumpy. A 20 year old woman can wear sweats and flip flops. She may be considered lazy or overly casual or lots of other things, but few people perceive that young woman as frumpy. Put 20 pounds and 20 years on her with the exact same outfit and suddenly she is frumptastic. So part of it definitely is age/body related.

Well everyone has made excellent points. Frump is in the eye of the beholder, but also very connected to who is wearing what and with which intent. I think ruling out entire stores or categories like corporate dress is part of the excess of youth. Zap if you are reading that is amazing about your daughter - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

When it comes to frumpy, I feel a bit like the Supreme Court on porn : I know it when I see it. LOL

I think that frumpy needs more than one item. So if one wore certain shoes with a certain sweater, that might be frumpy but maybe not one piece with more modern items. Maybe ?

Thank you Shevia, she is quite embarrased about it, actually. she wanted something more " brainy".

A great read! Thanks Peri for starting the thread. My frumpy-iest period consisted of one particular uniform: polo shirt, wool pleated high waisted pants purged from MIL closet, Blundstone black or brown work shoes. So, a combination of poor fitting, particularly cut items even though I was in my twenties and thin = frumptastic. Yeah for YLF and everything I have learned here

Echo, I agree, I think when you are plus-size it's "easier" to look frumpy in other people's eyes, and I think the same is probably the case once you get above a certain age.

The thing with 'dated' is that shapes and colors and silhouettes come back, and when you're younger or you have an arty style things can be ironically cool, whereas if the rest of your appearance doesn't suggest that, there are no clues to say to others whether you bought those pleated trousers last week or have had them in your closet since the 80s.

Thistle, I think there's a kernel of truth in what you say about office appropriateness, particularly in more conservative areas of the world. Teenagers are very sensitive about brands and shapes, often without knowing exactly how to explain what they see, because they haven't yet seen trends come and go for decades. I suspect most of us who have been around a bit longer are more - I'm not sure if tolerant is the right word, or what - ok with ambitiousness about silhouette and color.

I can totally echo what Echo said if you will 'scuse the awful pun!

As a plus size girl, I can say that I see loads of outfits that I reckon if I were thinner I could pull off - it looks intentional and styled, but the minute I put them on, I look frumpy and dull. I do think that age and size has loads to do with it.

I also think it is the eye of the beholder. I love my volume over volume look sometimes and I have a particular outfit that I love... my wide leg black pants with a hi lo, loose fitting striped top and ballet flats - I feel comfy, casually stylish and great and my happiness factor in that is high... well it was until DH said it looked like I was turning into my 73 year old mother. And my mother IMO is very frumpy. She always has been - no concept of wearing clothes to fit.

I think joyless is a good concept here, and a certain amount of unkempt. Certainly when I put on something that makes me feel frumpy, it is usually something that fits poorly, is not just unflattering but actively emphasizes parts of my body that I'd rather have fade into the background, appears to be dirty or worn out, looks cheap, or is dated. Conservative, classic, or professional sometimes get labelled as frumpy but I don't think they are the same thing.

When I worked in an office in my early 20s I was particularly bad at dressing. My "business" clothes appeared frumpy to me because of the unflattering fit and dated styles more than anything else. I generally went by the criteria that if I can get my body into it and it zips without problems, then it fits. Many of the clothes I wore then were hand me downs from my mother, who is a bit bigger and a whole lot shorter than me, so I was often seen in pants that were too short and too big with a shapeless untucked blouse. If you combine those with a perpetual bad hair day, you get frump. At the time I was quite severely depressed and thought I was too ugly to bother trying to look nice most of the time, so you can see where the joylessness comes in.

But I don't think that dated or unflattering is necessarily frumpy. I often see little old ladies around town wearing outfits that are a bit shapeless and dated but they I wouldn't call them frumpy because they are wearing impeccable suits or calf length skirts with matching jackets, coordinated accessories, nice shoes, and have fixed their hair and makeup. The styles of these items may be dated, and they are often made from materials like double knit polyester, but I wouldn't say the overall effect is frumpy.

There seems to be a consensus on here that fit and silhouette have an important role to play in frumpiness, or lack there of. For what it's worth, the things below are what I believe you have to be veeeeeeeeeery careful of as they can be frump tastic if not deployed with care:

- midi skirts. Especially when pleated and worn with flats. Alexa Chung only gets aways with it because she's a super skinny fashionista.

- beige. I.e. the shade of beige that the walls of most municipal buildings are painted in. It's hard to look stylish when you're the same colour as your wrokplace.

- baggy cardigans that end mid-thigh. Shapeless, looks like an item being worn for warmth only.

- shoes with a low (1"-1 1/2") block heel. The Guardian's fashion section says these are on trend for 2013. I, for one will not be partaking as they just scream, "sensible!"

- shoes that look orthopaedic, but aren't actually orthopaedic shoes. It is possible to buy comfortable shoes that look good. It may take a bit more work, but the results are definitely worth it.

- tapered polyester trousers in a plain colour. Just joyless and make your bum look bigger.

- pastels can be tricky on an older woman. The wrong shade can make you look washed out.

Pastels can be tricky on any woman. I wore them back when I was in my early 20s, and they washed me out something awful. You don't have to be older to look horrible in certain colors.

Oh, I completely agree, Ruth! I'm 29 and pastels are definitely not my friends

We can always all have our own definition of frumpy, but I definitely agree with joyless dressing.

Not to offend anyone, but in NYC there are sects of Orthodox Jews who wore what I always considered the height of frump: long, thick pleated dark wool skirts with blocky square wool blazers or heavy cardigans, button-down shirts, thick skin-toned stockings, and chunky oxfords. Then a short bob wig and a tam. This uniform - it really was like a schoolgirl uniform made for grownups - was worn by every woman summer and winter, at every age and in every body size. It was so unflattering *and was meant to be for modesty and religious reasons.*

To me, frumpy is shapeless, unflattering, and joyless. It is about ignoring or hiding the shape of the real body underneath the clothing, from shame (or modesty), not caring, or from disinterest in fit.

Is the Man Repeller frumpy? No, because she isn't joyless.

Is frumpy a judgement? Yes. But then, so is fab.