Beth Ann, too funny! Sleeping with your pastor, indeed. Cute. Your comment really resonated (aside from that part).

Here's the rub. On one hand, I don't want to look matronly or frumpy. On the other hand, I don't want to be told not to look matronly or frumpy.

See how difficult I can be? Angie gives much of the same advice and it doesn't bother me at all - just as when my mother gives me advice, it will get under my skin even though I'd be fine if it was my sister telling me the same thing.

I think it's the snittiness quotient. Angie has none. Tim and Ali are really nice people, but they have that soupçon. It's amusing until it becomes too much.

Well, I'm very late to the party, but I do get where you are coming from, Una. My hackles have gone up plenty with DH since I embraced baggier pants and he decided to say I look like a midwest housewife who's given up on life. I have a feeling men wouldn't dictate so much if they were expected to wear skintight pants, 4" heels, thong underwear, and underwire bras all in the name of appearing taller and thinner and perkier... or whatever the male equivalent would be (taller, more broad-shouldered, more bootylicious, more... endowed??).

However, I do also see where Tim is coming from. He started off saying that most women he knows want to look taller and thinner. I feel that, if I had a friend who kept saying she needed to look taller/thinner... and then kept showing up for lunch in cropped pants and baggy sweatshirts... I might raise an eyebrow or cock my spectacles at her, too.

When I was a size 3, I used to have clothes ranging up to size 16.
I often wore oversized things. I think I did look thin in them, though,
because they fell in folds. They weren't hanging there like a box.

I like Tim Gunn, and his comments are usually very respectful and polite. I think if the producers of the show had billed it as 'How to Look Taller and Slimmer' the tone would have been about positive sartorial decisions. Since the title was about 'mistakes' the tone was doomed to be negative.

I sometimes wonder about the ofttimes scathing way some stylists address their TV clientele, and wonder if it isn't a kind of adverse Pavlovian conditioning? If I had some sharpe critical expression sounding in my brain every time I picked up some item of clothing that did me no favours, I'd be pretty quick to put it back!

Hmm, just trying to get a handle on this thread:

We are women who know what we like and don't like, so we resent elderly WASPish males, skinny WASPish females, and husbands/SO telling us how we ought to dress. Angie is the exception; her rules ought to be followed (see PPL, nude hose, and Lululemon pants).

We think our husbands ought to take our advice when it comes to clothes because most of them are clueless about fashion.

We accept criticism as long as it isn't delivered as criticism.

We want others to admire our outfits and to think we look good in our clothes but we also want the right to define what "looking good" looks like.

Have I left anything out?

I know exactly what Vildy means. When I weighed 35 lbs less than I do now, I could wear the paper bag waist suede pants and look good because they draped nicely and if anything, they emphasized my thinness. I could never wear that style now so it has a lot to do with your size.

I think a key difference between the way Angie delivers the message and the video is that Angie is dealing with people that she knows and the video was an open message to everyone and no one. It wasn't personal as it was not directed to a person.

I agree with the points he made too. Large bold patterns can make one look larger and cropped pants can make one look shorter. There is a large section on most fashion sites including YLF on dressing your body type. The suggestions are all about making the most of the positive and diminishing the negative.

ETA: Thank you for posting this thread Una. I have read the entire thing and found it very interesting and informative.

I actually find Tim Gunn's style advice to be spot on usually, pretty classic stuff. I think his campy, biting patter is just his schtick, his media persona. If he was a sweet, kindly man who extolled the virtues of yoga pants, he wouldn't be on TV.

WOW! Where do I start with this thread.

Great one, Una! I also don't know Tim Gunn well but Nicole nailed it. He has a TV persona that is compelling to most woman. Much more compelling than someone who is "kind and gracious" like me - and I do thank you for your sweet words. I totally get why your nerve was struck too though. This is fashion - an EXTREMELY subjective topic - and being told that something is an outright blunder gets my knickers in a knot too. Especially if your approach is modern, creative and accepting, which I believe mine is. Tim's general advice is great. We have spoken about all of his talking points at great length on this forum!!! The advice gives the majority of people a starting point. We know how to bend the "rules" - makes things more fun - but lots of people prefer an "eat this, not that" recipe. I prefer to offer solutions for challenges as far as possible. But my approach is not for everyone either.

Rachy, Vildy, Gaylene, Rae and Beth Ann, you crack me up.

Cathy! I so agree with you! We dish out advise on what men should wear all the time. I take no issue with Tim Gunn offering style advice as a bloke.

Una, I'm glad I don't get under your skin

Gaylene, Suz, MPJ, Rachy, and Dianthus, thanks for being so nice.

What are Angie's rules for Lululemon pants? I must have missed that post - and I need to know - cuz they are pretty common around where I live, but I continue to refuse to spend that kind of money on exercise clothing. (Sorry Una, don't mean to go off on a tangent on your thread!)

I am also glad, Suz, that I did not die from lettuce poisoning!

This dwells on my mind a bit, because things can turn serious and bad. Like when you're 5'9" and a sturdy field hockey type and your mom and dad want you to be 95 lbs. One 3-minute video talking about a proverbial *5 lbs* is entertainment. 40 years of grandma, ma, dad, and step dad trying to limit your diet to lettuce plus that 3-minute video... is not that healthy. You have to choose who you'll follow, but you can be overwhelmed.

My mum got this guru. Ok ok. I know. But still, I realised that we were really hurting him with our unconscious snittiness. Entertaining constructiveness is what we'd normally call it if people objected... maybe it was because he was the new age guru, but for whatever reason, it did get through that he was experiencing it as cruel, non-stop torture. Not even directed at him.

Anyways, I love Angie because she has a generous heart. I do prefer, personally, to be built up into shape than to be cut down to size. That said, Tim is a cutie and Ali is a genius in the kitchen.

p.s. Gaylene! Let's have tomato soup!

No more comments from this particular peanut gallery, but just have to chime in again to say that this thread is hilarious. Rachylou and Gaylene, your comments were off-the-charts funny (and true).

I have mixed feelings about Tim Gunn. I love him, then I hate him. It goes back and forth. I'm sitting in a cafe and could not hear, only see his advice. And really, I agree with his pointers. I think the capri issue could be extended to include ankle pants (no pun intended).

His interview on Oprah on 6 fashion don's after 40 got to me (the hate feeling). The interview is not posted anymore, but here is something that covers it. http://www.fabulousafter40.com.....ion-donts/

Then again I browsed his book and I loved him.http://www.bing.com/shopping/t.....D?q=tim+gu

If women stopped listening to gay men about how they should dress, there would be no fashion industry.

Una, I thought about this some more.

I think our feminist sensibilities sometimes conflict with our biological programming. Here's the thing: we want autonomy, choices and control over our lives. Everybody wants those things, and as women, given the fact that historically those things have been unavailable to many of us, we are perhaps a little extra sensitive when we are feeling judged for our choices, or if we feel our autonomy is diminished by being told what wear to by someone else -- especially when that someone else happens to be a man. I get that.

On the other hand, we ALL -- men and women alike -- enjoy feeling attractive. That's the biological programming bit. And because women are almost certainly judged more for physical beauty than men are (again, probably a function of biology, but something that culture can modify and perhaps overcome), it's natural that we get our backs up more when being told what we should look like.

I think the trick is to remember that attractiveness is so, so subjective. Some women are heavier than others. Cropped pants and floral muumuus accentuate plumpness. But, y'know, contrary to what media images suggest, there are a lot of people who find full-figured women attractive.

Of course, although you clearly have mixed feelings about your personal shape, I should point out that nobody would identify your figure as a full one.

IK, you said what I was thinking!

I find Tim Gunn really interesting. Almost everything I have read about him refers to him as the icon for manners, politeness and propriety, and yet he says very snarky things! I am not offended by him, but fascinated by how he gets away with it.

His advice in this video is clearly intended for non-fashion oriented women and general guidelines like these are not a bad way to start for someone that is really not interested in going very far with fashion.

There is no comparison to Angie's ability, in the face of all the different personalities that appear on this site, to make us all feel special and empowered and good about ourselves. I think it is a gift even greater than her (incredible) style sense.

I like Tim Gunn and miss the show he used to have. I think he could be speaking to an audience not as involved as many of us are in style and fashion; women who want rules to follow as a place to begin.

LOL IK

I really resent anyone who tries to foist their prescriptive "rules" on me. The sooner it stops the better imo.

When you look around the internet all sorts of people have all sorts of rules for dressing if you are taller, shorter, larger, smaller.

If this stuff worked
1. They would all agree - they don't.
2. Everyone would be dressing perfectly everyday - we don't.

Imo it is a process that involves ones mind as much as ones body.
The best teachers give advice & share their experiences. Angie for example is a knowledgable teacher who gives a gentle push now & then but allows us to work it out for ourselves.

Caro, you have said it beautifully!

I love Tim Gunn! I do take his advice with a pinch of salt though. Sure, I can find me a "tracksuit alternative" but it isn't going to be a jersey dress with low heels - it'll be Lululemon (had to get that in there for Marley - I love Lululemon workout gear!) cargo style pants (not the tights, which I agree, can be purchased for $6 a pair in Kmart) with a simple, but colourful tee.

I think that particular video is quite limiting though - "knowing" Tim, there was so much more behind his responses, but he was trying to get so much into so little time. I agree with what he said, but I wish, for everyone else, that he was able to explain it further!

I'm somewhat neutral about Tim Gunn. I know who he is, but haven't watched him enough to form an opinion about his personality. Regarding this particular clip, I believe it has some merit but could have been done in a nicer way. I prefer Angie's kindness. Still, maybe some women respond better when a style guru like Tim Gunn tells it like he sees it, without pulling any punches. I personally prefer a much gentler approach; something like, "These capris look okay, but they'd look a lot better if..." I also think stylists should explain why certain prints can overwhelm certain people.

Thanks ladies - what fascinating comments. I guess this shows we all have different ideas of what ruffles our feathers. I can see even from the few clips I've watched that Tim is not mean the way a couple of the shows I've seen (what's the one where they shred your clothes in a tube?). And his advice is all sound. But clearly I do better when led by example and encouraged with kindness. Thank you, Angie!

I can't watch the video (at work) but I just wanted to say that I love Tim Gunn on Project Runway. On that show, he's not snarky at all and is a mentoring persona to the contestants. I'm afraid to watch the video now and see another side to his personality.

Sara, I have never watched Project Runway, and apparently I am off the mark by judging him on this video. it was the 5 pounds thing that really got me. Don't worry, I don't think this video will change your mind about him. I've been doing more reading on him since getting so much feedback here on YLF.

I think the shred the clothes in the tube show is "How do I look?" with Jeanne Mai.