Very interesting, and as usual (HI GRYFFIN) I agree with what Gaylene and gryffin wrote. One thing that popped into my mind to answer your last question, Joy, is that unless you are into dressing with lots of crazy accessories and wild colours/patterns , I can't see that becoming a thing one adopts with age. I personally don't get the Advanced Style kooky dressing thing, because I'm not sure I understand the motivation behind it. But that's not the point , I know, and every woman can do whatever she wants . I wonder how much of the kooky Advanced Style look is a political/social statement?

One thing my friends and I often laugh about is how "wonderful" it would be to be one of those women who just don't care about what they l look like and what they wear. Must be so freeing. At 56, I like to think my days of trying to dress like a 30 year old are over. I appreciate different things now than I did even 10 years ago, and no longer care as much about what other people think of what I'm wearing. I think that comes with age, and no longer feeling the need to impress every person who looks at me. As others have said, I think functionality will become the most important factor in dressing as I/we age. Even now, I'm annoyed with having to bend over and fold myself in half doing up a buckle on the ankle of a sandal. Folding myself in half the other way to do up a zipper and button on the back of a top now seems to put me at risk of dislocating my shoulder. Same with putting on and taking off a pull-on sports bra. Those are the little details I'm noticing . Lastly , I shopped for my mother for years before she died, and was frustrated at how little choice there was for women of a certain age but with restricted mobility who did care about fashion and might like to have had more options than pastel poly pants, t-shirts and cardigans.

Sorry for carrying on - why did I turn this into all about me? Ugh.

Laurel -- I would be afraid of the 30 x 30 competition from your Grandmother.

This is a very interesting thing to think about. I think that maybe Baby Boomers have a really different take on and relationship with age. Because I think 'forever young' and 'don't trust anyone over 30' were mantras for this generation. I think plastic surgery and aerobics came from that zeitgeist. Makes me think of Mad Men and Don Draper... he was an Old Man at 30 because he was A Suit.

As a Gen-X'er, I had Al Gore talking about 'young adults' from like 15-40... which really irked my nerves, I have to say. There's a point where you are ready not to be discounted for your age, and it is way before 40. And 40 is way too old to start thinking about what you want to be when you grow up. That is a total waste of decades, to wait that long to get going.

I like to think about the Dark Ages. I'm thinking, then, when a young person called someone else 'old man', they were a 15-yr-old wrapped in rags, calling a toothless 40-yr-old wrapped in rags that. Just has an entirely different sense about it.

My mother is not gonna be like my grandma. My grandma was weird, lol. My grandma was from when people were more isolated, didn't travel as far and as often - and clothing was more regimented, not to mention. My grandma made up crazy things and expected everyone to follow her rules and believe her, without the slightest notion her 'facts' could be checked up on via Google on a smart phone. Pretty sure grandma didn't know about Google.

I'm 61 years old and I could dress like a "little old lady" if I wanted to....but I just can't see that happening as long as I have the ability to do so. If someone else is dressing me, and I am incapable of protesting, yeah, then maybe. However, "old lady" is a state of mind, In my opinion. I see women here who are HALF MY AGE dressing in ways that I consider "old lady" (ie stretch waist ill fitting poly pants; pastel floral polyester ill fitting tops; orthopedic looking shoes that match or blend with nothing; no accessories) Sorry if I have offended anyone with my descriptors of what I think of as "old lady"....additionally --absolutely not a care in the world for what is current or modern. Comfortable is NOT the definition of "old lady"--NOT CARING how one looks at all may be, and it has nothing to do with how old a lady is....

Thank you for starting the thread, Joy. I thought about doing it myself. I still haven't figured out what I want to be like when I'm old and gray, and now I'm gray and I turned 75 a few months ago.

I'll add more thoughts later, but I do know that I don't care much anymore about what people think about me or what I'm wearing. It isn't that I don't care anymore--I want to wear clothes that make me feel good--to please me instead of DH or my relatives. I do get frustrated with shopping because it is hard to find the kind of clothes I've always liked to wear--the quality available is appalling to me--and I have an especially difficult time finding shoes.

I worried about age-appropriate dressing a lot more when I first found YLF. In fact, it was Googling the topic that brought me here. I skimmed over most of your comments, so I want to reread them carefully. I keep putting off my "gray hair makeover."

This is a very interesting and, for me, timely topic. I had lunch this week with a dear friend. She's 71, I'm 54. She's definitely a person who is old only chronologically--she's very vibrant, vital, and engaged with life and with new ideas and experiences. We were sitting outside on some stairs in the shade, enjoying our post-lunch frozen yogurts, and I noticed we were basically wearing the same outfit from the waist down--very light-weight, slightly gearish pants and closed-toe slip-on flat shoes. The only difference is that instead of a sleeveless top like I was wearing, she had on a tee with 3/4 length sleeves. (Her only concision to aging in dress is that she's a bit uncomfortable showing skin.) She also has just had her hair cut into an extremely cute, stylish pixie that fits her face perfectly and would look as good on a 20 year old as it does on her. She's not super into fashion, but she always dresses and presents herself in a way that is casual yet modern and attractive and that fits with her personality and her lifestyle. Not "old lady" at all in any pejorative sense of the term.

Meanwhile, I have another dear friend who, exactly my age, who dresses in a stodgy, dowdy way that screams "old lady" to me. But, honestly, she's always been a little bit of an old lady at heart with older-skewing hobbies and no interest in keeping up to date with fashion or pop culture or technology, so maybe she's just being true to herself as well? (as much as her Eddie Bauer khakis paired with tucked in turtlenecks and clunky running shoes make me want to shed a quiet tear sometimes )

LisaP--I do think the Advanced Style look is somewhat of a political/social statement, a refusal to become invisible as the culture wants us post-menopausal women to be.

At age 55, I'm fighting OA and trying to stay in shape, while trying to dress both stylishly and comfortably. The older I get, the harder it gets, because the choices become more limited--especially for petites like me. I don't want to go around looking like I've given up, because I haven't and I won't. To me, that's what old lady dressing is--looking like you've given up. I don't want to convey that message. And yes, I have some younger relatives who dress and behave in a frumpy manner, like they're a lot older than they actually are. It's sad.

I
don't get the Advanced Style dressing thing either, but maybe I would if I saw how these ladies dressed earlier in their lives?

Sterling---my grandmother has a TINY wardrobe, and she hasn't been in a proper store for ... probably 25 years? And yet--she is SO CURRENT! All of a sudden, when I show up she'll have unearthed a very thin, silk, black tie and have it tied around her neck "just so" and on her way to Happy Hour at "the Home" as if she just walked out of a photo shoot! She cuts her beautiful silver hair herself, and somehow manages without a mirror and a dull pair of scissors to create a choppy bob. Her skin is really a marvel though---she was FIERCE about avoiding sun (how I cringed as a child when she would force a BONNET (yes, a BONNET, like Holly Hobbie wore)) by utilizing a parasol, and then coating her face with Vaseline at night (I know, I know... but you should see her face!).

I wish you could all come shopping with me when I shop with my my 70 and 80 plus clients. I bet it would be VERY inspirational to you. Nothing like Advanced Style or the red carpet. It's down to earth and authentic. Wonderful women caring about their appearance, being thankful for who they are and what they have, and having fun with fashion. No body image challenges either. It's sublime.

My mother is 94 and dresses very much as she always has. She keeps her clothes forever and hasn't bought anything new in years. She actually looks many years younger than her actual age. At 59 I find myself dressing much as I always have too. I try to stay in shape, (although exercise for me is mostly about mental health) which has meant that I haven't had to undergo any major style shift. I imagine that I may make some concessions when it comes to footwear as I age. At this point I still enjoy heels but I can imagine that could change as I enter my sixties. When I think about the idea of "dressing like an old lady" I'm not sure what it means any more. It used to mean a kind of dowdy lack of style and I suppose it still does but with so many women defying that convention, the phrase seems less meaningful now.

OK, I was ready to bow out of this thread until I overheard this scenario just short time ago. I was returning a top at Aritzia (a local chain similar to Zara, for the non-Canadians) and witnessed the following exchange:

Young 20-Something to Older Woman (probably her mother?)
"You look like h*|| in your clothes; you'd look so better if you just tried harder! "
Older woman looking dubiously at cropped pants and skinny, cold-shoulder top:
"Well,..."

I frankly couldn't stand to watch what was going to happen next so I grabbed my refund and left. Even if that women was coerced into buying the outfit, it was such a departure from her khakis, tucked-in shirt, and sensible shoes, it was a stretch to imagine she'd ever walk out the door in it. I know because I was guilty of doing the makeover bit with my mum, and, more recently, have had that zeal turned on me by a well-meaning, younger relative. It wasn't until those tables were turned that I started to question exactly why I had been so bothered as a young woman when I saw older women moving away from current fashion--"giving up" as I defined it. I felt comfortable, modern, and happy in my style, so why did my younger relative want me to adopt a style which she preferred over one which I saw as mine. It made me start thinking about how my sense of how fashion fits into my life has morphed over the last few years.

If harried mothers are given latitude when they wear pj's under their coats for a school run, or yoga gear when they stop by the grocery store for a container of milk, why does an elderly woman get such a hard time when she chooses comfortable clothes after a grueling chemo session? I know, as a younger woman, I never stopped to consider if those "old lady" outfits I labeled as "giving up" were more about trying to do as best as one can under the circumstances. Chronic illnesses and physical ailments aren't always visible to the casual observer, but they are a reality which many of us have to cope with by the time we hit our later decades. Choosing comfortable footwear keeps me moving, which, in turn keeps me feeling good about myself. Same goes for flexible waistbands and non-constricting clothing. Suffering for fashion seems ludicrous; these days, I've plenty of other ways to experience discomfort, thank you. I do the best I can to keep up with fashion, but, now that I'm in moving into the final stage of my life, I'd rather just throw something on and get going, instead of obsessing about what I'm wearing.

When my ever-so-meticulous and stylish mother was in the latter stages of Parkinson's, with her eyesight failing and her hands shaking, she still tried to put on lipstick for a doctor's visit. I adored the young locum who, on seeing her in her stained shirt and wobbly lipstick, immediately said "You look lovely today, Diane!" Her smile went megawatt. She hadn't "given up", and I suspect neither will I, although it might take a discerning eye like that young doctor's to tell the difference.

Now that I've witnessed how hard women try to maintain their dignity and sense of self as they age, I wish I'd been kinder in my youthful critiques about "old lady" style. I'd like to give my former self a good, swift kick for having the audacity to pronounce judgement on something beyond my experience. My mother didn't need her makeover, but I sure did.

Oh, Gaylene, your response touched me in a tender spot--my mother is in the late stage of Parkinson's also, and has coped with severe arthritis since her 20s. She, too, has always looked pulled-together and fashionable on her own exacting terms--until the last few months. At my most recent visit, I found that she no longer cared to choose her clothes, happy to let me dress her as comfortably as I could. This world simply has less and less hold on her. And one needn't be at the end of life to feel less invested in the latest fashion and less tolerant of uncomfortable, restrictive clothing designed for younger bodies. Your final paragraph expresses something I've thought about a lot: so important not to judge, as we would not want to be judged, women who, far from "giving up", are doing their best to be, in Angie's words, "down to earth and authentic".

I hope I can still dress stylishly while battling chronic pain. The bursitis in my right knee and the tendinitis in my left ankle have flared up today, making me feel 100 years old, even though I had a great cardio on the bike a couple of days ago that didn't bother my legs in the least. Up and down it goes, with good days and bad, but I don't wear elastic-waisted pants and pullover short-sleeved, crewneck knit tops and white walking shoes. To me, wearing that stuff would be giving up, and I'm not there yet. My older sister has Parkinson's, but she still takes care of her appearance and looks nice at age 70-something. We can all be down to earth and authentic, or flamboyant, if we choose. We don't have to look like something the cat dragged in (my mother's expression).

Yes, Gaylene. Your story touched me. That is part of the growing pain of youth - and the burden of age, watching younger people do and say and think painful things that will embarrass them later...

Their time will come.

Gaylene, if I could give you a standing ovation that you could see here, I would. Amen to everything you said. I remember my mum taking out my grandmum in a new outfit. In my young head, I was trying to figure out why it mattered when it was polyester pants with an elastic waistband and a drapey top and she was in a wheelchair. My judgement, which I never voiced because I was raised better than that, brings tears to my eyes now. My grandmum had rheumatoid arthritis and had likely not been outside of her own home in months. Being in a wheelchair in a mall and going out to eat was like a coming out party. How dare I judge something I had no experience with?

As for younger women trying to get older women to dress in a younger style, I have to blame the mum. My DD jokes about trying to get me to wear colour, but as for criticizing my style choices, she wouldn't dare. And not only that, but she would not WANT me to dress like she does. She and I both know that it would be inappropriate, and she doesn't even dress in a revealing way. I have told her from the time she was very young and trying on clothes that things either looked amazing on her or weren't fab enough for her, and she takes the same approach. It is never me or her who is the problem; it is always the clothes (THANKS, ANGIE!), and I treat her with respect and she treats me with respect. She will sometimes hold something up and say, "Say, mom, I think you would look so nice in this. What do you think?" And if my answer is that it isn't "me", then she lets it go. IMO, a young woman would never be treating her mum disrespectfully unless she had been treated similarly by her mum. While many dispute it, more often than not we grow up to be our own mothers. If we don't like how our daughters behave or treat us, perhaps we ought to look at ourselves.

As for the real topic at hand, dressing like an "old lady", I think that is cultural. In other words, there is no universal "old lady" style. It all has to do with what we view as old fashioned or out of style. My own mum looks at some clothing and remarks about how "old fashioned" it is because she remembers when it was popular either when she was younger or when her own mum wore it (like peep-toe shoes, which she disparagingly calls "SO 1940's). Those things seem completely current to me because I don't have the same style experience she does, and we are both right. Her version of "old lady" is different from my version of "old lady", and both will be different from my daughter's version of "old lady." And none of us will ever willingly choose the things we view as outdated. There is never a universal "old lady" style.

We can change so our shoes are more comfortable, to elastic waists when we are unable to fasten other things or to drapey tops when getting something over our heads becomes painful, but hopefully none of us will ever look at clothes we view as outdated or "old lady" and choose them. And on top of that, perhaps we should not look at others and judge their style as "old lady", either, because their parameters are likely much different from our own. All of them are arbitrary, and one's judgement about what counts as "old lady" is no more valid than the next's.

Such utterly thoughtful and intelligent conversation . Thank you again , Gaylene and Echo.

A very interesting conversation going here. No old lady thinking or dressing on this forum. ETA That is one of the reasons I am on it. And I suspect that is true of most all the members here.

Gaylene, your last post nails it all!! is the 'old lady' look just a state of our own minds and not the state of the person we are viewing?

Think you've nailed it there Deb. Even Joy asking in her original post if the shoes looked "old lady" : Joy was that you having a fear in your own mind of not looking current or that you have given up? Which is why I asked, only half joking, when it would be OK to be one. Not to put too fine a point on it, but really at age 70 you probably are an old lady just as I am halfway from middle age to old age at age 56. I am not sure what age 56 is classified at, probably at least late middle age, if there is such a thing. And I am trying to embrace it. It can hurt at times, that I may be seen as older than I am because I have chosen to let my hair naturally grey and not have any enhancing procedures done. But those are, as Angie says, my choice to have or not have. ( Although I do question, in such a youth obsessed society, how much "choice" there is if you decide you are worried about looking your age or older.) I am making that choice for authenticity and it is a somewhat brave choice. Not that those of you who choose the opposite are not brave, you just may need to be brave about something else in life. And is being an old lady so bad, really? The alternative is being dead, is it not? And the 90 year old I showed in my photo only gave up on her appearance when she had no real choice as her health faded. I would like, I think, to model myself on her and dress for my own enjoyment until either I cannot or I decide something else in life is more important- which could happen.

Thanks, as well, to Echo and Gaylene. As I have aged, I have looked at the judgments I made as a young woman, with regret. And I have often been curious about why so many mothers and daughters seem to accept ruthless comments from each other about clothing.

Maybe I'm feeling a bit bigger-picture this morning, but now this discussion has me wondering why we even have the mindset that it's a bad thing when people "give up" regarding their style or dressing. What if people (even before age or poor health or limited mobility "requires" it) simply don't care about fashion or trends and have other things that are important to them. Maybe they dress in clean clothes that are appropriate to their life and call it a day. Why is that "giving up"?

There is much wisdom in this thread. I have found that getting older has given me a better sense of self acceptance. I don't compare myself to others as much as I did in my youth, and I am more grateful for my good health, something that I took for granted when younger.

My late mother suffered disability in her later years after having a stroke and she made the most of what opportunities life gave her in that new phase of her life. She made many new friends at her nursing home and still enjoyed her life (and fashion), but just in a different and more pragmatic way. I never thought of her as an "old lady" because she was a vibrant and fun person who just happened to be 76 years old.

Back again, because I also seem to recall there was a time / culture when you'd just put on your black dress and that was that. You never wore anything else ever again. You'd get your first pair of heels at 15 and you'd get your black dress at 40. And I remember people being mad that they had to 'hang it up' at 40. And no one thinks it's ok for a 15 year old to get married anymore in the western world... but you know I had a boss who married at that age; he and his wife were on their 25th anniversary at 40. Weird to me, but obviously solid. They had three kids.

Married at 15. Yikes!!!

My mom, born in 1918, thought black was only for funerals. I think I got my love for color from her.

Thank you all, what a beautiful and insightful thread. So bottom line - perhaps we must always keep in mind, not just in fashion but in life, we are all doing "the best we can." The choices we make reflect finance, age, innate preferences, culture norms, illness, sometimes eye sight etc. The only important thing is that we hope we feel like our best and most comfortable selves at every age no matter what our sartorial choices. If we achieve that then we've really succeeded at life. We just need to keep in my we all succeed differently and we have different criteria and measures of success. When we embrace that diversity then we can appreciate everyones' unique beauty.

My sister doesn't care a whit about fashion, and pretty much never has. I almost always see her in hiking boots (oh, I hope she's replaced once or twice over the years, but I'm not sure). Imagine my surprise when she picked out a beaded and detailed wedding dress (20 years ago). She looked amazing. She paired it with slip on keds. See - she was just ahead of the sneakers with dress trend. Now we have a big family event coming up and I don't know if she will dress up at all or pull something very dated out of her closet, which is small and limited for selection.

She just doesn't like the whole concept of shopping or figuring out the perfect outfit for each occasion, and she doesn't plan to change now. Although I would enjoy having common ground to spend time with her in this arena, I accept this is not the case. I can acknowledge she has spent way less time and money to this part of her life, and its easy to argue there is something positive in that.

I think there are (at least) two things that can look like "giving up" to the rest of the world. One, as many of you have expressed so beautifully, is just doing the best you can within your physical limitations.

The other is actually giving up, because you're afraid "now that I'm X years old" to be seen as actually still wanting to be beautiful. I live in an area with a lot of Chinese immigrants, and I see them shift, somewhere in their 40s, to mannish haircuts and colorless, shapeless clothes. A Chinese friend told me that back home they'd be ridiculed if they didn't, "at their age".

The shift may be later and more gradual with native-born Americans, but we still do have (and fear) that expression, "mutton dressed as lamb." I know when I'm considering a purchase I often do ask myself, "but how will it look with a lined face?"

Another interesting perspective Laura! How much societal pressure does affect us. It seems Westerners then have 2 opposing fears. One is looking "too young" as in your nearby immigrants and as per the "mutton dressed as lamb" phrase. But the other is looking "too old" as per the need for hair dye, Botox, face lifts, lip plumping etc etc. And the latter pressures, while not skipping men altogether, certainly appear to affect women disproportionately. I feel this is a feminist question. Could be another whole thread. I feel I would be likely to offend should I go there however. I have been hurt by comments where I am guessed to be older than I am, but I feel the hurt is because I am also subject to the societal pressure to "look young". Therefore I feel the hurt but "shake it off" ( thank you Taylor Swift).

In the early 1960s, when I was a little girl, I often noticed little old ladies all dressed in black, in the streets. I was surprised, because I seldom saw any black clothes in the shops. So I asked my mother: "Where do all the old ladies get their clothes?" And she answered me: "I think they have inherited their clothes from their mothers and other old relatives." So I always imagined the little old ladies living in appartments filled with old black clothes which were passed on from generation to generation ...

Now, for decades, I have seldom seen any old ladies wearing all black. Quite the contrary. Black clothes have since long been a sort of uniform to the younger generations, while many old ladies seem to enjoy wearing colours and prints.