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Debbie

Veteran

I took my grandson to the city reading festival today. We had a great time. I have a question for you wise ladies. I overheard two conversations today while waiting it line. One was you can't read that it's a girls book. One was you can't read that it a boys book. Both kids were told to pick another book. I was shocked because if he is reading I am happy. I would have never thought to separate girls books from boys books. Am I just behind the times? Does it really matter? I want my grandson to appreciate books art and theatre and not catogorize it as boys and girls.
All thoughts are welcomed.

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30 replies

Latest reply was from Debbie

UmmLila (Lisa)

Veteran

I've never heard that before. And I have a kid, now 16, who has been a voracious reader for most of her life.

Debbie

Veteran

UmmLila-thank-you for commenting I was just shocked. I would not discourage any child from reading.

JAileen

Veteran

I saw an 11 year old girl on TV recently who had started a book drive. She said all the books she was assigned to read at school were about white boys and their dogs. I was really impressed how articulate she was. She said reading a book about girls helped her better relate to the story. I think this is different from the situation you described, but I thought it was very interesting nonetheless.

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/.....kgirlbooks

Debbie

Veteran

Thank-you JAileen. That was very interesting. A different perspective.

Echo

Veteran

As a reading teacher, I wholeheartedly support children having access to a variety of books with characters of different backgrounds, but I would never label a book as a "boy's book" or a "girl's book". We often try to give children books that we feel will resonate with them, and that often involves main characters who share their gender, but that never involves criticizing their choices for independent reading.

Realistically, depending on the age of the child and whether they were capable of reading the titles or back covers of the books independently (or whether these were books that parents would be reading to the child instead), I can see gently guiding a child toward things you know might hold their interest better. Children who love trucks and construction equipment might not be delighted with a book about fairies, for example. But to outright dismiss a child's choice when they are capable of reading the titles and the covers themselves is disrespectful and patronizing. Children have interests and are capable of making choices about what they want to read.

JAileen, I could list multiple books about "white boys and their dogs" that I had to read in school, so I know where the girl was coming from! Fortunately, most schools have moved past such outdated curriculum.

rabbit

Veteran

I think representation (seeing yourself in art and pop culture in an empowered light) is important, and also diversity in reading -- how can you empathize as a young person with people who are different from you (and you might never meet) if you can't put yourself mentally and emotionally in their lives? That's what reading is to me.

I always thought the best authors were the ones who could write the inner lives of both male and female characters completely convincingly, and have a lot of respect for male authors whose women and girls ring completely true to me.

Virginia Woolf quoted Coleridge saying that great minds, creative minds, must be androgynous. She uses Shakespeare as an example of a mind that contains both female and male elements, "that is resonant and porous; that it transmits emotion without impediment; that it is naturally creative, incandescent and undivided." I like this thought.

Eliza

Veteran

As a long ago teacher, a parent and a frequent classroom reading group volunteer, my take is that kids being able to choose what they read matters. Of course, school work requires some assigned reading; yet reading choices are what can set the kids enthusiasm for the process on fire.

I have enough trouble with primary and pastel Legos being sold by gender. Let the kids choose and chat with them about the books. Yes, there are books I might want to expose a particular kid to, based on who they are or what they are experiencing. To suggest a book is gender inappropriate wouldn't occur to me. Empathy can be a good thing.

If there wasn't ample exposure to appealing books, with characters my kids/future grandkids could relate to, I'd be happy to consider ways to fill the gap. Will check out your link jaileen. Sounds thought provoking and balance counts.

Enjoy the grandkids. Aren't books fun to share?

Debbie

Veteran

Thank-you ladies for your thoughtful comments.
Both of these children today were reading on their own.
Echo I was hoping you would chime in. I enjoyed reading your perspective. Children do have do have interest and are capable of making decisions. Sometimes I think as parents we can forget that.
Rabbit-I love your thoughts on this and it gave me plenty to think about.
Eliza-I was also a teacher long ago and that is probably one reason I was so shocked today. I think there should be a balance in material made available for children to choose from and luckily the cirrculium of required reading isn't as limited as it was years ago.
The Lego thing also drives me crazy!

Maneera

(website)

Veteran

I find this strange....but can understand why this has happened over the years. I was always an avid reader...even as a kid. No one ever told me Tom Sawyer was a 'boy's book' or that Heidi was a girls book. I do remember that girls would love Nancy Drews while boys liked Hardy Boys ---- but I used to read so fast and our library didn't have that many books so I just read them all.

I suppose it's easier to market books to girls or boys these days. Damn shame though.

Helen11

Veteran

I would have been surprised and disappointed to hear those comments, too. Gender specific everything for kids drives me crazy!

rachylou

Veteran

So I guess what most surprises me (tho I'm not surprised), is being told you can't read something. There is no book banning where I come from. I don't, however, mind gendering things. While the differences aren't what people often think they are, there *are* distinctive differences that matter quite a bit and which I wish people hadn't tried to gloss over in my youth. And I know no matter what my mother tried to tell me, I wanted my frilly girl stuff. I most certainly did not find it a thrill to get Hotwheels on my birthday. Little children do and do not listen. Hehe.

rabbit

Veteran

Rachylou, but is wanting the frilly girl stuff just about being 'you' though, and liking what you like? I think there are feminine and masculine qualities but I think people of all genders have some of both, mixed up and expressing in different ways, and sometimes an individual leans more heavily into traditional camps in their interests, but sometimes not. Maybe the important thing is letting kids know that both sides have value. It's great to like fairy wings and/or trucks, neither is a 'lesser' interest.

I was a little girl who had no interest in dolls whatsoever, but was totally into stuffed and plastic animals, and appreciated Legos and construction sets because then I could make paddocks and stables for them. My favorite books were adventure stories involving rabbits, horses, and the trek to destroy the One Ring, (which was a sausage fest aside from Eowyn, lol).

By my preteen years I was into early Madonna and experimenting with makeup, but I don't remember reading anything particularly gendered -- P.G. Wodehouse? Piers Anthony?, Maybe those problematic Pern novels...

rachylou

Veteran

Oh I was clear in my own mind about it - whether or not I was accurate is another matter, lol. For example, I played marbles and went rock climbing in my Mary Janes and froufrou dresses. Making me laugh even more, oh yes, I'd play marbles but you couldn't tell me marbles weren't a boys game. If I recall from the studies, there's a whole multi-year phase for children where they self-segregate by gender.

Caro in Oz

Veteran

Grr

http://ideas.ted.com/why-boys-.....irl-books/

Gaylene

Veteran

I agree with both Echo and Rabbit, but I'm not so sure I agree with the author's indignant reaction in Caro's link. If an author deliberately chooses to target a book to a specific audience, I'm a bit sympathetic to someone who declines to read the book because he/she is not a member of that audience Telling me I ought to read such a book because it would be "good for me" would make me resist it all the more.

I think the best children's authors create protagonists whose gender disappears into the story. Male or female--it doesn't matter--because the character becomes universally appealing to any reader. One of the books my junior high students universally adored was " When Jays Fly to Barbmo". The protagonist was a teenage girl, but not a single boy ever objected to reading a "girl's book". In the attempt to re-dress gender inequality, though, some authors choose to put gender in the foreground; in that case, it doesn't surprise me if the appeal is less than universal.

rachylou

Veteran

I have to agree about that, Gaylene. If a book is about a person, that gets my attention.

Btw, still hate boys adventure books here. I've tried to read them. I don't know how boys slog thru them with such enthusiasm... Hehe.

Debbie

Veteran

This has been very interesting.
My personal choice is to expose my grandson to as such as possible and not to limit his choices.
The article Caro linked to is interesting. When I went to school if we had an assembly everyone went. You read whatever you were assigned. If we don't expose children to all kinds of art they will never be able to make informed choices.
Rachylou-I love it! I can see you rock climbing in your frou-frou.

rabbit

Veteran

Caro's essay got me curious and I read a little more about the author and the gutsy girls book: https://www.brainpickings.org/.....line-paul/

I came away thinking, heh, boys adventure books have nothing on this author's life. She apparently intertwines history with her own non-fictional close calls paragliding (she also flies experimental aircraft), firefighting, and climbing Denali. Also she talks about fear, not being perfect, and perseverance.

So yeah she explicitly addresses young women, and focuses on female adventurers throughout history (representation matters), but really it seems quite short-sighted for the school to assume her story and her writings wouldn't be interesting and important for boys as well.

Debbie

Veteran

Rabbit that's what I thought to and if they are not exposed how do you know. Drives me nuts. There are a lot of children who are not encouraged to read outside of school so to me exposure is the key. Gaylene I am going to look into the book you mentioned.

texstyle

(website)

Veteran

I don't know if I've seen this type of thing with books so much as with other things - toys for boys vs. girls, activities more boy/girl oriented (boy scouts/girl scouts) home economics classes vs. shop, etc. I imagine when I was young it was also with books but my parents weren't very observant or involved with what I read so I didn't notice so much.

Caro in Oz

Veteran

Rabbit puts it beautifully, "So yeah she explicitly addresses young women, and focuses on female adventurers throughout history (representation matters), but really it seems quite short-sighted for the school to assume her story and her writings wouldn't be interesting and important for boys as well."
That was my point. I don't think this is about the author pushing a female protagonist at the expense of her art. Yes she is trying to redress an imbalance but then so was Dickens.

rachylou

Veteran

Actually, I'd like to read a book about boys thinking about being boys. I see lots of books about girls like this, but not about boys - not in a long time. I mean, simply having the protagonist be a boy doesn't count nor does being categorized as a 'boys adventure book' (which in my mind is mostly determined by an extremely flat writing style and lots of detail about how the old sailor tied his knots).

Anonymous

Debbie, your question reminded me of the years I spent doing Chat and Chew, an elementary school book discussion each month during lunch time. We would meet and discuss a book that they had read. During the summer another mom and I read zillions of kids books to pick out the ones we would do the next year. We wanted books that would appeal to both boys and girls, and that was difficult. Books where a female character had to be brave, or, as Gaylene said so well, where the characters' gender disappears into the story.
No one should tell a child that they can't read a book because it isn't for their gender or that a book is too young for them. I'm with you. Just be happy that they are reading.

Debbie

Veteran

Thanks Joy!
I really appreciate everyone comments on this thread. You have given me plenty to think about.

TraceyLiz65

(website)

Veteran

We haven't gotten beyond this craziness with kids yet? Alas praying my children's generation takes that step,lol. Every generation does it a little better than the one before....

rabbit

Veteran

Rachylou, if by 'boys thinking about being boys' you are including books that reflect on or show boys grappling with interests and inclinations outside of male stereotypes (dancing, cooking, knitting, dressing up, and taking care of a doll for example), they are out there, although most of the lists I saw were aimed at very young children:

http://www.whatdowedoallday.co.....types.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2.....063940.htm

Okay now I'm remembering. When I was at university, I went to work at a very progressive summer camp with my boyfriend. The camp told us when hiring us that they liked to challenge gender stereotypes and so if we were happy with it, my boyfriend would be the cooks assistant, and I would be in charge of the tool shed. He knew very little about cooking, and I was kind of hazy on tools, but they said we could learn. We loved our jobs. I developed biceps from hammering, made stools, repaired plumbing and have a permanent scar from a utility knife that slipped. My boyfriend learned from a good chef, became a great 'throw something together' intuitive cook, I married him, and he's still the primary cook in our house.

rachylou

Veteran

That's a very romantic story, Rabbit!

I guess I was thinking of longer, more self-concious books for older children. But actually, now that I think more on it, I can't think of any 'what are boys made of' type books from the past that aren't little kid books either...Heh, I don't know why, but the fact that women out-enroll men in college these days has popped into mind.

Ok, so here's my home ec/shop story: mine was the first class where boys and girls had to take both in junior high in my town. I was the only girl who got an A in shop because the teacher didn't like girls in his shop but I would ask him to show me how to do things. Haha! My grandpa was in hardware. I can use power tools just because. I knew what shop meant. Home ec...now there we all just learned about the many things that could be done with Captain Crunch and orange concentrate, ahaha! I learned to cook from my dad at home too.

So much education wasted on me! The social living teacher hated my year. It's what happens when a town is several years of births into being hippie: the children are not excited to be liberated.

rachylou

Veteran

I have to add one more story: In college I worked with a guy we shall call Texas Larry. He actually grabbed me, pinning my arms to my sides, so I wouldn't climb a latter to put some stock away, because I was a girl. Called me 'little lady.'

I don't call that chauvinism: I call that psycho (!)

Robin

No, you're not behind the times. The people you overheard are! Seriously, whatever a child wants to read is absolutely fine. This idea of "girls' books" and "boys' books" is unrealistic in the extreme. Signed: Robin, who doesn't think that *any* book, movie, toy, hobby, or activity is off limits to anyone if it's what they want or are interested in.

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