IMO, without restricting media, the messages encountered by kids every day can be overwhelming. The number of times kids encounter billboards, print media and other unavoidable messages is huge, and to add movies and telly to the mix makes it an almost insurmountable mountain of propaganda to overcome. I don't believe in completely sheltering a child, but studies prove that NO media is best for young children. After that point, I believe in introducing things in a limited manner in amounts that actually allow a person to discuss it. Too many times, parents intend to talk about something, but first they want to see/hear what happens on the show so they hush the child and her questions until commercial time, when both of them have moved past the question anyway.

Even parents who allow no television or radio at all find that their children are aware of gender biases and expectations before the age of two. If the messages are so strong that they get through even WITHOUT the television, I can only imagine what gets through with it.

I am not saying what I believe is right for everyone, nor am I saying that allowing children freer access to media than I do is "bad". I'm just saying that I don't think that any mere human can overcome the media messages seen and heard everyday by their children if they allow unlimited telly and radio - especially in the early years when children are so impressionable and don't ask as many questions. I am nowhere near a perfect parent, and I could probably learn many lessons from the wise women here in that department; I just feel strongly about television (even though my kids are old enough that we allow some now).

What fascinating contributions by everyone. Thank You.

Biscuit's mom, you broke my heart tonight. How could you say that about yourself ? It makes me so sad. I have never seen you and I KNOW that you are beautiful...I KNOW it.

Mochi, your story also made me so sad. I just don't understand this thinking. Then, now, in between.

Eccho, I have to agree with restricting certain things. I believe it because some kids are just not emotionally and developmentally ready for explanations. It is also really to discuss objectification to a 7 year old. But mostly I believe it because the marketing and advertising industry spend 100s of millions of dollars studying psychology and techniques to invade our brain. If stores are set up in ways that make us buy. It is all about subtle manipulation. And like the old saying goes, sex sells. That is why beautiful women in teeny weeny bikinis are used to sell cars. Paco Underhill, the godfather of the modern mall layout and store entries, is an expert on creating a "mood and atmosphere" that will get people to buy.

Rabbit, yes ! How true. That reminded me of something I read years ago regarding the show Friends. And it was how we thought it made sense that someone without a job, a cocktail waitress and someone with a job as an assistant at a store, somehow could afford a big apartment with 2 bedrooms in one of the best parts of NYC. Yes, why is it that the average man is portrayed as average but the woman is always exceptionally beautiful ?

Rachy, the shark set. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately. : (

I would think that the person at the end of that comment would feel a deep wound, a profound attack. I would. And then to not have the person who said it realize how deeply that affects someone psychologically makes me uncertain that one wouldn't realize the effect on some level.

Don't get me started. I can't stand it either, as Una, said when will it end?
That's one of the reasons YLF is so important, we all need safe places.

Wow. Just wow.

What's really upsetting is when you catch women doing this to other women. I even catch myself doing it to myself! Several months ago, I was thinking to myself that I always feel like I look so much less attractive than the women I see around when I'm running errands, etc. They always look so bright-eyed and healthy and lively, while I feel like I look drawn and pale and unhealthy. Well, it finally dawned on me one day: They wear makeup, and I don't! (Well, I'll wear it for a special occasion, but I certainly don't wear it everyday.) And that makeup makes a HUGE difference! It's really interesting if you go online and google "celebrities without makeup," because you will see that many of them are very ordinary looking, and in fact some are unrecognizable without their makeup.

I also caught myself doing something like this when browsing the BR site some months back. There was a big splash screen with a man and a woman. I was looking at the man and thought, "Wow, he looks so fake, so made-up. His hair is just so, and his scruffy beard is trimmed just so—nobody's hair looks like that!" Then I looked at the woman and thought, almost dismissively, "Oh, she looks normal." I stopped in horror and thought, "My goodness, this woman was probably sitting in the makeup chair for hours getting her skin to look flawless, and some big-name hairdresser was certainly called in to get her tresses to shine and be wavy in all the right directions. And then she was probably photoshopped on top of that. And I think that she looks *normal*?"

We've really lost touch with what reality is, imo.

Echo, we live where we live... If we don't teach children what media is and how it's manipulated (something I do myself for a living), then they don't develop good media manners IMO. Sure, my daughter had ideas about girls and boys before two, with no tv. She was living In a world of all female sitters and nannies who loved babies and little ones, and daddies (and mommies) who dropped in at night with office jobs. I think it only overwhelms them and us **if we let it.** My mother was an engineer and it didn't matter what the world said or what happened on TV, I saw her living it. I think kids can handle complexities, and it isn't just media that teaches them to value or devalue themselves. It's the personal life that either reinforces it or doesn't.

Which is a long way of saying that so long as we guide them, they will never say what this blogger said, or let it hurt their souls if it's said by someone stupid.

I have not read all the reactions (but fully intend to). I read the MR post and I have to say I have a lot of admiration for her confidence and ability to face something as cruel, stupid and untrue, but still painful, with aplomb. At her age! I couldn't have done it.

Beauty and intelligence start with genetics but they both depend a lot on effort after that. Of course ability and will to exert effort are also genetic. Not sure why effort is looked down upon and everyone is supposed to be naturally beautiful, brilliant and slim.

Biscuitsmom - No you do not have permission to say anything like that about yourself ..... especially on a forum where we believe ... women of all shapes and kind can be and ARE beautiful.

And I understand (from your previous posts) that it stems from the people around you. Please get rid of the poisonous people around you. Life's too short really and you get just one chance to live it the way you want. Loads of hugs to you x

That guy seems like a terrible person with shallow ideals, and I feel sorry that there are people like this out there bringing others down with their negativity. The greater damage is when some people absorb & believe these messages to be the truth and limit their potential & confidence. I think there have always been insensitive & mean people (men & women) like this and there always will be, and part of the role for people like us is to counter such negativity in whatever way possible - by educating others, by recognizing the role of media, or even by just being kind & compassionate to those we meet.
Thank you for putting up this post & sharing this, I have spent a lot of my teens being ashamed of my body because of some very negative comments by my mom about my developing body. Most recently a female reader of my beauty blog congratulated me on my weight loss saying that she now had faith in my reviews since I had lost weight. The implication being that if I don't fit the regular mold of 'beauty' my views & voice on makeup is less relevant.
Posts & discussions like these remind me that I am not alone in experiencing this, we all have struggles related to acceptance of how we look by others.

I have always thought of Leandra Medine as beautiful. Not in a conventional way, but still really compelling, interesting, chic. She is photographed a lot and I always find her stunning.

So I find it really sad that she would be judged thusly by a male. I'm not surprised though, as I find men can be attracted to pretty but boring looking women.

I have no idea as to what the expression can even mean. However, I think we can pretty much ascertain the level of maturity and chivalry of the enunciating moron. Ah, what a fool. As for the rest, stereotypes, assumptions and the many other "grand scheme" issues at play here, I don't know if those are something that we, as a global society, will ever be able to change. What is between our individual degree of control, is our reaction to them. I honestly have a blanket "f*ck them" for these situations and I DO know what that means, lol.

I haven't read all the other responses yet, but wow does this infuriate me. And the men making these comments are ugly as F themselves! And what the...Kim K doesn't wear makeup? What are these people smoking? And of course you don't have to go to college to be smart, but George Clooney has finally "met his match?" Er, I don't think so, because if he met his match he would be engaged to someone who attended two colleges but never graduated from either one, not someone who graduated law school and can speak 3 languages. I suppose we should applaud him for not dating another 20 something model.

I'll be back to read the other comments later. Now it's time to get ready to go be a positive role model to the second graders. I think I'll give lots of compliments on all kinds of beauty today.

Is there some irony to a woman who has labeled herself "man repeller" publicly shaming a man for saying he was repelled by her?

Traci - Well, if you took the term at face value, sure. But man repelling is about dressing in a way men don't get, not about some dude deciding you're ugly.

Gah. Mochi, I haz teh angries about your doctor's letter!

Leandra Medine is a very beautiful woman, and more to the point she is super smart and ridiculously successful. Smart and successful enough to intimidate that man, obviously, who felt he had to play the "looks" card to assert his (rightful, in his mind) supriority.

It has always been thus. It's not enough for a woman to be awesome, she has to be awesome AND beautiful. And not just beautiful, but not-too-beautiful, and stylish, but not-too-stylish. It just makes me want to rage. The whole concept of women as appropriate objects of evaluation by men makes. me. cray. zee. (And yes, I know it goes the other way, but not as much as not to as grave effect.)

Why is there such a great need to focus on the negative sayings of one person. When we could garner thousands of complements but, only pay attention to the negative. Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder. I would rather have a gentle soul, a kind word spoken, a kinder thought to be expressed. I believe that how I look and how I perceive myself can help or hurt my own self esteem. I think that there comes a point in ones life that were must accept who we are and surround ourselves with people that accept us for who we are and not how we look.

It breaks my heart to read some of the thoughts that you dear wonderful people think about yourselves. But I do understand the process of thoughts that can make one believe that that they are ugly. Weather it be negatives from outside or inside. To truly know ones own beauty is to know that physical beauty fades with time but the beauty of spirit will always remain. At the end of my life I don't want people to remember if I was beautiful or not. I want them to remember the warmth, goodness of charter and the helping hand that I have tried to extend.

Peace be unto you all.

Ladywone, so true!!!

I'm told it takes six positives to undo a single negative. If only it were the other way around.

Second MsMary's comment, especially the last paragraph. What saddens me, though, is that we, as women, are still discussing and being outraged by the idea that our worth is tied to our appearance. Refuting that attitude was a big part of the feminist movement that I joined in the 60s. We didn't hate men; we just hated the attitude being inculcated in both men and women that a measure of a woman's worth as a human being lay in some stereotyped view of her "attractiveness".

And, can I just say as the mother of sons, I'm really dismayed at the "men are idiots" tone that I see cropping into these discussions. Both my husband and my sons would be in the front lines attacking anyone, male or female, who made such a despicable comment. All of them have worked in environments with female supervisors and colleagues, and have, unfortunately, had to endure stupid generalizations and bad "jokes" about males made by females that were just plain rude. Idiotic remarks and bad attitudes aren't limited to one gender.

WOW again ! Such great stuff.

Sorry, Gaylene. I can see how that comment was hurtful. However, I have known so many men who were not raised or socialized like yours who feel justified and secure in how they act and judge. And unfortunately they vastly outnumber the good ones I have also known. I only wish more men were like yours!

I loved reading all the posts, even when some of the episodes some of you talk about made me sad.
There are many good points here but one that I wanted to mention particularly Gaylene's last one.
I have a daughter so i cannot really say what I would do beyond speculating about it, but from my friends that have boys I heard only one of them saying actively (and doing it) that we have to teach boys to respect women, to be responsible in their relationships.
Coming from Portugal which is still a patriarchy if there is one I see that women are in great part guilty of the way men treat other women. Sons are given less,or none, chores at home than girls, usually no one monitors their activities or what time they have to come back home when they go out, it is still fun and accepted when boys have several girlfriends(sometimes simultaneously) and girls are supposed to remain at home until some man deigns to marry them, sons-in-law are treated like kings while daughters-in-law are bellow dirt.
There is an old joke(and this being a joke outlines the problem perfectly) of a woman talking about the people their son and daughter had married:
" My son-in-law is the best, he comes home and helps my daughter with the house chores, but my daughter in law is the worst. My son comes tired from work and she hasn't done anything, sometimes he even has to make dinner."
And if you think this is bad the view on intimate relationships between couples is even more frightening.
Sometimes we women are not only part of the problem but the ones that keep it going.

Just to add( because apparently I haven't written enough), DH is a lovely respectful man and I am delighted to have some other incredible, intelligent and true gentleman men as friends.

I'm reporting in to say that my Marine and I talk endlessly about topics like this -- gender bias, looksism, respect for women, etc. -- and we have for years. When he was in training he overheard his roommate having a heated conversation with his wife on the phone, and after the call was over my son said, "If I were your wife's father, I would punch you in the face. I don't want to hear you talk to her like that when I'm in the room ever again."

I am quite confident I have raised one of the good guys.

MsMary I wouldn't expect anything different from you

MsMary, your son is awesome.

IK, no apology needed. I've been lucky to have been around good men for most of my life, but that doesn't mean I haven't met some ugly specimens over the years in my classes and as colleagues. One particularly prized specimen--a portly, ex-military, middle-aged man from Central America--attempted to intimidate me the first day of class by announcing that he couldn't conceive of any woman being intelligent enough to teach him anything. I started laughing while the rest of the class sat in stunned amazement; I pointed out (as nicely as I could) that he wouldn't get his degree without my class and that, short of bribing me with an impossibly large diamond, he'd better decide if he was going to sit down and learn something from a woman, or leave the classroom and depart from the university without his degree. He sat down, did his work, and completed the course. At graduation he thanked me and said that he realized after our first encounter he would be able to continue in the course as long as he thought of me as a man who wore a skirt. The fact that I could play chess competently apparently made the illusion complete. I didn't know whether to laugh or pound his head into the pavement, but I settled on pitying him for his small, twisted life.

But Celia makes a really important point. It's we women who need to raise our sons to admire women of accomplishment, to speak respectfully of them, and to see women as colleagues, administrators, and bosses, not just as girlfriends, wives, and mothers. To me that was what 60s feminism was trying to achieve. To my mind, letting children think of themselves as self-involved princesses and princes leads to a whole lot of agony for their future partners--and for the rest of society, as well.

*time to jump off my soapbox, now*.

You go, MsMary's son!

Gaylene and Celia raise some good points here. I read through the thread earlier and hesitated to point out that women and girls can often perpetuate this kind of behavior just as badly as men. I've seen and heard plenty of "mean girl" behavior from women who insult or criticize the appearance of other women. It's not just men.

Bottom line, we all need to be kinder to ourselves and others. Male or female.