This is really interesting stuff, and I realize while reading through the thread that I have certain knee-jerk reactions that are very telling. I pay attention whenever I have a visceral reaction to something because it may mean I'm a little too invested in my old viewpoints.

Gaylene's remarks especially made me think about the why's and how's of this kind of dressing. Personally, I want liberation and equality but not through total androgyny -- that would not feel like me, even though I do like a certain amount of it in my style. I don't want to feel like I have to wear something so completely covered to assert my personal -- and decidedly female -- power. Now, that doesn't mean bandage mini dresses and stilettos, but there is a lot of ground in between. and of course, what makes one woman feel strong and empowered in terms of dressing can make another feel inauthentic and uncomfortable. This is why we need to be supportive of other people's expressions of themselves via style, rather than prescriptive.

I am struck by the video lookbook Gaylene posted too -- I find it interesting to look at, and some of the styles are truly very artful. But the ones that look most wearable to me feature fairly standard loose trousers and more voluminous jackets and toppers. (I admit that as someone who is inherently bottom-heavy, I am rarely drawn to looks that emphasize volume on the lower half.) The looks with very voluminous and layered skirts frankly put me in mind of days gone by when women were *required* to hide their legs -- only the ankles were visible, and the styles looked more cumbersome than easy to me. But hey, I do my most strenuous activity in skin-tight Lycra!

Ok, now I have to thank everyone for their kindness and support here. It's sincerely heartwarming. Beth Ann, I loved your use of statistics. I like math.

I wrote this post not because I need to justify my choices but because I was certain from the discussion that's already gone down that my current direction would look weird and unflattering to many people. That's ok, it's their right. But I figured that rather than just shutting up and not posting, it was more constructive to explore what's so very problematic about a different approach to dressing and why it might provoke such a visceral response.

Being an outlier here, as many of you so charitably put it I'm always conscious that what I wear doesn't play to the conventional standards that most people abide by. I've been around fashion on the internet long enough to know that if it weren't for Angie's expert moderation there'd be fire and brimstone raining down on me right now. That's not about me, or you, it's just how online communication works when nobody's there to enforce standards.

I'm very flattered that so many people seem to enjoy what I post and not particularly bothered by anyone who doesn't. But most of all, more than anything else, I'm thrilled to have such an intelligent and thoughtful conversation on the subject without it turning into a flame war.

Thank you. All of you. You're all brilliant.

deleted for being pithy

LOL! Great minds and all that.

I love being challenged, and I don't like to get too set in my ways. YLF has played a big role in that, stylewise.

Chiming in behind the 8 ball to say, once more, how absolutely wonderful this thread is! Thank you approprio. I refuse to hang out on any fashion forums that don't bother to mention Foucault

It strikes me that in extremely conservative cultures heavily layered, voluminous clothing is seen as a way of controlling bodies and sexuality. There are still parts of the world where revealing skin or form is a revolutionary act. Yet, to our western eyes, it's oversized looks that have become a type of resistance and/or rebellion against norms. It's all situational, isn't it?

alaskagirl I had to smile at your description of LV and feeling like you stood out in your sack dresses. Living in LV for a couple years I decided that it's the town where people put their bodycon out to pasture. My mind was always a little blown every time I visited BuffEx or other consignment shops by just how *many* mini bandage dresses there were on the rack. I found that the biggest "statement" I could make as a Vegas townie was to continue dressing (somewhat aggressively) like a New Englander. And of course, now that I'm back in New England, I feel quite a bit more excited about my mini skirts. I'm one of those people who needs to dress a little against the norms, apparently.

Which plays a little bit into shevia's comment about the ultimate power grab (I may have to print that comment out and tack it up on my wall!) -- those moments when the individual spirit is able to lift a look or a garment out of its expected context and make it fully and seamlessly a part of herself, no questions asked, no eyebrows raised...

Thanks all. You've made my morning.

(You thought you closed this thread one hour ago, didn't you ?

I have to disagree with Angie, I don't think an outfit becomes silent because it's authentically you. Here you are, in your oversized clothes that are authentically you, and you wonder about the visceral reaction they stir.

Trying to put myself in your shoes (actually, I'd love to try one of those creepers, lol), I think I wouldn't be bothered by the "weird and unflattering" noises, that's just the expression of different fashion tastes. I would consider the cultural judgements - denial of feminity, hiding fat hung-ups, etc.

This is highly context driven, as Rabbit said, and I gather from your post, that in your context, oversized clothed are not too loud.

So : rock on.

I think it's rather fascinating how we, in North America, are so inclined towards seeing layered, voluminous clothing as a way of controlling female bodies and sexuality. I've been wired to think revealing my body is a statement of my free will and feminine power--a sign that I can't be coerced or controlled by those who would want to restrict my choices and ambitions. And, yet, when I think of the constant dieting, exercising, maintenance, and self-loathing we North American women put ourselves through in order to "look good in our clothes", I wonder If I'm not fooling myself. Is all this effort actually for ME--or for those who have convinced me I need to attract approving gazes from strangers who find it appealing to see a female shape on display?

I think my current fascination with volume arises from my questioning some of those long-held attitudes I've internalized. I've never felt bad about my body and I've never shirked from revealing it on the beach, in a low-cut top, a mini-skirt, or in private, but I'm now wondering why I've been so willing, all these years, to put my body on public display. Doing so invites comparison--and the images we are given as benchmarks don't do much to promote a positive self-acceptance. As an avowed feminist, I'm wondering if I've been wandering down the wrong path.

I love the strength of your look, Approprio, because it signals a confident femininity to me. To be able to choose--boxy or fitted--IS freedom but thinking about that choice has made me confront my own conditioning. Isn't it interesting how such a seemingly small thing as the cut of a shirt can reveal so much about ourselves? And I'm so grateful for having a corner of this forum where we can explore some of these questions.

I agree with skylurker that reactions can be more about the baggage that comes with culture, and sometimes location specific culture rather than differing fashion tastes.

I think Beth-Ann's bell-curve is a fitting explanation. Interestingly I think that the opposite end of the spectrum - body baring or body con gets as much potential push back if not more than oversized/body obscuring -- and that touches on underlying issues from Puritanical/new England historical attitudes towards modesty in dress, social and economic class assumptions, more recent patterns of immigration, as well as the Pandora's box of feelings about open expressions of sexuality or baring skin (in the US), plus location specific norms -- Vegas baby :).

Caro and others have mentioned the prevalence of seeing ill-fitting over-sized clothes being primarily made for obese people, and I think this can strike a cultural nerve in countries like the US which is one of the world leaders in obesity. (Interestingly Japan and South Korea are are the top of the list of least obese, which might explain why over-sized has a completely different cultural connotation there?) http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/t.....2011-3514- (older info, but the graph is telling, and the Netherlands is closer to Japan than the US in this respect).

Speaking of culture...I'm reminded of how my dad used to say 'don't cut your eyes at me.' He felt that was disobedient. He wasn't American. I had to learn outside the house, here in the US, people want you to look them in the eye: this is a sign of honesty, 'owning up.' Likewise, I remember someone telling me it was actually illegal to wear a mask, cover your face, with the exception of Halloween. And when I walk down residential streets, sometimes I'm amazed how you can look in everyone's windows. Other places, every house is walled off. I wonder not a little if there are parallels with clothing: Western society drives toward openness and transparency. And sometimes maybe the drive is random and indiscriminate.

(Just deleted a bunch of stuff here. Internal feminist narrative blah. It's late. I'll try again tomorrow.)

This visceral “oh no! awful!” reaction though, this is absolutely not a thing where I live. I see enough well-dressed ladies of all generations wearing contemporary high volume looks for me to know I’m not alone. It’s maybe not mainstream, a relatively small percentage, but it’s far from invisible either. Like she says on TNMA, it's always in the background.

I’m really interested in how this plays out culturally on your side of the pond. Gaylene, I’d never thought of it in terms of body image culture, and rabbit, that’s a fascinating insight there about obesity. I’m adding to that what La Pedestrienne says about associations with conservative cultures. Is this perhaps why people respond so negatively?

And rachylou, here's something interesting about masks...

Still thinking about this thread (and am very flattered by the shout outs). I absolutely agree that there is a Western or at least American association with obesity and muumuu dressing and that plays into our first reaction to oversized silhouettes. And also agree that the emphasis on body con, or body show, somehow relates with keeping women obsessed with the size and shape of their bodies.

As a small example, drop crotch or harem styles are quite common in this neck of the wood - not as much as a style trend but a practical way of remaining 'modest' while retaining mobility and comfort. How to draw the line between jeans and burkas and where exactly harem pants fall on the continuum is a question I cannot answer.

What a good essay on masks! Thanks for the tip off, approprio! The thought of one's whole personality being a particular assemblage of masks is something to give pause...! But more to the point, interesting about the idea of short cuts for signaling and the idea of permissions granted through masks. Clothing as a mask - not in the sense of hiding - but in these other ways and clothing making the man, so to speak... Lots to chew on.

Wow! This discussion has been so instructive and given me a lot to think about. I can honestly say I've learned a lot here and I'm still pondering over the implications.

For my own benefit, I went back over the thread and compiled a summary of some of the most interesting comments, mainly so I could preserve shevia's bon mot for posterity. The whole thread is so full of insight, wisdom and opinion that I ended up with quite a long document.

It's worth reading in its entirety of course, but I was wondering if there would be an appetite for a tl;dr digest of this as a separate post, a celebration of the collective wisdom of YLF for anyone who may have missed it.

What do you think?

I like that idea very much.

Yes, compilation of posts would be wonderful. Thank you for all the insight and food for thought here!

I am so tired from an overnight flight followed by a 6AM work shift that I'm just going to link to two of my prior threads which I believe tie into this discussion as well:

http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....s-as-women

http://youlookfab.com/welookfa.....for-pretty

I can't find the designer vision blurb. But there's a new tiny fashion line out of Portland, Oregon. Basically from memory it was something about clothes that were the antithesis of sexy & meant to make the body shape obscured. I however did not get a modesty vibe.

http://www.francesmay.com/coll.....s?q=Howard

I think it takes a supreme amount of confidence to wear such clothes.
And yes like other said there is some things specific to America that makes these looks difficult for many.
Jewelry designer Wendy Brandes, who lives in New York. once bemoaned getting a makeover in LA that was the LA asthetic, Kardashian like. Smokey eyes, nude lips, lots of bronzer, etc. she preferred bright lipstick and more simple eye makeup. Kinda funny to think of regional differences.
Japan is small, and more homogeneous In my opinion. So perhaps different dressing is a way to distinguish yourself, see also harajuki. This may be changing, but until recently I understood that women in Japan stopped working after getting married. A few years ago there was a piece on Decora style in Japan, the women featured were single. One was in her thirties, & lived with her parents. The corporate look is very uniform, see salarymen. Admittedly this is pure speculation on my part.
For me personally I do get some flack for wearing "unflattering clothes".

Very interesting piece about masks. I wonder if clothes don't work mostly in the opposite way : encouraging to conform to social norms instead of encouraging to violate social norms.
Also linked to the "enclothed cognition" Angie mentioned in her Monday post, or "clothing making the man" as Rachylou said.
Though I admit I don't really believe in the magic of clothes, except for specific instances when you embody an institution (magistrate wig, police uniform...). Well, maybe you have to believe in it for the magic to work - for clothes to lift your spirits or improve your self-esteem. I've not felt that effect personally.

As for the digest, if you need it to marshall your thoughts, sure, but I don't think it's necessary, the whole thread is interesting.

Can I just say that I have been loving this thread and following it all the way through; just felt a bit out of my depth in terms of fashion theory and historical knowledge so I didn't comment. I will say, though approprio, that I *love* your style and it is one of my inspirations and aspirations (my other is the very traditional Audrey Hepburn/french girl look, and yet another is returning to my Indian girl roots - I am a cornucopia of opposing ideas )
I absolutely do not feel that you should dress to show off certain body features or fit a conventional description of 'flattering' if that is not your thing, and you are all the more interesting for it. It takes time, skill, resources and expertise to step outside the box the way you have, and I love seeing that. Keep it coming!

If we never look past the cover of a book how we really know what is inside. We all have our own unique style so celebrate it, life is too short to worry about what everyone else think's is cool or dope ect. You be cool.

Una: thanks for the links. I've never had much truck with pretty myself, but I'm alright with her naughty cousins cute, kitsch and kawaii.

annagybe: you're right, gender roles are very conflicted in Japan. I have the impression people use fashion as an outlet for some of the tension and frustration that creates.

Janet, skylurker: I think a lot of people won't have the time or patience to read the whole thread, and that would be a pity because there's a lot of good stuff here. I'll post something tomorrow if there are no objections.

Roxana: thanks! You have a lovely style yourself

Very much enjoyed reading this thread! I wrestle with oversized versus not all the time. Nodding along to many of the thoughts here, and echoing the sentiment of enjoying your creative outfits Approprio. You do volume, oversized, and architecture really well, and always intelligently.

I really need to thank you again for this thread.

What a fascinating thread, indeed, will have to fight me over all these wise comments, too:-).

I surely couldn't add more than all of these, and I love lagen/oversized looks on you and others (and find it very individual, artsy and generally fashion forward) but there are 2 reasons which make me stay away from this style for my own persona:

1. I don't have the body, the right posture, and the lifestyle for doing it right...:-(.

2. You say it so well well " there’s a blurring of the boundaries that brings a lot more androgynous styles into play, particularly among younger people" but I am closer to 50 and I would be afraid to be considered a fashion/or anti-ageing victim.

Than, I was also wondering about your statement in one of your answers here:
" I’ve long thought menswear should be more like womenswear and vice versa...".

Can I ask what started you on these intriguing thoughts? Just curious:-)).

lyn67: my thoughts on menswear/womenswear? that's a whole new thread right there!

Put simply, it's not about loosing the gender distinction, more about how two very different ways of thinking about dress could learn so much from each other and be improved in the process. But I'll leave that for another time.

Not that this thread needs any more input to keep it going, but I just wanted to come back to say I have read almost every word posted here and even thought about it yesterday while mindlessly driving (not a good thing ) somewhere. I was wondering what my own motivations were for dressing as I do, and why I wasn't drawn to a more voluminous, artistic, avant garde, etc style. Am I succumbing to pressures I feel from some unidentified source? Am I being unimaginative and just following the herd? And who do we/I really dress for? Ourselves? Other women? Men? etc. The conversation could carry on for ever. Talk about insightful.

lisap, I've been asking myself some similar questions. Why do I always want to look so resolutely individual? Might people find my style confusing or intimidating? Is it regressive to want to wear big clothes?

I've had in mind a comment you made in another thread though...

"I do think you are bang on with the theory of aesthetic preferences being influenced and even determined by what you already know to be flattering . I absolutely operate that way. I don't think there's anything wrong with that unless one's goal is to constantly reinvent, investigate and create. I'm not interested in always trying every new thing that crosses my path - who has the time?"

I do like to reinvent, investigate and create as you put it, and hey, big clothes happen to look good on me, so it makes sense that I've acquired a capsule of oversized clothes that suit me and feel relevant. I must say though, that I'm also swayed by fashion, the desire to look conventionally attractive and the need to fit in. So I don't think I've ever fully committed to the silhouette.

But I tell you what, I'm liking it right now.

Bear with me as this may be somewhat tangential and I'm not feeling very articulate these days....
In my mid twenties (so 2000ish) I noticed with some resentment that so many pants now contained stretch. Today I get that there is demand for this "flattering" (to some) development in fabrics but really, whatever happened to denim and other thick 100% cotton fabrics, and looser cuts, that skim over rather than clinging to? Why is there even a need for women to worry about "VPL" - I don't think this was a thing for generations past? Men are not wearing clothing that shows their underwear line!
Similarly, in a bathing suit, I'd be personally just as happy in board shorts (and some kind of top) as a women's suit of any type. It is about personal body issues to some degree - my shape has never matched most bathing suit cuts - but nobody is expecting men to shave the body hair to be socially acceptable in their standard bathing costume. So why are women expected to bare so much that hair removal is "required"?
It's interesting to me that while I believe women's clothes have overall trended more bare and bodycon during my lifetime, men's clothes have possibly gotten bigger and looser. Men and boys only wear board shorts for swimming, not skimpier bottoms. Men don't wear short shorts even for exercise. Most women seem to agree they "don't want to see that" when it comes to men. Well, I don't want to show it either.
But it's very difficult to reject the current standards and still have a flattering, current look. I'm not looking to stand out from the crowd and attract a lot of attention to myself/the way I am dressed.

Jules: thank you! I too find it problematic that these standards are upheld, and that baring our flesh is seen as the liberal, progressive thing to do when nobody holds men to up to such scrutiny. And frankly, I think it would make everybody happier if men were required to take more care of their appearance!

lyn67: this is what I'm talking about when I say menswear should be more like womenswear and vice versa.

My own rant just helped me realize something... "flattery" and "fitting in" are part and parcel, for me. I am not a strong enough personality to want to stand out much in my appearance. I have other issues (being in a male dominated profession, social anxieties) that make me feel enough "apart" already, I think. And when I see someone who has truly rejected flattery fundamentals, let's say an older, larger woman who does not wear a bra, to me that does stand out in a way that *I* really don't want to.
btw, I love your looks approprio. Nor do I relate to the "why do you want to hide your pretty figure"-type comments that have been under discussion lately. But I personally need to fit in just enough and some degree of conventional "flattery" seems to be a part of it. Interesting.

And I am also now understanding normcore a bit better, I think... these clothes are less body con and less gendered.