self-indulgence vs. self-love--guilt

Elly

i generally feel that guilt is an often misplaced and pretty wasted emotion. Women seem to suffer from a lot of extreme self-indulgence or self-sacrifice in our societal roles as "me-centered" princesses or sacrificing wives, daughters, girlfriends, and mothers. Of course, women are afraid of the negative connotations of the first extreme, so they constantly question themselves. Then there is social consciousness, wastefulness, and the less fortunate-guilt.

Despite seeing these pitfalls on an intellectual level, I feel guilty sometimes. I'm trying to figure out if it is productive or unproductive.

I've been struggling with self-love and self-worth, which means I have been hanging onto a lot of sub-par things, and living my life in clothes that aren't flattering and sometimes not even free of holes. I battle thinking that says that I don't need anything nicer or better because I (or the people that don't care that I exist, or love me unconditionally) am the only one that sees these things or would benefit from better.

I'm unemployed, and don't feel like I've "earned" nice things or new things, despite being in a financial position where I can afford them. Loving myself unemployed is a challenge, but I think it is important to do.

I am working being more confident and taking better care of myself. I want to tell myself that I "deserve" decent quality, well-fitting loungewear, but wonder if this is slipping over the line.

Where do you stand on this dichotomy personally?

14 years ago

General

21 replies

Latest reply was from Elly

Laura (rhubarbgirl)

(website)

Veteran

Oh, I have been there, sister. It's a hard balance to strike, figuring out whether you're being overindulgent, or just kind to yourself. And when you're not currently making money, or much money, it can feel like a waste to spend any unnecessary funds on yourself.

14 years ago

Deborah

Veteran

Elly, its a funny world we live in that, for example, sends us a message that if we are not employed we are not worth as much as someone who is working. I believe it is not what we do, but who we are that is important and that is where our sense of self worth needs to come from.

I suggest to you that we all deserve the best. The best might look different to different people. It can be dictated by budget, location etc

Going off on a bit of a tangent, would you consider doing some voluntary work? This can be a good way to contribute to your community, develop and maintain skills, keep yourself busy and help you rebuild your sense of self worth.

14 years ago

ManidipaM

Veteran

Be warned that my political views are defintiely left-leaning! That said, I have a HUGE problem with the idea that someone not earning is not deserving of a certain basic standard of living. I too wish to suggest that earning money and earning self-worth should be separate issues. A worthwhile human =/= a moneymaker!

I know I come from a third-world country and am therefore supposed to be inured to such things (not speaking of you ladies on the YLF forum, but elsewhere in the wider world, people do seem to have this impression)... but I think hole-y clothing is outside my idea of decent living standards! NO ONE should be so afflicted, except by choice (and I say this in spite of the holes and holey bits in my own closet).

Elly, the 'not flattering' stuff is at best debatable --- I have huge trouble throwing out things that don't flatter and which I therefore tend not to wear but which are 'functionally perfect'; vs things I'm comfy in and wear a lot that are not flattering; vs flattering but not so comfy and hence not worn often. So I really understand where you come from. But I think with holes and worn things, we've crossed over from self-love into guilt! There is NO debate there, to my mind. Those, if you can afford to replace, DO replace.

What isn't in poor condition, I'd try to WEAR (that's my current position, but ask me again next month) and never buy again if unflattering; and if you CANNOT bring yourself to wear them, give them to someone who just might because they can't (unlike you) afford better. Again, this is *my* current position; you may have other reasoning that works better for your lifestyle.

And related to this, Deborah's point really rings true to me: "I suggest to you that we all deserve the best. The best might look different to different people. It can be dictated by budget, location etc."

Coming at it from a different direction, it is my position that everyone deserves abundance and everyone deserves choice --- or the overall progress of civilization and science have been for naught. What 'abundance' is and how 'excess' is defined we can debate, sure. But I'm not willing to debate that anyone can be 'unworthy'. You're not, and I *know* it is hard because I HAVE been there and I DO slip back --- but try hard, really, to let go of the guilt connected to having 'nice' things.

An aside related to the 'less fortunate' argument of social guilt. My mother used to say that cleaning up your plate will not put food into starving bellies; serving yourself less and giving the excess to the hapless will do so. She had grown up during one of the worst famines in our region in modern history --- farming families came up from the countryside to the city in droves, begging for the cooking water drained from rice in affluent homes, to soothe hungry infants whose mothers had no milk. And her wisdom came from that terrifying (doubtless, to a child's eyes) experience that is the best teacher.

Similarly, I often hear people say that you should be ashamed to give less than the best clothes to Goodwill etc --- but while a part of me agrees (deliberately buying shoddy things to give to charity is disgusting!), there is a bigger part of me that holds to my mother's wisdom. It is a worse failure of charity for clothes that *could* be worn to sit around uselessly. Rather than guiltily holding on to an overstuffed closet, pass them on and maybe someone who *can't* afford the replacement (which will make you happier) will have a better use for them. Two happier people for the cost of one garment! The deal doesn't get better than that, yes? Remind your social conscience of that when it nudges you to hoard and importune yourself.

14 years ago

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Elly, I understand where you're coming from. But if you are not loving yourself, you're punishing yourself. You are truly worthy of looking and feeling the best that you can.

I struggled with depression and beat myself up in countless ways until I was in my 40s and finally realized that I had to treat myself well. I wouldn't begrudge other people the things I was holding against myself, so how warped is it to withhold the things from ourselves that we would want for others? A very wise person pointed out to me that I would never say the awful things I said about myself, about another person, especially one I loved.

I had to change my internal dialogue. It takes time, and it can feel like a constant battle, but every time I found myself slipping into a message in my head that I was somehow lacking or unworthy, I would have to stop that thought in its tracks and replace it with a positive thought. I had to practice the kindness with myself that I did with other people.

A big part of that was feeling and acknowledging gratitude. I have learned to turn around negative thoughts (which are based on what we believe we lack), into expressions of thankfulness for what I do have. Whether it's something as critical as my health or the love of my family, or something as superficial as the clothes in my closet or a good cup of coffee, I give thanks every single day. Those feelings have largely assuaged any misplaced feeling of guilt I felt over what I have.

I hope this isn't too touchy-feely for the topic at hand, but I really do feel I wasted a lot of time feeling bad/guilty/unworthy. I think when we focus on being kind to ourselves and others, things fall into balance.

14 years ago

Mander

(website)

Veteran

I constantly struggle with depression, guilt, and low self-worth. Some days are better than others, but I can easily slip into episodes of self-hatred, and I say the most horrible things to myself that I would never say to anyone else, not even someone I despised! So far I haven't really found a solution for this, but it definitely manifests itself in my clothes. I tend to wear the old, drab, ill-fitting things rather than making an effort to put together nicer outfits. Even though I have several newer things, I tend to save them "for good" and wear my old clothes when I go out. I don't take very good care of myself in other ways, either (lack of exercise, excessive self-indulgence, don't take the time to do my hair or makeup, etc.).

It's a sticky, thorny issue. I'm always looking for new strategies to help raise my moods and my self respect, but it is hard to change these entrenched habits of thought.

14 years ago

rae

(website)

Veteran

I'm in a slightly different position, in that I watched my mother "give up" on herself in many ways growing up. It really seems like it is a slippery slope, and a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don't need to dress up for work, so you feel you don't deserve to dress nicely, so you don't have nice clothes, so you *can't* go anywhere nice... round in circles, you know? And the thing is that denying yourself doesn't bring anyone around you joy - in reality, it really hurt us to see that our mom did not value herself. It's only a sacrifice if it benefits someone; if not, it's just punishment, as Janet said.

In my own life, I am *trying* to get to the point where I can feel my best self every day, for whatever setting that is needed. I do feel some guilt in that I have more clothes than I need to accomplish this, so I'm in edit and focus mode, trying to nail it all down. It's a tricky balance, but I think it is one worth working toward!

14 years ago

missvee

Veteran

I think we have all questioned our worth from time to time, when things seem to go wrong and nothing we do can put them right. But things don't get better by treating ourselves worse, if you know what I mean. I think we deserve at least the same care and consideration that we would offer to our friends and loved ones. Thanks for posting this - you've had some very wise counsel from the other responders!

14 years ago

ironkurtin

Veteran

If you don't think you're worth taking care of, then what *is* worth it?

14 years ago

Aziraphale

Veteran

My husband's grandfather always used to say: "Guilt is for the Catholics. Let it go". (Joke! and apologies to any of you who are Catholic for the joke at your expense).

But seriously. Of course you're worth it. I'm not advocating spending more than what you can afford, but everyone is entitled to dress nicely, regardless of whether you go to an office to work, or work from home, or don't work at all.

Having said that, I can relate to what you say about feeling somehow less valuable because you're unemployed. At first, when I quit my job to stay home with a baby, I struggled with the fact that I no longer earned money. I think my job was part of my identity, and in redefining my identity, there was lots of self-doubt. It took a while to get over that. And for my whole life the pattern has been this: periods of great self-assurance, feeling like I can accomplish anything, interrupted by periods of panicky self-doubt. I admit I have a huge ego, but then I often find myself feeling vulnerable and seeking validation from others...which means any self-assurance I have is not total. Anyway, my point is, don't guilt yourself. It creeps in and erodes self-confidence. You deserve nice things, because you're awesome -- and you need to believe that in your heart of hearts, because then everyone else will too.

14 years ago

Aziraphale

Veteran

I thought about this some more. I try to avoid guilt and override self-doubt, and much of the time, I succeed. I'm pretty confident -- perhaps enough so that it intimidates certain people -- but it's an inclusive kind of confidence, in that I want everyone else to be self-confident, too. Because the world would be a better place if every person thought he or she was awesome. It's the guilt, the self-doubt, the feelings of worthlessness that lead to things like pettiness and jealousy. Happy, confident people tend to spread those emotions, whereas if you're unhappy in your own skin, you're more likely to think mean little thoughts about others. (Note: I am NOT suggesting that you, Elly, are petty or jealous! I'm talking the global "you" here).

Back to the clothes. Wearing clothes that make you feel good about yourself (again, global "you") is one way to help boost and cement your feelings of self-worth, which makes you a happier person, and stronger one. And the good feelings spread to others. It's a win-win.

14 years ago

judy

Veteran

So much wisdom here! What a great topic to bring up. We do all struggle with listening too much to the voice of fear...telling us what we are doing or who we are is wrong...guilt! I heard someone say once: "I didn't feel right unless I felt wrong". I could relate.

But inside us there is access to another voice. Love. For me, I wasn't in the habit of giving my attention to that as much as to fear and guilt. We think if only we have others who love us or we get nice things then we will feel good, but it's really about how we use our minds that gives us access to that feeling that comforts. Because lets face it, we can have nice things and relationships and still feel unworthy of love.

To Janet's point about gratitude, as corny as this will sound, I kept a gratitude journal when Oprah was doing it on her show in the mid 90's. The idea was to keep track of ten things you were grateful for that day. At first, it wasn't easy to come up with them.

I began to go through my day looking for what I could appreciate so I could write it down at night. I found it was like flipping a switch. I saw that my attention was in the habit of scanning the horizon for what was wrong, and needed righting...that was it's job, like a primal part of the flight or fight brain...so I felt a lot of tension because of what I was looking WITH, rather than the situations themselves. I felt this simple practice opened a door to a more peaceful place in my mind that I hadn't known was there because I wasn't employing my attention that way... from which to attend to life...in all it's ups and downs... to respond rather than react.

But I've found it's a lifelong process, so please be patient with yourself!

14 years ago

christieanne

Veteran

Manidipa's mother expressed so much wisdom from her experience. How can you give to others/the world when you are in need yourself? I am not a religiously trained person but there is much logic and sense in that teaching.
Personally, I have struggled with giving to much of myself to the world and not taking care of my own needs (not materially but in terms of sleep, play, feeling creative, etc.) for so long that it finally built up to the point of "pinkslipping" my job just to regain my sanity. There was a lot going on there and I just had exhausted any resource I would have otherwise had to deal with it. That's the closest I have come to understanding what a breaking point is.
I would imagine that if we asked those most important to us if it is our job, or something else about us that they view as important and wonderful, they will not pick the job

Interesting question. In practical terms, purging my closet and drawers of outdated, unworn for too long, ill fitting clothing items may just be helping to shed some unneeded emotional baggage?

14 years ago

Kristine

Veteran

I struggled with a lot of guilt when I started trying to dress better about a year ago. I never allowed myself a clothing budget and I'd shop once or twice a year at cheap places. I can't believe the things I used to wear to work. I'm still getting over it but now I shop more regularly and treat the expense just like any other monthly bill.

If it helps, remember that dressing well has a lot of benefits including being a better advocate for the causes you care about. And if you're looking for employment, some new things will help in that regard too.

14 years ago

Elly

Veteran

I have to apologize for not getting back to this thread right away-- I had a rough couple of days and was away a lot.

That said, I really appreciate everyone who replied. It definitely has helped me pinpoint some places where these feelings have been coming from for me.

I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression. I am a generally happy person and very grateful for everything that I have. I grew up in a low-income household and am involved in our local reservation communities, where many people do without running water, electricity, and often social services like school lunch programs and senior centers provide the only good meals that children and the elderly have. It makes it easy to be thankful. Deborah made a great suggestion about volunteering, which I am happy to report that I already do.

I don't have many clothes, and many of them are 5 or more years old and were picked up on deep discount from places like forever 21 and Ross. Most of them are very worn, nicer things that are impractical for casual wear but too washed up to wear as nice clothes, or things that have some big flaw or fit issue which means I only wear them when I am absolutely desperate. I also have a lot of hand me downs . . . sometimes from the opposite gender.

There has been a lot of negativity and hateful things said around me recently, and I am trying not to let them get under my skin. I don't think family members and friends were trying to make me feel badly, but they have, and strangers are even worse.

I guess I just need to hear that not everyone feels that I have to spend all of my 20s in the same 3 pair of polyester slacks "paying my dues" or that because I am not working it is somehow wasteful to buy myself new jeans (with my money).

13 years ago

velvetychocolate

Veteran

I don't think that punishing yourself for not being exactly where you want to be (yet) is a good idea, because all that does is serve to reinforce the idea that you're not 'ok' in some way.

While this might sound somewhat out-of-left-field, I wanted to mention that I used to punish myself in this same way because I was upset and unhappy with being overweight - I'd go on crash diets and refuse to buy myself nice things because I didn't 'deserve it' or what have you. These kinds of habits only kept me "in my place" if that makes sense.

The only way through this sort of thing is to treat yourself as if you already are where you're headed.

You don't have to earn your own self-respect, and you don't have to earn love and care for yourself.

Come to think of it - I cannot think of a better time to get some nicer clothes - as they would probably have that much more impact than if you waited until such time as you felt like it was ok to get yourself some nicer things.

I'm sure you've heard people around this forum talking about the idea of "cost per wear" - and what I'm suggesting is turning this idea around a little bit - and considering how much value you would get *right now* from feeling better about your clothes and your self. It's one thing to get some nice new dress pants when everything's going just fine and you have a closet full of options, and it's a whole other deal when you introduce those same nice dress pants into a situation/scenario of feeling slightly less-than.

Not sure if I'm making sense, but what I'm trying to say is that by getting some newer and nicer things right now, these things will have way more impact and way more value than they would if you waited until you felt like it was "ok" to get these things. It's not just "cost per wear" - it's also how much of a difference certain things would make if you just went ahead and treated yourself well right now. Some $70 pants might be worth $700 or even $7,000 when you consider how much better they make you feel in the midst of a tough time. When you consider how those same pants might make *all the difference* during this time of "not there yet," what if turns out that those same pants were just the thing to help you move forward?

It might be the very best money you ever spend. Even *if* the timing doesn't seem right, and even if you feel like you shouldn't.

What if it makes all the difference? Makes you feel better about things? Helps you move forward with confidence?

I'd say it's a very good deal, wouldn't you?

13 years ago

Elly

Veteran

I appreciate each of you so much for sharing your feelings and experiences with me. This is a major *therapy* thread for me.

Elisabeth talked about identity. I feel like I am having a bit of an identity crisis. Some of you know that I've been dealing with illness. Almost 4 and half years ago I started having issues, ended up in the hospital 4 years ago this month. It took doctors almost 2 years to figure out what was going on with me, and then it took almost a year for me to find someone that was able to treat me more locally after I was released from the research hospital in another state (because of the rarity of what was going on). Last January I had a scare with heart failure, but my doctor was able to catch it before there was any serious damage done to the muscle.

Prior to becoming ill I worked mostly doing semi-skilled physical labor. I was really good at my job, strong, and I loved it. I was also very active in the outdoors-- scuba diving, hiking in the back country, rock climbing. I went back to school in an area of study where most entry-level jobs require fieldwork. I loved it. I was 3/4 of the way through my degree before we figured out what was going on with me. I finished the degree, and then went back and took some additional classes trying to increase my marketability in an area of the field I was more physically capable of working in with my new limitations. During that time period I went into heart failure. While I don't have any permanent heart damage from that episode, but my heart still isn't working efficiently enough to pump enough blood to my brain to oxygenate it fully. I'm getting enough to prevent brain damage, but I have been struggling with cognitive issues (my speech and memory). Communication has taken a hit, and I have a whole new appreciation for people that have suffered from strokes---- it is hard to be nice when

This entire time I've been told repeatedly that the issues I've been having will get better and that this is treatable and it is possible to get me back to a functional baseline even if I won't be able to do the physically taxing fieldwork. That is great, I feel very lucky, and we are still working on it. However, now I have graduated and I can't exactly sit around and do nothing. I'm not able to go on to a graduate program at the moment because of the cognitive issues. Obviously I can't go back to work in any of the areas where I have a lot of experience (i.e. doing physical labor). I've been looking for work that I can use my educational background and the skills I've gained doing the occasional internship and odd job (I still word process 65-70 w.p.m., have a lot of practice filing, keeping records, working with spreadsheets, research, drafting correspondence, in addition to more specific experience working with archeological and museum ethnographic objects and art and community members from distinct cultural and political communities and some of the legal issues and laws governing those interactions). However, between the economy, my lack of paid long-term experience doing admin. type work, and my cognitive and physical issues it has been really difficult after that job I thought I had lined up fell through.

It isn't just the unemployment, but having to change what I base my self-worth on because so much of my confidence and identity was wrapped up in being a great communicator, physically strong and active, and very intelligent and capable. Of course, I'm still a very capable person, and intelligent but I've found that it is a lot harder to share all the positive things about me with other people.

While I was dealing with the initial shock and scare of becoming ill, especially before I knew why I was having chest pain and passing out, I wasn't watching my relationships as closely as I normally would have and should have and unfortunately did not catch the warning signs that I was involved with an abusive person until the man I was engaged to for several years became outright violent. I've done a lot of work to deal with this, but it didn't help my confidence any.

In the last two years I've first moved to be closer to family, and then moved in with my family when my health situation escalated. I feel very lucky that I have a family that is in a position to welcome me and is willing to accept me back into their home. Still, it has been a difficult transition after not living at home since I was 17. Since moving back to the community my parents have been in my life in a HUGE way (I've mentioned before about my family letting themselves into my house with the emergency key or taking packages off the porch for safekeeping when I lived in the neighborhood). Obviously my family loves me very much, but like most people we aren't perfect. They have been under some stress lately, which never helps. I've done a lot to try and get my folks, friends, and other family to understand my illness-- but unfortunately it is complicated and invisible for the most part and I do struggle to communicate when I am not feeling well. Anyway, there have been some hurtful things said recently, mostly based out of stress, ignorance and old-fashioned ideals about employment and women's place in the family (earning a place in a household) and reinforced by the comments and actions of others that I'm sure didn't mean to make me feel badly. Like Rae said, my own mother has struggled her entire life with self-esteem issues and not caring for herself has impacted everyone around her. I also have a close friend that had a very bad experience with an ex-wife who was they type of lady that spent indiscriminately with no mind for their budget, and I don't think he realizes how hurtful his comments about her behavior can sound when he makes generalized statements.

Anyway, I think the last straw for me that prompted this question was stopping by to visit a couple of women I consider to be professional mentors and hearing them snark about another woman in the office. Basically making generalizations about young women "that haven't worked for it" and haven't "paid their dues" as struggling young professionals like the mentors apparently had in their 20s.

This thread has really helped me sort out why I've been feeling this way. I typically am not a person that feels this way, but it has been a really rough couple of years. I'm really not a wasteful person, I've been wearing the same clothes from the same two medium-sized shopping trips 3 and 5 years ago and I am really down to comfy and functional but not-fit-for public hand-me-downs and the odd clothes and what I would call "the dregs" that haven't gotten worn out because they weren't comfortable or functional, don't still fit right, or needed major help (you know those skirts that you realize you have to alter the heck out of, or can't find a top that looks good because they really need a tucked top, but the skirt isn't lined and it is a nightmare?). Still, it is hard to get past the voice of everyone saying that you don't need clothes that are fit for public if your not out in public working or going to school everyday. Less public time makes it seem almost ok to just wear the odds and ends, until you actually do that for a considerable amount of time, because it doesn't feel good to never feel like you are putting your best foot forward.

I really do hear what you all have said about taking care of yourselves, and I am going to try and sit with it and let it soak in.

13 years ago

ironkurtin

Veteran

Elly, I am sending you karmic energy. How did the things I sent you fit? Would you like more?

13 years ago

Janet

(website)

Veteran

Elly, you have been through a lot, and yet still so young!

Like IK, I'm sending you good vibes too. You are clearly a sensitive and very bright woman with a lot to offer. I think you deserve all the best!

13 years ago

Debbie

Veteran

Ella I saw this earlier but didn't have time to comment so I am chiming in late.

You are a kind and generous young woman. I know this personally as you were my secret Santa. Please turn some of that kind and generous spirit inward. You deserve to look your best. You are unemployed but you are still are a vibrant young woman and you deserve to present yourself to the rest of the world as such. Please keep us posted and take care of yourself. It is not self-indulgent it is self-preservation.

On another note I have some things to pass on and so does my daughter. If you are interested PM me your size.

Remember you are kind and generous and treat yourself that way.

13 years ago

Adelfa

Veteran

Elly, you are dealing with a lot! Sometimes when I'm in a situation with bad things I don't control, it can really help to pick something small to do that I can control. For instance, cleaning out a drawer at work when there is stuff going on. The drawer doesn't fix the big things, but it makes me happy whenever I open it, and makes me feel a little less helpless.

I think going ahead and acting on your thoughts about buying a nice new item or two could do that for you too. You would be saying all kinds of nice things to yourself, and then when you wore the things, they would remind you that in the middle of everything you can still act!

13 years ago

Elly

Veteran

Janet, Debbie, and IK-- thank you for the kind words and karma points! I could use them.

I pm'd the two of you.

Adelfa-- you made a great point. Small projects can make you feel accomplished.

13 years ago

Category