This article on JC Penney angered me - YouLookFab Forum

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This article on JC Penney angered me

medusa

Veteran

I came across a review of the new JC Penney store in Manhattan, in the Critical Shopper column of the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08.....wanted=all

It really made me mad. It is obnoxious and sarcastic. The author seems to think that if people who aren't a size 2 and don't have a large budget to spend on clothes deserve to be mocked. It made me realize that I'm so used to this forum's inclusiveness that I've forgotten how snobbish people can be.

General

25 replies

Latest reply was from Chris

Maya

Veteran

I was sort of with the person in the beginning, but once I got to the part about the "obese" mannequins I wanted to strangle her. Yes, finding a size 2 is hard at JC Penney, but it's actually pretty hard ANYWHERE. I don't go around getting angry and casting blame on others just because modern sizing is accommodating a modern figure. Yes, there is a problem with obesity in this country, and yes, we are getting bigger faster than ever before, and there are all sorts of disturbing social and political reasons for it...but that is all beside the point. At the end of the day, people need to get dressed and look good regardless of all these factors. And that isn't even her concern. Her concern seems to be that being a certain size is just inherently unstylish. Also, I love how she asks "who is Allen Schwartz?" It's like her ignorance is like a badge of honor that she wears proudly :p

The reason I could kind of see her point was that JC Penney does need some re-thinking IMO. I would rather see a Target, which carries plus sizes and is inexpensive, but has some genuinely stylish options. I do find a lot of JCP's clothes on the dowdy side, and the faux-designer handbags that are all over the place are pretty tacky, especially in a place like NYC where on any given day you will see 50 different women carrying the real thing.

That said, I have lots of things to say about this woman's attitude but I promised Angie to keep my filthy mouth off the forum. She seems to acknowledge that JCP is capturing a previously neglected market in Manhattan and that Manhattan boutiques are largely for the rich and thin, so how is this a bad thing? It seems like the implication is that this market SHOULDN'T be catered to.

taylor

Veteran

Agreed, this woman has an attitude that would make me run. She must not have many friends:(

She also completely missed the point...this store has something to offer those who cannot afford high priced (often over priced stores like AF) for school clothes etc. And she may not believe it...but there are those who can WELL afford the finest most high priced garments but just won't spend that kind of money...Penny's is just fine for them...hey, something for everyone. In this economy Penny's will be doing just fine:)

I could not believe her take on the manniquins, just how out of touch is this woman???

marianne

I've been kind of puzzled by NYT style section in general - it often has snobbish or gossipy tone that doesn't go along with the rest of the paper. I understand that they are not supposed to be a big authority on fashion, but it's still strange that they allow it. I don't want even to begin the argument about the content of the article

RoseandJoan

Veteran

AAaaaaargh, 1,2,3,4,5,6.....7........8.............9..............10 (take a deep breath)

I agree with everything that has been said on the thread already. Yes, as Maya has said there is a problem with obeisity in the western world, however there is also a shocking problem with intelligent women starving themselves to fit a stereotype of what the New York Times and other media consider beautiful.

This forum allows women of all shapes, sizes and nationality to trade information on style. I have said in a previous post that there is enough design talent at all levels and to suit all budgets.

If you happen to shop at that store, hold your head high because this lady is clearly out of touch with the world outside of her microcosm.

Message to Medusa - on a side note I have told my husband of the style of many of the members on the forum but your user name is the one that has stuck. Going on the internet is now referred to in our household as 'speaking to Medusa'. I also posted an apolgy on the styles of academia thread after reading your post.

Christie

Wow ... going beyond the offensive size and socioeconomic comments, she even makes fun of the *font* in the logo! Her snobbery reminds me of young teens nitpicking a peer to pieces, even down to a "wrong" colored ponytail holder or off-brand backpack.

Coincidentally, I happen to be wearing a darling sleeveless button-down purchased on the (gasp) sale rack at JCP for $7 last week.

Angie certainly has created a sweet style place for us, and her encouragement regardless of size, place, or budget is praiseworthy.

marianna

Veteran

The author has some severe fat-phobia. I'm angered at why one would have such frightening disdain and hatred of overweight people? The author also seems to imply that all Middle-Americans "waddle"; that anyone who doesn't shop at Chanel everyday is clearly overweight and unkept. That the middle-class is pretty much disgusting. (Let's not forget that the majority of the population is middle-class!)

And if the author is annoyed that she can't find a size 2 in ONE store, imagine looking for a size 16+ plus in a "normal" store. At least the author can go into any store or cute boutique and find something that fits! Us waddlers have to really sweat to find something in our size!

I have to wonder if the author has an eating disorder.

Michelle

(website)

Veteran

They always say the bully is the most insecure person in the schoolyard, and I certainly get that vibe from reading this article. Perhaps the author is so desperate to attain a certain class and aesthetic that she's willing to resort to such appalling comments and dated stereotypes simply to preclude the possibility of identifying with the plebs. Unbelievable.
Thanks for sharing this and reminding us all what a special place Angie has created!

judy

Veteran

Isn't the NYTimes always a bit snobby? (don't hit me! :)!) I used to read it at the laundromat and wonder WHO exactly is their demographic? Do these people exist in the real world?

The article is ironic because the author herself doesn't realize that the size 2 she wears today is already the result of "vanity sizing". Thirty years ago she would have been a size 6! I know because it's my "size" and my body hasn't changed, just the number on the tag. She is obviously enjoying the vanity of the resizing she is critical of! That's going to be a humbling moment when she realizes she is not really so different from those thick waisted tourists that shop at Penneys :).

I figure the resizing must be an economic necessity...? But if you have ever shopped vintage, you can see how much the tag sizes have changed. Resizing doesn't really matter that much to me. It's NO cause for meanness. I do want everyone to have good fashion choices, whatever shape or size, or wallet.

Maya

Veteran

Noooo I love NYT and I live in the real world! The magazine is excellent. I don't find it snobby at all, but I don't read the style section (surprisingly). It's certainly MUCH better than watching network news on television, which usually an exercise in tolerance for me.

The woman who wrote this article reminds me of Karl Lagerfeld. She was probably "fat" all her life, but as soon as she lost the weight, was all too eager to join the same club that used to mock her.

bella

(website)

Veteran

I think this was her in junior high and she still blames in on JCPenney:
"with a too-similar wannabe logo that announces your inferiority to evil classmates as surely as if you were cursed to be followed around by a tuba section.”

judy

Veteran

Oh Maya, I was probably ONLY reading the style section! and the theater section...not the news. It does seem like magazines and newspapers sometimes project an image of a lifestyle that have little to do with the lives of their readers. Like Vogue...it would be easy to think we all summer in the Hampton's or an exotic island :), while wearing new designer outfits! But maybe that is why I pick it up while waiting in line at the checkout. It's a bit of fantasy.

Did Karl Lagerfeld used to be heavier? I didn't know that.

The idea of big or too big is so cultural. I lived in Hawaii for two years and there were these amazing Samoan women who were wide and tall and strutted their mumus with great pride. They were awesome! It seemed to me like they felt beautiful because the way that they were was celebrated. From what I could tell, bigger seemed better there. The size 2 NY Times gal wouldn't have found a mumu in her size anywhere!

Mellllls

Veteran

I can't believe that the NYT actually published that article. I own very few items from JCPenney but the few I do are some of the best, quality basics for a low price. And the definately make the best camisoles.

kimlee

Veteran

I read this same article earlier this week and came away feeling very angered and upset. First, I took offensive to the author's comments and implications that people who shop at JCP are "overweight" or "obese". I have posted several picture of myself on this forum and am fairly certain that no one would use those words to label me. However, I am no where near a size 2 and honestly have no desire to be. Second, I frequently shop at JCP for basics such as tanks, tees, and other seasonal items - things that can be replinshed season by season. The low prices fit my budget - newlywed, building a home, preparing for a baby - none of that leaves a lot of extra cash for clothing. However, in addition to basic pieces I have often found very cute items - some of which I've featured on the forum - at JCP.

I realize that the quality of items tends to be better at AT, AT Loft, BR - and when I have the means I like to shop at those stores. But for me, being stylish means finding items that work for my body type, look good, make me feel good AND fit into my budget. And if that means shopping at JCP, I see no problem with it. I am happy to see that others on this forum agree with me.

greenglove

(website)

Veteran

As someone on a very tight budget, I never balk at any store. Would love to shop at Barney's or NM but do not see that happening in the near future. How utterly silly and unfortunate that that article was printed. Fashion savvy has much more to do with
creativity than always having the most expensive, trend setting item ,nothing wrong with that if you have the means and it suits you for reasons other than the label or pricetag. It is funny that designers often get inspiration from streetwear that is far from expensive. The great thing about this forum is the variety of budgets and sizes we all are. I love seeing the beautiful designer clothes some of you can afford and am equally impressed with thrifted, consigned and or less expensive versions of styles being worn in utterly inventive ways. I am not familiar with JC Penny, but just might have a look.

londonkiwi (now back in NZ)

Veteran

I'm not familiar with J C Penny either, however, I do object the idea that the size of clothing you wear is 100% tied to your weight and indeed how healthy you are.

Even at the lowest weight I think that I could get down to, I would still never be a US size 2 or indeed a 4. I think that I could perhaps get to a 6, but it would be on the bigger side of that size. I may be a little happier at that size - until I realised that I couldn't enjoy most of the food I do now and would have to spend at least a couple of hours every day at the gym instead of doing other things that I enjoy.

My younger sister is a US size 2, but the reason for that is that she competes at a national level in NZ in triathlons and has done her share of half ironmans and marathons, her shape (or actually lack there of) has been defined by the amount of training she puts in, which is up to 3 or 4 hours on some days.

medusa

Veteran

I'm glad other people agree with how obnoxious that article was! I was so irritated when I read it.

R&J - that is so funny! Isn't it interesting how families develop their own shorthand terms and nicknames?

On a side note, I saw in the business news that both Nordstrom and JC Penney announced that they are making a profit, while many other stores are losing money in the recession. So I guess JCP is having the last laugh.

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

I kind of feel sorry for someone who is so bitter that they have to be so violently opposed to a store, (not to mention the way that she talks about people of a different size than her). JCP is one of three department stores in my area, so I shop there occasionally. I do have to wade through the stuff (and yes- they carry a lot of synthetics), but I do find good stuff there. They carry micro checks every fall, and I posted about a really nice denim skirt that I tried on there.

Maya

Veteran

I have a feeling this woman is facing a lot of angry letters.

Judy, no offense taken. I have never read the style section before yesterday, just the news.

Karl Lagerfeld was indeed "fat" (by fashion standards). He actually wrote a book about his weight loss and diet program. I am not sure what he was like when he was fat, but he is annoying as anything now. He has been known to criticize Heidi Klum for being "heavy" and too busty, and supposedly when his H&M collection debuted he was furious that it was offered in "larger" sizes when he specified that it was meant for slim women only. I can't deny he is a genius and a gifted designer, but he is definitely not a very likable guy. I prefer to know as little as possible about most designers so I can just focus on their clothes and not their outlandish and batty personalities.

Christie

Bella, insightful.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

(Thanks Cricket – good to see you back on this forum).

The retail industry is VERY cut throat. You won’t believe the fashion buying environment I used to work in. It was *just* like in the Devil wears Prada. No exaggerations. I did thrive in it though. I don’t know how and why, but I did. I guess I’m unaffected by this type of talk and have developed a thicker skin. ( Have had loads of practice!) Anyway, I totally understand your anger Medusa and I’m glad that you feel un-judged and safe here on YLF. That's the goal :0)

However, if you cut to the chase, there are true facts within this article of writing. It’s just that the writers tone is terse, rude and cow-ish. No need for that and it’s very unprofessional. It takes all types of retailers to satisfy our numerous target markets and I am SO glad that size specifications and taste levels differ everywhere. To your point Taylor.

Christie

An interesting update --- http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy.....n-apology/

Maya

Veteran

I think this article had the potential to be insightful. As I mentioned, JC Penney DOES need some re-thinking IMO. But she is criticizing the people who shop there more than the store itself, which is why any valid points she might have had don't really come through. If this article had been more about her thoughts on HOW JCP can rebrand themselves, I think I would have been very interested in reading it. I have been in there a few times hoping to find something I liked since it's pretty budget-friendly, but I usually come out emptyhanded.

I don't know how sincere her second apology is but I hope she has learned her lesson.

Also, her criticism of Helvetica just makes me mad. Helvetica is a classic, like the font equivalent of a little black dress.

judy

Veteran

Thanks for the Karl Lagerfeld update, Maya. I'm still laughing at the concept of Heidi Klum being "heavy". (New Project Runway starts next week btw).

If you are a fan of Helvetica, did you ever see the movie about it?

http://www.helveticafilm.com/

I thought a film about a font would be boring, but it surprised me and I started to look at fonts all over a bit differently. But maybe in your line of work you already do that!

medusa

Veteran

Cricket, Thanks for posting that link! I hadn't realized that there is a minor internet furor over this article.

Interesting discussion here, as well. Great thread.

Chris

JCP is the dominant middle market department store. They have close to a thousand (maybe more at this point) of branches all over the USA (lots of places where they have no competition) and while they have gone through many changes (as all retailers do) if anything their mistake may be trying to have a branch in NYC.

JCP has to appeal to all customers to continue making a profit in all their stores. They want a little of everything - a junior customer, a senior citizen (I know we don't like Alfred Dunner but that stuff sells and I doubt you will convince some ladies to forgo it for JCrew), a career customer. Mens, Kids, Home, etc.
It's not cutting edge but they don't want to be!

I think the reviewer could've taken a different tone or not reviewed it at all.
JCP is benefitting from the "any publicity is good publicity" she gave them - I hope!

Climbing off my retail soapbox now....