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The "Jolie-Laide" (or is ugly beautiful?)

Gaylene

Veteran

The French call them "jolie-laide" which roughly translates to "pretty-homely". They use the term to describe a woman who is interesting and beautiful in a non-traditional way. If you google the term, you'll find images of women like Sofia Coppola, Angelica Huston, Meryl Streep, Barbra Streisand, Bette Davis, Tilda Swinton and Charlotte Gainsbourg. Maybe it's my age, but I'm finding these are the faces that make me sit up and take notice.

Angie's recent thread on whether or not being perceived as younger than one's actual age is a compliment got me thinking about why looking young is such an important component of the North American beauty aesthetic. My close friend, who is currently having cosmetic surgery on her face to look younger, is someone who, I think, definitely falls into the "jolie-laide" category. Her face was not perfect but it compelled because of her blazing intelligence and warmth.

Is anyone else fascinated by the "jolie-laide"? Can interesting be more compelling than pretty? Or does youth and symmetry have a stranglehold on our ideal of beauty. I'd love to hear what others think.

General

32 replies

Latest reply was from krishnidoux

Jenava

(website)

Veteran

Ah, I much prefer the look of an interesting face than a beautiful one! And, some of the cosmetic surgery that I have seen people get in order to, say, have fuller lips, sharper cheeks, or some other mainstream beauty concept, doesn't count...that's not "jolie-laide", right? That's just strange and a little gruesome...

HelenInCanada

Veteran

Very interesting topic! I'd never heard the term "Jolie-Laide" before, but I do know the concept of 'interesting but not beautiful in a traditional way". The women you cite are the typical well-known examples. I'd add Angela Bassett, Ellen Barkin, and Alanis Morisette. I'm sure there are many, many more but it's 11 pm and I'm sleepy...LOL.

While you can't deny a stunningly beautiful person is just that...it's also true that aspects of someone's character and "aura" (for lack of a better word right now) really play into how I perceive that person. Ugly and nasty isn't interesting to me, but definitely uneven features, extremes like crazy wild hair or enormous lips and tiny eyes, etc...can be alluring to look at if the person strikes me as worth knowing.

ManidipaM

Veteran

I suspect there's something even more interesting in the fact that we find such faces appealing while we're being bombarded by symmetrical beauty in the media! There is no doubt any longer that we are programmed by evolution to prefer a certain degree of symmetry, certain proportions over others as markers of health, hence breedability --- but is too much of it being thrown at us boring us to death? Enough for us to look for a more distinctive 'look'?

Some jolie-laide of course may actually be attractive because of exaggeration of a desirable feature, or its abundance perhaps overpowering the asymmetry, I think. Which is what Helen has hit on --- extremes and unevenness that draws attention. Angelina Jolie's oversized pout; Alanis Morisette's gorgeous hair and wide grin; Angelica Houston's strong jaw; Angela Bassett's full lips and long nose...

Aziraphale

Veteran

I think interesting is more compelling than pretty if there's substance to back it up. Angelica Huston and Barbra Streisand have talent and personality out the yin-yang. Their interesting, not-exactly-pretty-but-not-unattractive looks add to the fascination....but I doubt there would have been fascination to begin with had it not been for the talent. They would just be regular, average-looking women.

And average-looking people can be perceived as much more attractive than they objectively are (well, as objective as you can be about something as subjective as beauty) by people who like/love/respect/admire them. Ever notice how you generally think of your friends and loved ones as attractive? It works both ways too. How about a person, let's say a work colleague, whom you initially judged as nice-looking, but whose physical attributes seem to become less and less appealing as he reveals himself to be a ruthless, arrogant jerk? I've had that happen more than once, I'll tell ya.

Jenava

(website)

Veteran

ManidipaM, I think the fact that we can be attracted to beauty that isn't biologically based is proof we have a soul (-: Controversial, I know...genetic diversity might say it IS biologically based...

Elisabeth, I was just looking at pictures of Streisand because I wanted to see what she did with her hair (I happen to have a somewhat large nose...) and the woman was seriously stunning. I'm not as much a fan of her recent looks (small glasses, frizzy hair) but her 60s looks were so stunning and more so due to her nose, IMO.

Anonymous

Ah, you've put a term to what I aspire to..."jolie-laide".

ManidipaM

Veteran

Lol, Jenava Goddess bless you! You call it soul, I call it deep perception --- but you're certainly right, we do see 'beauty' that is not biologically based too, even if sometimes biology unconsciously trumps higher faculties. I find that very interesting, especially the how and the where --- mechanism and contextuality.

Oh and here's another fan of Barbra's nose! Mine's a bit, uh, insistent too so her beauty makes for reassurance that it isn't what people are judging my face by, first thing! But really, the most attractive thing about that lady HAS to be her voice --- enchanting. (For some reason, though I can't carry a note in a bucket, I've always been kicked that I share her birthday!)

RandomThoughts (Andrea)

Veteran

I love "interesting" faces. And truth be told (this might be weird) I was absolutely taken with the faces of the goblins and orcs in the LOTR movies. I adored those strange and ugly faces such that I was compelled to do several clay sculptures. It was those big hooked noses, hard mouths and craggy faces. I don't know why but I l-o-v-e them.

As others have said, you cannot deny someone who is truly beautiful but my preference is for more pretty-homely faces for certain.

fashionista

Veteran

Pretty homely for sure.

CocoLion

(website)

Veteran

I think jolie-laide is quite a compliment. There is usually a lot more jolie than laide, particularly in those who are mentioned (Bette Davis, Barbra Streisand, Tilda Swinton, Charlotte Gainsbourg). I think these women are incredibly beautiful, although not conventionally pretty like a TV soap opera actress or beauty queen. I think to be a highly successful actor or star you almost need this quality -- some imperfection, combined with great beauty, to make you interesting. Anne Hathaway is a good example, her features are almost too large. Being perfect as an actor can even work against you. Look at the effort Johnny Depp had to make to create his image of not just being a pretty boy, of having character and depth. His fiercely independent choices for the first 20 years of his career, and his grungey personal style.

Gaylene

Veteran

I knew the YLF ladies would have something interesting to say about "jolie-laide".

Jenava, I'd have to agree that the unintentional consequences of poor cosmetic surgery are in a totally different realm. And I loved your phrase "beauty that isn't biologically based is proof we have a soul." Totally agree with that--and with your love for early Streisand. If you have time, check out 60s pictures of Cher; another stunner before the cosmetic surgeons got their hands on her.

Helen and Elisabeth-- Your thoughts on character, wit, talent, and intelligence as the essence of why we find someone attractive are the reason the "jolie-laide" concept grabbed me.

ManidipaM-- Agree with the idea of "boring beauty". I have trouble with "beautiful" faces that look identical. It seems that one ought be able to distinguish one beautiful face from another, but those magazine covers seem to have the same face from month to month.

Joy, Andrea, fashionista, and CocoLion-- It's nice to know that others also find women with unconventional faces beautiful. I find it depressing when too many women seem to be striving for a conventional type of beauty instead of embracing their unconventional looks.

Jonesy

Veteran

I agree. I am very bored by the cookie cutter Hollywood, reality TV, fashion mag types. Everyone looks the same and has that same unifying glossy, over-worked surface to them. And isn't someone's physical attractiveness inextricably linked to their charisma, intelligence, energy, wit, talent, accomplishments, vivacity? If someone is symmetrically, conventionally attractive and blank, to me they will just seem blank.

rachylou

Veteran

To me, interesting is always more beautiful than pretty. I feel pretty as such (perfectly symmetrical, etc.) is merely undisturbing and more than likely completely unnoticeable. Sometimes I feel people who go after pretty with such lust must be selfish - they want to be with people who don't interfere too much with their focus on themselves... jus' sayin.

Anonymous

Even after plastic surgery, the hollywood types are airbrushed and photoshopped into a generic standard. I honestly cannot tell one magazine cover model from the next. I do admire those in acting or other performance art that are brave enough to stay "natural" and not succumb to the pressure to comform to the current definition of "beauty". I am much more fascinated by someone with talent, charm and intelligence. I find that a person can be technically gorgeous but if they are mean-spirited or unethical, I only see their "vibe" and consider them ugly.

Aziraphale

Veteran

Sorry to be a spanner here, but I see so few people in real life -- not magazine pictures -- who have perfectly symmetrical faces, pretty features, glowing skin and beautiful hair that when I do see them, I DO find them breathtaking. Not cookie-cutter at all. There's a lot of subjectivity, however, when it comes to "pretty features" -- for example, Jenava and Manidipa think Streisand's nose makes her stunning. I just think it's an odd-looking but interesting nose, on a face that is made even more interesting when you take into consideration her intelligence and vocal talent.

Gaylene

Veteran

I don't think appreciating the symmetrical, the youthful, and the pretty is throwing a spanner in the works, Elizabeth. And I totally agree that this "jolie-laide" concept is subjective. But I like this quote from Anjelica Huston because I think it gets to the heart of the ugly/beautiful concept:
"I remember overhearing a conversation between my mother and father...to the effect that Anjelica wasn't going to be a beauty. My way of dealing with that, even then, was: I'm going to make myself beautiful. I might not have physical perfection, but I'm going to think myself into being beautiful."

Maybe that's why I'm drawn to the "jolie-laide" idea. These women had to claim their beauty instead of having it delivered to them via youth, the genetic lottery, or the surgeon's knife. I love the idea of "thinking" oneself into being beautiful.

ManidipaM

Veteran

Elisabeth, I don't actually think Streisand's nose is pretty or stunning --- at best, attention-grabbing. What I meant was that she manages to be beautiful in spite of the 'odd' nose, and that I find interesting and heartening.

By the way, has anyone else come across this series of sci-fi books, on this very topic, aimed at young adults? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Uglies_series Quite creepy when I first read it.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

I enjoyed this thread!

Gaylene, I wear my heart on my sleeve, score 97% on the "F" part of the Meyers Briggs Test over and over again (I'm a very solid ENFJ) - I can't help but judge beauty by how I feel about the person, or how the person is on the inside.

That said, I love all sorts of beautiful, pretty and interesting - both conventional perfection and imperfection. From Grace Kelly to Tilda Swinton. From Beyonce to Ellen DeGeneres. From Joan Jett to Cher. From Audrey to Queen Latifa. From Cate Blachette to Alec Wek. From Ashley Judd to Judy Dench. From Helen Mirren to Gwen Stefani. From Mia Farrow to Meryl Streep. All women that I like to look at.

Mochi

Veteran

(consistently testing INFP, for what it's worth

I know men are not held to beauty standards in general to the same degree we are, but I always thought Adrien Brody had a really interesting, unconventionally attractive face. A young Dustin Hoffman. There are probably lots more I just can't think of right now.

As for women, I also think of them as extremely compelling personalities, great wits like Dorothy Parker, etc...I remember reading someone's anecdote from a party some time back...Playwright/writer/intellectual Lillian Hellman was in her 70s or 80s, and had a throng of much younger men hanging onto every word. Standing off to the side were many younger, conventionally pretty women, feeling resentful and perplexed!

Vicki

(website)

Veteran

Gaylene, this is a very meaningful and timely post to me as a close family member is considering plastic surgery and this has put me in a very introspective mood. So, I wrote to a very good friend for wise counsel and a couple of her very thoughtful comments follow (her entire piece is essay-worthy):

"As I observe my aging process and deteriorating sun-damaged L.A. skin, I've become more aware of women (and men) who have had some "work" done. It used to just be aging movie stars. Now it can be your next door neighbor or high school friend...or family member. It just says to me that they're trying to turn back the clock, that aging ain't cool, and that these people have the money to afford to change their looks. Will it change their lives? I doubt it! Sometimes I'm envious and can feel self conscious when I'm face-to-face with an unnatural face, thinking that I'm revealing too much of myself or that they can see my story on my aging face, since they've obviously disguised theirs. Mostly I judge the fixed face as unnatural and look admiringly at all those who have not nipped and tucked and still remain gracious, alive individuals, only more weather-beaten."

And this: "Everybody gets older, but not everybody gets to be an elder. Becoming an elder involves a lifelong awakening to and reflection upon the story embedded in one's soul." Meade also says that "elders feel inspired to give back the wisdom they've extracted from life and not simply be receiving material benefits."

There's the bottom line, my friend, exploring how to become ourselves and become wise elders in a culture of perpetual youth that does not honor aging nor accept death."

I think, (Mochi, I tested as an INFP and an INTP, years ago) there is natural beauty in "Jolie-Laide" and taking away one's uniqueness by cutting is something that needs to be examined on many levels. Your examples of Cher and others show why. Thank you for talking about this. Somehow we all need to accept our beauty at all stages in life. Whether that involves minor or major surgery or doing nothing is a personal choice.

RoseandJoan

Veteran

Jolie-laide, thank you for introducing a new term!

Do women perceive female beauty differently to males? I only ask because I personally find Sarah Jessica Parker's face mesmerising when she is on screen and yet, if I remember rightly, Maxim readers voted her as incredibly unattractive.

Does taking 'breeding' out of the equation allow us to view a females beauty more objectively?

Gaylene

Veteran

Oh, Vicki, I think I'd love to know your friend. She expresses so well what is going through my mind these days-- the exploration of aging in a culture of perpetual youth. I think it was Angie's question plus my dismay at my friend's eagerness for voluntary surgery just to "look younger" that made me start thinking about how I view beauty these days.

It made me wonder why I don't feel dismayed when I see the signs of aging on my own 63-year-old face. Maybe it's because my idols have always been women who have not been conventionally "pretty" but whose faces and style reflect their courage, wit, and intelligence. They are ones that seem to have found the the holy grail of ageless beauty. I would so like to join that club!

Gaylene

Veteran

RoseandJoan, I'd wondered that myself, but, at least in my crowd, the males (including my two sons) seem quite taken with women in the "jolie-laide" pictures. They also volunteered Anna Magnani and Susan Sarandon as "hot". Sarah Jessica Parker not so much, but maybe it's an age thing?

And I'll give you Wallis Simpson who enticed a king from his throne. And, more recently, Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall, who kept Charles' attention even though he was married to the beautiful Diana.

Vicki

(website)

Veteran

Thanks, Gaylene. She an amazing woman who always thinks outside the box and offers great insight. Yes, you would like her and I'm sure the feeling would be mutual!

Aziraphale

Veteran

Such an interesting discussion!

I'm not sure that men perceive female beauty in a wildly different way than women do, but I'd say that people in general perceive beauty in (sometimes dramatically) different ways, even if there is no personality attached to it. What I mean is, say you're looking at a person walking by, and you don't know at all what they're like, or even what their voice sounds like. You can still form an opinion about that person's beauty, but it might be quite different from someone else's opinion. We're all attracted to different things.

And Sarah Jessica Parker is actually a good example of jolie-laide, I think. If you focus on her face in a still picture, like on a magazine cover, it certainly has a homely qualities -- but RoseandJoan is right, she IS mesmerizing in motion, with a pretty smile, sparkling eyes and charming personality. Animation transforms her.

Jenava

(website)

Veteran

EngineMom - I totally agree, all the cover faces start to blend together and I can't seperate one from another these days.

Elisabeth, agree that conventionally pretty is rare and just as mesmorizing, espcially in person.

I do think, though, that aging is a different kind of "laide" from what I pictured "joilie-laide" referring to. I was thinking this means that even in the peak of youth, someone who looks slightly odd.

As for men, I've always been more attracted to the "ugly" men than the perfectly cute ones. Maybe in my mind it seems more manly to NOT be pretty. I've always thought Al Pacino was attractive...

Sveta

(website)

Veteran

Gaylene, thank you for introducing for this term: I have never heard it before but it is an interesting concept and somehow so French! It was a great fun to read this thread!
When I was in my teens I made a discovery for myself that there are some girls who you cannot call pretty or beautiful but who hold some fascinating attraction to guys, often over much prettier girls. Now thinking back they may have been examples of jolie-laide...
I also wonder how much is here from purely facial features comparing to personality and behavior.

Lyn D.

Veteran

Love reading this one Gaylene!
I have always thought that in some ways the 'jolie-laide' possess a timeless beauty that will never fade. These ladies may not got through as much self-doubt about their worth as they age?
Another example of the male version for me was Patrick Swayze, and it was interesting to note that his brother, with similar features looked very plain to me. Something to do with an intangible inner ' beauty' that is required for jolie-laide?

Scarlet

Veteran

This is a concept that has interested me since I first came across it (I think I was reading something suggesting this was the French reaction to Jackie-O). I think for me personally there are three kinds of beauty: conventional interesting (Salma Hayek), conventional boring (Gisele Bundchen--I would never say she is anything but gorgeous, but my eye just kind of slips over her image with nothing to catch it), and jolie-laide, like Barbara Streisand, Meryl Streep, or SJP. Probably fair to put Jackie-O in there. Her face was truly odd, a bit like a hawk? Incidentally DH thinks SJP is incredibly unattractive. I have to say though too, that Angie's comment about equal opportunity loving of beauty resonated with me as well. I mean I have my preferences, but they are all beautiful and I enjoy looking at beauty. I think what I really don't enjoy is people who change themselves to adopt what they think of as the markers of beauty (thin, enhanced chest, blond hair, youthful appearance) and then the sum of the parts is supposed to be some kind of beauty. I think what really bugs me about that is the loss of self--trying to fit the mold instead of looking into yourself to see what there is to celebrate.

ETA: I guess Elisabeth makes a good point that sitting back and judging celebrities is a lot different from reacting to people in real life. Although in real life our emotional reactions to the inner part of the person probably play a much bigger role. I am probably much more apt to appreciate the good qualities of people in real life and to be less judgmental.

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