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Vaccinations and autism?

Raisin

Veteran

I will start by saying that I know VERY little on the connection or lack of connection between autism and childhood vaccinations. That said, my 1 year old got his MMR shot 2 weeks ago and he had a mild reaction to it. He got a rash over his chest and back about 2 days later, and was fairly irritable for 4-5 days. Now he's due to go back and get another needle today, I'm not sure which one but not MMR again.

Now I'm not saying there is a connection between MMR and autism because frankly, I know very little about it. But if there were, would it be prudent of me to hold off on other vaccinations or is it just MMR that is the worry? He is feeling better but he does still have a slight rash, so obviously not all the reaction is gone.

Autism is always something that's scared me because you just never know and you really have no control over it. I've also read that it could be a lack of vitamin D in conjunction with a vaccine shot. So I was considering holding off other shots and giving him some vitamin D for a few months first.

My oldest son has had all his vaccines and never even the smallest reaction. My youngest is very healthy and by all accounts he progressing as he should. So what's a mother to do?

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39 replies

Latest reply was from Rambling Ann

Anonymous

Both my kids had rashes from MMR and both seem to be just fine. That autism/vaccination link has been pretty soundly debunked recently, in my opinion. I'll see if I can find the articles I read.

Mochi

Veteran

What Ceit said. I think it's normal for there to be a reaction. In fact, in homeopathy it's believed that the stronger the reaction to a vaccine, the healthier the person's constitution, if you want to go by that.

Raisin

Veteran

Thanks for the replies! I don't know why, but it's sort of a deep-seeded worry of mine, especially since boys are more prone to Autism, so they say. But I think you're right, probably tons of kids have reactions to the vaccine regardless.

Well I have a super careful doctor anyway, so he might feel like we should wait on this next vaccine until he's totally cleared up, because he just like to be careful about everything. Usually I find in a bit annoying! Now I feel bad, since 2 weeks ago when he told me I'd have to come back for him to get the other shot since both were "new" to his system, and I was like, oh c'mon just do it now! Lol, but that's partly due to the fact that my older one seems to be invincible. He's only just had his first fever over this winter, and he's 6, so I guess I fell like, nah, my kids don't get sick. Well my doctor was right!

Anonymous

I am no medical proffesional but I am pretty sure the connection between vaccination and autism has been debunked.

Raisin

Veteran

I have read about how it is supposedly debunked, but have also read things that say the theories have been replicated in other studies! So it's hard to choose one side or the other.

Interestingly I found this article which talks about a recent case in Italy where a family was awarded money, and it was ruled that MMR caused the child's Autism. I don't know on what scientific grounds they ruled that on, and it's also interesting to note that the article claims this news was "blacked out" from US media.

http://www.collective-evolutio.....sm-us-medi

I'm not sure there is any evidence that any vaccinations CAUSE autism, but I'm also not sure that they don't play any part in it. I think it's a larger more complex case of genetics + environment. I think rarely is anything as complex as this explained by simple "cause and effect".

Aziraphale

Veteran

Hi Raisin,

Keep in mind that you can read anything on the internet. If 80% of what you read says one thing, the volume of those comments does not make them true. People can convince themselves of very weird things, and be very vocal/write a lot about it.

Vaccines do not cause autism. The one big study that reported a link did end up being debunked, and 12 of the 13 scientists involved distanced themselves from the 13th one. The study had extreme bias. I don't have time to find the link now, but at the time my kids needed their vaccinations, it was a hot topic.

Sometimes vaccinations do cause skin reactions, though, and mild fever. They can certainly make a child irritable for a few days.

Vaccines save lives -- not just the lives of the children being vaccinated, but of others. There have recently been a number of deaths of newborns from measles -- the kind we vaccinate against. This is because the babies are too young to be vaccinated, and they catch measles from unvaccinated children who are spreading the disease. How would you feel if your newborn died of an infection that we can prevent, simply because there is a resurgence of that infection due to a huge number of parents refusing to participate in the vaccination program?

Something to think about.

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

Vaccines also kill- read the pamphlet from the company that makes the vaccine. Death is a possible side effect of most vaccines. Every one of us has to make the choice for ourselves and our families. My son had a vaccine reaction when he was a few months old, and he is on the Autism spectrum. His was to Pertussis, not the MMR. There is a lot of information on both sides of the argument, but there are also a lot of other risks involved with vaccinations that you need to weigh. I always believe in trusting my gut. If your son had a vaccine reaction, then he is sensitive. There is the possibility of not only other reactions to other vaccinations, but also of developing other allergies later on. The idea of herd protection should not even come into play with your personal decision about your child. Your one child getting or not getting a vaccine isn't going to do anything to the society at large, so don't let anyone bully you into doing something that you feel might harm your child for the greater good.

Raisin

Veteran

Aziraphale thank you for your response but I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that I think my child should not get the MMR vaccine. In fact that is exactly what he had 2 weeks ago. I am wondering however if now that he has obviously had a reaction to it if I should put off getting the follow up vaccine, since he is still sporting the rash.

I am all for vaccinations but I'm also not completely convinced that all those moms out there that clearly feel something happened to their child after receiving MMR are crazy. I do however feel that it's probably more complex than just MMR causes autism.

But since my child HAS has a reaction I feel I should be a diligent mother and make sure he doesn't have another one right on top of it.

Raisin

Veteran

Chewyspaghetti thanks for your response, I think you got what I mean. Sorry to hear that your son had a reaction and is now on the spectrum. Do you feel that was part of the cause?

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

Well, I don't think it was a good thing for him. My personal belief is that a myriad of factors all have to line up to produce Autism (and my son is so high functioning that he doesn't even have a label anymore). I think that's why they haven't found the "cause" yet- it's a genetic disposition paired with other risk factors that may culminate with an event. Anyhow, it doesn't even really matter how it came about- he already had it, I just focused on getting him to function as well as possible- which really worked out for us.

RoseandJoan

Veteran

I can only speak from personal experience, DD had the MMR at 18 months and the 2nd MMR in her pre school year and also has a formal diagnosis of autism, however, she was showing autistic traits long before the vaccine but not to a degree that I was overly concerned.

If your son is still feeling unwell from the first vaccine I would not hesitate to delay the follow up appointment. I personally would wish for my child to be in the best possible health before the procedure.

rachylou

Veteran

I think... I think I would not go on anything based on Italian court rulings. Remember that town in Italy that suffered an earthquake awhile back? The Italian legal system found six scientists guilty of manslaughter for not predicting the earthquake and gave each 6 years in jail.

As for holding off, you should check that doing so wouldn't weaken the effect / mean having to basically start the vaccination process over.

Isabel

Veteran

I agree with RandJ completely. My son is also on the Spectrum ( what used to be called Asperbergers ). I don't believe that vaccines had anything to do with it and there is a lot of science proving that. The fact that autism overwhelmingly occurs in boys, points to a number of factors. It was obvious to me that my son wasn't even trying to make eye contact as a baby.

I couldn't agree more with R&J. Take all that out of the picture and what you have is a child who is not feeling well. I would also feel uncomfortable adding another stress to his immune system right now : the shot. He really should recover from the first, IMO. Unless they are timed and HAVE to be done within a certain time period to be effective. Check with the doctor first.

(Personally, I believe that vaccines are important to avoid massive diease breakouts like in the old days when thousands of people would die at a time. We see what happens in places where there are no vaccines. However, if your child is having reactions to them, then I think that you and your pediatrician should think about it and re-group . )

Glory

Veteran

I believe that the link with vaccines and autism has been proven completely false and that those links were never based on scientific evidence.
Many children have reactions to the vaccines - some more than others. One of my children suffered so much, for about one week, whereas the other 2 had no ill effects.
You should photo the rash, and talk to the doctor. It might be something in the formulation which he is reacting to. It could also be he is just sensitive.

Gaylene

Veteran

Reactions to vaccinations are not uncommon. I'd suggest talking to your pediatrician if you are worried about a possible connection to autism or if delaying the next injection is a good idea. The scholarly journals are unanimous in de-bunking the connection, but the Internet is always circulating opinions that are based on personal assumptions and dodgy science. It's no wonder that parents get worried about whether or not they are making the right decisions for their children.

Measles, mumps, rubella, and pertussis can be life-threatening diseases for young children and I, for one, am extremely grateful that these diseases have become rare enough to give some people the luxury of forgoing vaccinations without having to deal with any consequences. That situation, however, may be changing. A recent resurgence of pertussis in our area resulted in a couple of newborns contracting the disease; the disease was horrible for both infants, with one of them ultimately dying from the disease. It was a tragic loss that didn't need to have happened.

Isis

Veteran

Andrew Wakefield, the doctor that started the idea that MMR is associated with autism has been debarred and his research declared fraudulent. Despite what you read on the internet, I have yet to see a single credible study supporting his theory.

Wikipedia has a great summary of the case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

For rubella, one of the biggest dangers of rubella is not to the infected child, but to pregnant moms that are exposed. Huge incidence of stillborn deaths and congenital blindness and deafness in pregnancies that survive.

Your doctor sounds prudent; I would ask him/her about whether delaying vaccination after a bad reaction. I would also seek his/her advice about supplementing with Vitamin D, especially since this is a fat-soluble vitamin.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Sorry, Raisin, I must have read your original comment too quickly. I agree that if he still has a bit of a rash, just hold off. Do the vaccination later. I'd err on the side of caution anyway and make sure each dose is well spaced out from the previous one. Actually, my daughter ended up way off schedule with her vaccinations because we moved from California back to BC Canada when she was two, and I got all mixed up about what was to be done when and frankly kind of forgot about it because we were so busy for that first year back home. So some of her booster shots were done quite late -- like, a year late -- and it was not a problem.

But do read what Isis said above. Read the article she linked to. She is correct in that the research was declared fraudulent. It is very, very unlikely that vaccinations trigger autism. The reality is that autistic behaviours often turn up in children right about when they are due for their booster shots. Correlation does not equal causation.

Also, both my kids have had rashes and short-lived fevers from their shots. There was no further problem. If you are concerned about the fact that your son still has a rash, maybe it would be prudent to discuss it with your family doctor? I'm sure he/she will be able to advise you.

Chewyspaghetti: what you say is true. There is a small risk of a massive reaction leading to death with most vaccines. But the risk is incredibly tiny. There is a small but real risk of death when you get in an airplane, too, but that doesn't stop most people from taking vacations in Hawaii.

Anonymous

Side note to Gaylene, we are having the same problem here. There is a huge ongoing campaign.
http://news.yahoo.com/whooping.....00661.html

RoseandJoan

Veteran

Same in the UK with both measles and whooping cough, there needs to be a 90% take up rate to offer mass protection and at present the rate is closer to 80% in some areas.

Blanket statement not aimed at the forum
I think this generation of Mum's have not experienced an epidemic of these childhood diseases and therefore a significant proportion downplay the implications of not immunising their child.

Thistle

Veteran

On a side note to Gaylene and Zap, Pertussis is huge issue here, too: http://www.jsonline.com/featur.....95asl7-150

You have already gotten tons of good information on vaccinations. Vaccines do not cause autism. I really would listen to your doctor and your mother's instinct. They go to school for a long time to know what's best. And your own instincts have been honed by nature for a long, long time

If you think you should hold off a bit, and so does your doctor, that should be totally fine.Most vaccines if they are delayed a week or two won't really matter to efficacy.

Raisin

Veteran

Thank you all for the responses. The truth is, it makes me feel better to know that a small reaction does happen fairly often. While I do believe that the original research linking the 2 was truly bad research, I still have a hard time just ignoring all of the "gut feelings" that so many mothers of children with Autism have. However, I do feel it is as Chewyspagetti put it, "it's a genetic disposition paired with other risk factors that may culminate with an event." And I am sure there are many routes to the outcome of Autism. I don't think we have a clear idea on the contributing factors to this yet.

So onto the update. DS saw the doctor today and he said he feels it's a fairly mild reaction he had to the vaccine. He does not feel there is any risk in him getting any further vaccines, but if I'm worried about him having a reaction when he is due for the 18 month MMR then he would allow me to get it done at the hospital under the care of a Paediatrician. I guess that would just be in case he had a more severe reaction next time, and if it were to happen immediately. I don't think he would, but I guess we'll decide what to do when that time rolls around. For today, he did indeed have his other vaccine, as the doctor felt it was fine and there was no additional risk with this vaccine, despite him still having a slight rash from the last one. So he was jabbed, and he's feeling good now, hopefully nothing else crops up over the next few days!

ETA - Pertussis has been back in full force over the winter here too. Thankfully DS was not around too many children while I was home, and he has had his shot now. I was scared that his older brother could have brought it home from school though.

RoseandJoan

Veteran

If the triple MMR vaccine is concerning you would having the single vaccines be an option when the time arises?

Raisin

Veteran

He did not mention the singles as being an option, but I could probably ask when it get's nearer to his vaccine time. I guess in the meantime I should do some reading and see if that is a better plan for kids that have already had a small reaction. I'm wondering if it works like food allergies, and sometimes the first reaction is mild, but subsequent reactions can be more severe?

Sara L.

Veteran

Speaking of pertussis...I had it last summer. I'm pretty sure I got it from a kid in my son's preschool that wasn't vaccinated. My son didn't get it because he's had all his vaccinations. I didn't realize my last vaccination had been so long ago and my doctor assumed they had given me a booster in the hospital when my son was born, as that's apparently standard practice. Luckily, pertussis is much less serious for healthy adults than it is for children. I just had a cough that lasted for weeks, even after taking the prescribed antibiotics. Needless to say, my pertussis vaccination has been updated.

Raisin - I hope your son does ok with his booster shot. My kids never got rashes but were usually unusually sleepy and lethargic after getting their vaccinations.

Raisin

Veteran

I forgot to mention my doctor did echo what someone said above, that he sort of feels like a small reaction is a good thing, in that it actively makes the body immune to the disease.

Echo

Veteran

My mom still remembers the polio outbreaks during the summer when she was a child. It is easy to forget that polio paralyzed or even killed so many children such a short time ago - all the way through the 1950's and there continued to be outbreaks into the '70's.

My DS2 was in the NICU for a while and there was a baby in the NICU with pertussis (whooping cough). That alone was enough to scare the bejeebers out of most parents.

My point is that there are diseases like polio that are completely eradicated (in the US, at least) and most other childhood diseases are so rare now that it is easy to forget the risk the diseases pose. The reason they are eradicated or rare is because of vaccines. I think there would be far fewer people questioning the risks versus the benefits if we all feared polio season again.

Almost without exception, doctors support vaccination. There is a reason for that, and it is because they see the results of NOT vaccinating and they know what the research indicates. The ruling of a court is based on the judgement of laypeople and not physicians and doesn't hold a candle to the studies proving time and again that there is no link between vaccinations and autism.

If your dr. is comfortable with it, I wouldn't hesitate to slightly alter the schedule, though, if your DS has had a reaction. I think that's reasonable. Make sure he is completely healthy and feeling well before he receives another shot. But please don't let this deter you from further vaccinations when it is appropriate.

Adelfa

Veteran

Raisin, I won't say more about the autism connection because it seems like that's been treated thoroughly. I will say that DD1 had no reaction to her shots but DD2 did. She ran a fever, her little thigh swelled up to twice its normal size, and she screamed for hours. It broke my heart. And it happened every time. It was really hard to have something done to her that made her suffer like that. I hated it. So I feel for you having just watched your son have trouble. It's really hard.

ramya

Veteran

I am no where knowledgable or experienced... But what I remember from my pre med classes(Yes, I was preparing for a career in medicine.. only to complete it and join engineering instead). I thought autism was genetic...

So technically medicine can't change it... (Vaccination is considered to be medicine). Now if a child already "had" the genes, may be it can enhance it... If you get what I mean here

Also reactions to vaccination is normal... You build the antibody by your immune system reacting to the vaccination and your body remembering, "Aha this is how we do it"...

I know as a mom it's hard for you to see your child suffer.. But I guess it's there with a purpose

rachylou

Veteran

It's interesting about "genetic diseases." I'm type 1 diabetic and that's "genetic." But, I learned, only something like 10% of type 1 diabetics have any family history of it. "Genetic" usually carries certain connotations of determinism, heritability, and internality - i.e. of being hardwired - even amongst doctors and scientists, who will yell at you for having children if you have a "genetic disease."

But so-called genetic diseases don't, obviously, work like that necessarily. To manifest, they indeed may require an external trigger or stressor - or a combination of them. Like a pathogen - which you do receive through vaccinations. Having "a vulnerable gene" is not enough for manifestation, and that's a very important point. Medicines can change things.

However, the likelihood of any of the routine vaccinations we have being the cause of diseases like type 1 diabetes and autism is, I should think, rapidly approaching zero. No doubt the triggers are something yet to be identified in any way.

Put it another way, things working at the genetic level is different than being "genetic."

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