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Ranting and raving

Maya

Veteran

I saw this on Imogen's blog a while back and kept meaning to post it but forgot. It just makes me mad (I am full of anger today! First $200 leggings and now this?! Roar!).

This was published by Marie Claire Australia regarding the "ideal" size. Note that these are in Aussie sizes. I'd say that they range from a US 0/2 (Aus 6) to a US 12/14 (Aus 16).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VpLS.....claire.jpg

So...I'm actually getting really sick of this trend of women getting down to their skivvies, or totally naked, to prove some kind of point about the female body and attractiveness. It's so utterly degrading and misogynist. I'd like to see overweight or "imperfect" men do the same thing in an issue of GQ or something. The fact that one of the women has a blue ribbon pinned to her picture sort of makes me sick to my stomach. Are they cows being auctioned or human beings with feelings? I'd feel awful if I were that size 6 girl. I briefly felt awful when the size 8 girl (my Aus size) was deemed the second least attractive...but I had to remind myself of all the reasons why this survey is bunk and I felt better, including the fact that: the models are beautiful and perfectly proportioned hourglasses, all white, all young, leggy, with flat tummies, and airbrushed to high heaven. Frankly, every one of those women is beautiful and I would rather have ANY of their bodies over my own! If they were trying to validate me or make me feel better as a "real" woman, they failed miserably. Once again, I am being given the message that my shape is unsightly because I'll never have a flat tummy, curvy hips, or perfect proportions. Unlike the catwalk waif, this is supposedly achievable and "real." And yet for me and many other women, it's not any more achievable than the catwalk waif is.

I realize that the hourglass is the ideal shape. It has been all throughout history. It is ingrained in our biology and will probably never change. I really don't need to be constantly reminded of this! Technically I am an hourglass and it *still* makes me feel so frumpy and unfeminine when I constantly have to read this information. I can't even imagine what the poor apples of the world feel like. Actually, I could imagine it because when I was told that my secondary body type was apple, I had a terrible complex about it, even though logically and intellectually I knew firsthand how stunning and well proportioned apples can look based on the YLF resident apples.

Perhaps I am just insecure, I don't know.

General

19 replies

Latest reply was from Kristen

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Maya, Maya, Maya, Maya, Maya. My dear Maya. I hope you're off to bed! You need a cuppa tea, Lucie and a good night's sleep.

The reason this was probably printed was because women - the target audience of the magazine, like to read stuff like that. Men, quite honestly, couldn't care. In my experience, women are much harsher on the physical attributes of other women than men generally are. And you are hard on yourself. I've dressed your fab little body a few times now and it's a very enviable body to have. I bet those models would love to have YOUR body.

RoseandJoan

Veteran

Maya, you are not alone in finding this type of article offensive, my blood boils ever time a feature puts beautiful, healthy women in competition with one another. Women of all shapes and sizes are beautiful FULL STOP. Just look at the beautiful art in your museum, the female ideal had changed so much through time.

The majority of women who voted the size twelve as ideal would still have insecurities about their body if they were the same weight and size (12). Why we have to be so hard on ourselves I do not know?

I know you have a US version of How to Look Good Naked but in the last series of the UK version the ladies had a twenty foot image of themselves in miss matched underwear hung in a very public placed. Were asked to stand naked in a prominent shop window and strip on a catwalk in a very busy shopping centre. Surely you can give a lady additional confidence without ritual humiliation? I certainly can't imagine Angie speaking to her client about 'BAPS' or 'WANGERS'

Right I'm annoyed now ( should fuel some production at work today)

You are not alone Maya and you are beautiful!

shana

Veteran

Well, I compare this to Dove's "campaign for real beauty" where women were also stripped down to their "skivvies" but sent the message that you were beautiful no matter what shape or size you are (because you could still have beautiful skin when using Dove's products!! LOL).

I agree with both you and Julie that this type of competition among women is so unhealthy & unnecessary. To play devil's advocate, perhaps the point was to let women know that the size 6 AUS is really not the ideal as most of us would expect. Certainly that is the size of most models and many actresses which can put so much pressure on the average woman (who is probably closer to a 16 AUS).

I don't think that the hourglass has been the ideal throughout history and certainly not in every culture.

JuliaInGermany

Maya, I think you should stop comparing yourself to women in magazines. You are ranting about how women are judged by their size or their body shape - yet you do the same. Your talking about the "poor apples of the world" makes that very clear. Actually nobody but yourself is giving you the message that you're unsightly. Just because the size 8 model wasn't voted very attractive in comparison to the others does not say anything about you (in fact it doesn't say anything about HER either).

This article is about comparing the women shown in the picture. It is not about whether a size 8 or a size 12 looks better in general. And it is surely not about what you or I would look like in comparison to the models. What you need to learn is to shrug your shoulders and say: "I'm different."

marianna

Veteran

Maya, us poor apples of the world just shrug it off and learn to live with it, or we are perpetually unhappy. We all have a choice in the matter, regardless of how we look naked. We can hate ourselves or we can accept ourselves. I've stopped thinking of myself as a "poor" apple because it was exhausting. I'm an apple. That's not a bad thing, and I can change it if I want to.

Vani

Veteran

Maya, I'm right with you. I was very ticked off when I read that article on Imogen's blog. And it is sad how this obsession with the image of a perfect image of a woman has trickled down even to our interactions on a more personal level. I have never felt as judged as I am now at a size 10 than when I was a size 12/14. Friends, family - everybody seems to have this concept of the contemporary, modern woman in their mind - thin, trendy, high heels, designer bags, the whole deal. What I call classic and timeless, my MIL calls old-fashioned and traditional. I often get, "You look plump in this outfit" remarks when I go back to visit. My little ethnic print fabric bag which you have all seen and approved and I love, she rejects outright in favour of trendy designer bags. Most of my male friends think a woman simply has to wear heels to look "hot" for an evening out.

Having to fight battles every day to even be able to dress the way you want is exhausting. Yes, we must be indifferent, but one must be extremely confident in their body and style to be completely unaffected. My confidence levels have soared since coming on bard YLF but I am still not at a point where I can shrug off anything and everything negative. One friend once told me - "Come on, walk like you own the room" at 5 am at an IHOP after a whole night of dancing. Puleez, I don't even want to be walking right now. I have every right as you to just be me and be comfortable. The expectation levels of the general public are just hitting manically annoying proportions.

There does seem to be a certain amount of pressure on men, but they get along fine as long as they don't have big beer guts and don't wear denim cutoffs. I am just thankful DH said to me once that he likes me best in outfits that I look most comfortable in.

I don't think anyone (off the runways of course) even glorifies hourglass figures anymore. All they want is a stick with D cups in tight clothes. Arrgghh.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Where is the article? You've just linked to the pictures, Maya. Is that right?

I'm not riled up or offended and that might be because I haven't read the article - BAPS and WANGERS? What are those? Either that, or I just shrug things off like Marianna :0)

I am of the opinion though, that the more you stir the pot of "sh**", the more it stinks. (This sounds much better in Dutch because it's a Dutch saying so excuse the bad translation). Some topics should just be left alone because it doesn't do anyone any good exerting energy on them. Just breeds more negative energy - which is not a good thing. This is obviously one of those topics.

Maya

Veteran

My point was that this type of "news" has had such a profound effect on me that even though I am exposed to "real" women every day, on and off the forum, and I see with my own two eyes how beautiful they look, I still have all these mental blocks about certain shapes. It is totally irrational and has nothing to do with whether or not those shapes are or are not attractive...it's just a complex I have developed. As I said, maybe I'm just insecure. Heck, I probably am. Maybe most apple ladies are perfectly happy, and if they are, good for them. They deserve to be happy with how they look. Certainly the apple ladies of YLF look great. So it might just be me. However, I have a feeling it isn't because I remember reading Trinny and Susannah's body shape survey and finding that the apples were the least happy with their shape out of all of their 12 body shapes (I think it was 12). Angie, maybe you aren't bothered because all those years working in the fashion industry have built up a callous (similar to why you don't get offended by age appropriateness).

I don't know where the article is. It's a few pages in on Imogen's blog. I don't think I even bothered reading it because I found the picture so nauseating.

The greater point, however, is that I find it offensive from a feminist point of view. I don't care if this is what women "want" to read. The reason they want to read it is because they are forced, at every step of the way, to care DEEPLY about what their bodies look like and how their appearance is perceived. If we took away that pressure, these articles would go away. Men have no interest in these articles because no one puts the same kind of pressure on them to care. Even men with beer guts have nothing to worry about as far as I'm concerned, at least not as much as women.

I also found it interesting that in another article Imogen posted, there was a discussion about "role models", again, based on 2 different women posting naked without being airbrushed--one was skinny and perfect, and one was larger with tummy fat. It's very interesting to me that the word "role model" automatically implies body shape and image. Whether either one of them was a role model or not depended mostly on their accomplishments and personalities to me...not what they looked like naked.

When I was a little girl, my mom would watch reruns of Mary Tyler Moore, and she quickly became my role model. She was pretty and slim, but I remember admiring her because she was funny and talented.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

Maya, I hear and appreciate your cerebral passion. You know that :0).

I guess the multibillion dollar women’s fashion industry can’t help but make women think about their bodies and feed into their insecurities. I will also say that things have greatly improved over the years though. It was unheard of to perceive so called “alternative” body shapes, un-tanned skin and facial features two decades ago. At least things have moved along since then, even if the vehicles that relay the message are offensive to some.

You are right in that I have developed calluses to this type of thing. I have and continue to see all sorts of bodies in all age groups. I truly see beauty in all of them and am sincere when I tell my clients, who come in all shapes and sizes, that they are beautiful. And when they actually begin to feel it they are even more beautiful. It’s definitely a confidence thing. YLF is about developing that confidence, and you too Maya are developing that confidence daily.

chewyspaghetti

Veteran

This is also the magazine that featured a 'must read' article about a woman who gave her husband a threesome for his birthday, so I have to consider the source.

Angie

(website)

Fashion Stylist

And the plot thickens.

Maya

Veteran

Most womens' rags...er, mags...are like that, which is why I don't read them! Humankind has been reproducing quite successfully long before Cosmo existed. I think most women will do just fine without their monthly "2600 sex tips" spreads.

marianne

Maya, I find it sad that women spend so much time and energy on this kind of "issues". Men sure make a better use of their time! I could go off on a rant about perpetually regurgitated content of women's magazines, Oprah, etc. but I'll be good Yes, being happy about your body shape has nothing to do with your overall happiness. I also think as you get older, you get more accepting of your body - you are pretty much happy that it functions as there are too many other things going on.

AJ

Veteran

In regards to body shape and happiness...yes, as I get older, I am less concerned about every lump and bump on my body. I think my growing acceptance is two fold:

1) I've learned how to dress for my shape. What I once thought was a hard-to-dress body is now a fun-to-dress body because I know what shapes look good on me and how to use color and print to highlight or diminish certain areas. Where I was once frustrated with looking at fashion mags because I could never wear what they were selling, I now know that I can't recreate the exact same looks, but I can translate the same feel of color or mood or details that will better suit my age, shape and lifestyle.

2) The sum total of my lfe experiences thus far have given me a sense of confidence in myself. It's not fame or fortune that has made me feel this way. (I didn't even graduate from college.) It stems from my great faith in God, the love I feel for and from my fab hubby, the 11 years of parenting experience, the beautiful smiles of my three kids and the fact that I'm still alive and kicking! LOL!

With age, I accept the beauty of "now," and less of the frustrations of the "don't haves" or the "never can attains" because I see how the life I have yet to live is passing faster before me. This is especially true now that the years are marked with how quickly my kids are growing. My baby girl (6) lost her first baby tooth today and I am happy and sad as to all this symbolizes.

I hope you don't think I'm belittling you, Maya. I think we all have felt unhappy with our shape in one way or another. Even "perfect" women would list things they don't like about their bodies. It would be hard to get these mags to stop these type of articles, but as women we can use forums like this and also teach young girls that yes our bodies are not perfect but perfect bodies do not make for happier people. What makes for happier people is happy relationships (whether that be friends, family or a special someone) and the joy of accomplishing things that matter.

judy

Veteran

Maya, I always enjoy your rants here at YLF. Get it off your chest! Having said that, I also wish you peace with your body shape. To me, you are beautiful.

I agree with you that this constant reinforcing of how our body looks is detrimental to women because it's preoccupying. It's so silly to believe that there is a perfect shape, any more than there is a perfect age. But sometimes I do!

I've said this before, but what seems so off about the whole "body issue" thing in our current climate is that we've made the body and how it looks the end in itself, instead of realizing that the body is the means to an end. It's an instrument, not an ornament.

At the bottom line, it doesn't matter what the culture is thinking, it matters what I am agreeing with. That is the real challenge, for me. How do I not be influenced by it all? Or by the parts that nurture and inspire me and reject the rest?

I find that the more I'm using my body to do what I am passionate about, it takes up a more healthy place in my mind, instead of being preoccupied with how it looks. It' allows for a shift of perception, like those foreground/background inkblot photos. The body comes into focus as something I am grateful to have because of what it is helping me to do. The dressing it/feeding it well is mere payback for all it's enabling me to do :). Then I feel as though we are embodying a strength, regardless of shape or weight or age.

RoseandJoan

Veteran

Angie, 'Baps' and 'Wangers' are some of the crude terms Gok Wan uses for breasts.

londonkiwi (now back in NZ)

Veteran

I've been thinking about this all day and is it possible that I can be with everyone on this?

On one hand I wish that women weren't so judgemental of ourselves and of others, but on the other I can imagine that if I was a size 12 or larger and felt so unconfident about my body size that seeing an article like that might give me the boost that I needed then is it such a really bad thing?

I think that Judy, AJ and Marianne are right, as you become older I do think that you become more confident or more confident for the majority of the time at least

I know from experience that those who are considered to have perfect bodies from a beauty standpoint or a functional standpoint don't see themselves as perfect either. I would have loved to have grown an extra six inches so that I could have had a shot at becoming a really good swimmer.

Maya - Please don't take this the wrong way, but while I am content with my body shape, I would much rather prefer to have yours - I would absolutely kill to be a couple of size smaller. When I look at you I don't see what you consider to be the more difficult parts of your body to dress, hopefully in time you will see what I and I am confident what everyone else sees too.

mmm completely random train of thoughts, hope that they make a little bit of sense.

monkeypuzzle

Long time listener, second time caller here. My own body shape and its utter lack of resemblance to anything I saw on TV, in ads, or on clothing racks gave me a complex for many years, so I relate. You know what helped--going to a ladies-only, no-clothing Korean spa. Yes, it's kind of freaky wandering around in front of strangers naked--at first your eyes don't know where to go. After a while, though, bodies quit looking like decorations, like arenas for public commentary and judgment, and they start just looking like ... well, *bodies*. Young or old, smaller or bigger, all functional, all completely different from each other, all value-neutral in and of themselves, all beautiful! Seriously, if you just start looking at them without preconceptions, as abstract forms and curves: beautiful. That's when I just quit comparing myself to other people and just let things be for a while. It's very relaxing.

Not to mention those Korean ladies give a mean scrub!

Kristen

(website)

Veteran

For the sake of fairness, here is the link to Imogen's post and to the article about it.

http://www.insideoutstyleblog......or-16.html

http://au.lifestyle.yahoo.com/.....e-sexiest/

The purpose of the photo and the poll was to see what women and men on the street thought was the "sexiest" size, and the photo did not show what size they were. The idea behind it was to see if model-thin was really what people truly thought was the most attractive body type. Granted, all the women had the same body shape and were fit and pretty, but to do otherwise would have obviously skewed the results. They weren't trying to find out what *shape* was sexiest, they were asking about the *size.*